Passive Solar Design – Ideas & Feedback
Try again…first message dissapeared when attaching a file…..sorry if it double posted…not my doing……
Hi All,
Looking a few years ahead to my final retirement home in SW Virginia. The vacation cabin is fine and will be great for occasional guests once the main home is built.
I want to plan well and work hard to design a zero energy home. I’m far more willing to spend time and my personal energy in place of large sums of $. That’s my hobby.
I’m planning to build a shell inside a shell as the primary living space per attachment. The garage and storage will buffer the north wall. Closets will buffer the west. The exterior walls will be of general polyiso insulation while the interior shell will be extra thick polyiso with low-e dual pane insulated windows. Metal roofing and aluminum radiant barrier on all exposure. Once completed the plan is for the entire structure to appear a typical as any current day structure.
? – What type of windows do I use on the East and South? I’m thinking Low-E double pane for the East but finding mixed info on the South wall.
I’ll also be using passive earth tube cooling. Buried Microbial 4″ pipe gravity drained and vented through the sunroom up through a solar chimney/cupola.
Solar water heater & solar + wind + hydro electric. Wood fired exterior boiler unit with secondary gas backup for additional radiant heat & winter bathing. Fireplace for ambiance with heat exchanger for fresh air burning.
I want this to be as self maintaining as possible so that I’ll be comfortable doing abosolutely nothing when I’m 105 yrs. old.
Any other ideas you’d consider?
Pedro – A stubbornly lazy mule
Replies
You should consider burying the house instead. Sure, you have to mow your roof.
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
Earth Home and mowing the roof.........
Actually I'm fine with that idea and have actually been inside of some really nice ones.
Wife says only after she passes on, expecting that to be a long time so I need to build something that looks traditional and behaves modern.
Pedro - this mule doesn't eat roofs
your link didn't work..
sorry..
Have you looked at ICF's?
extremely easy to do and provide great low maintinace exterior/while the interior can be virtually anything you want.. wood, stone, sheetrock, etc..
Extremely energy efficent. Very durable. Very much a do-it-yourself kind of project..
pay attention to the roof material.. aspault shingles in spite of warrantee tend to be about a 20 year and tear them off sorta deal..
Slate or clay tiles is much more durable..
use a standardised low E window but use an decidious tree outside it to shelter you in the summer from heat gain and it will shed it's leaves nicely in the fall to allow the heat to come into the house.. See Mother nature can be your friend!
Couple of other points.. find a small to medium sized local sawmill and check out prices!
Sawmill wood is legal to build with and very affordable.. (CHEAP!)If you want to see what I did with sawmill wood go over to 85891.1 & 94941.1 on the left side and enter those numbers in the advanced search..
Sawmill wood is exactly what you want to build with if you have more ambition than money!
...............your link didn't work..
Yeah I saw that....strangely I can right click and d/l and view but not view from a regular click.....hmmm jpg file.....who knows....
.............. Have you looked at ICF's?
Yeah pretty neat - not really for or against them simply comfortable with standard stick framing and covering with 4" of polyiso over lapping joints. One hesitation is that although it's over 60 acres, getting a concrete truck and pumper in to fill ICF's at the same time, necessary, it's not likely - strange access at our chosen location.
........... pay attention to the roof material.. aspault shingles in spite of warrantee tend to be about a 20 year and tear them off sorta deal..
...............Slate or clay tiles is much more durable..
I'm definitely a metal roof kinda person - had 'em on every home I've ever built
................... use a standardised low E window but use an decidious tree outside it to shelter you in the summer from heat gain and it will shed it's leaves nicely in the fall to allow the heat to come into the house.. See Mother nature can be your friend!
Gotcha, trees a plenty and all leaf bearing
.......Couple of other points.. find a small to medium sized local sawmill and check out prices!
Got one about 8 miles out - going that direction for the barn/stable first and will probably be satisfied enough to go that route for the house.
............Sawmill wood is legal to build with and very affordable.. (CHEAP!)If you want to see what I did with sawmill wood go over to 85891.1 & 94941.1 on the left side and enter those numbers in the advanced search..
...........Sawmill wood is exactly what you want to build with if you have more ambition than money!
I'll certainly check that out - Thank you! I'll never have enough money! Father in law always said I had champange tastes on a beer budget - I cling to my money and spend just a hair on grape seeds, plant them, harvest them and make champagne on less than a beer budget. Its not what you make but what you have left when you're done. All my buddies moved in their first houses 4 1/2 years faster than I did while I built every day after work. Once in I had no mortgage - they still had 25 1/2 years of payments remaining. My first house was twice the size of theirs and used half the energy, next build was even better - next is going to be zero'd.
Pedro - even grow my own mule hay
Well a metal roof should outlast you. So maybe that is a good other choice..
It sounds like you and I have similar tastes and ambitions.. Did you get a chance to check out my place?
Just to give you an idea of just how great a deal you can get from a local sawmill, I bought 50,000+ bd.ft. of hardwood.. black Walnut, white oak, cherry, hard maple etc.. and built my whole house out of it.. Check out my pictures. there is about 35 scattered on those 2 sites.
Lot of fancy wood, really fancy wood for that price.. Big planks of burls, fiddleback galore, wood with a lot of character!
I spent about $25,000 for it.. that's an average of 50 cents a bd.ft.! (for hardwood!)
It's a double timberframe.. White oak timbers inside and black walnut timbers outside. SIP's in between. Very energy efficent.. Using the exact samefurnace I cut my heating bills by over $300 a month in spite of doubling the size of the house and tripling the number of windows..
One option is to rent a small concrete pump and a skid loader. Park the concret truck as close as possible. Then, fill the bucket or whatever and move a batch to the pump. Use the pump to fill the ICFs.
I was able to download your jpg file, but that rough schematic offers no information on building size or thermal envelope structure. If you want good feedback, you need to give us more information. Some of your description makes no sense.
Second, ignore everything Frenchy says. He's the resident ignoramous who knows a little bit about one building system and thinks it's the cat's meow.
I want to plan well and work hard to design a zero energy home. I'm far more willing to spend time and my personal energy in place of large sums of $. That's my hobby.
What you seem to be describing is going to take lots of $, even if you're able to do a significant portion of the work. The incremental costs for that last few percent of efficiency can easily go through the roof.
I'm planning to build a shell inside a shell as the primary living space per attachment. The garage and storage will buffer the north wall. Closets will buffer the west. The exterior walls will be of general polyiso insulation while the interior shell will be extra thick polyiso with low-e dual pane insulated windows. Metal roofing and aluminum radiant barrier on all exposure. Once completed the plan is for the entire structure to appear a typical as any current day structure.
What do you mean by "shell inside a shell"? A double-wall system filled with insulation? A double-envelope system, with two insulated shells and a conditioned air space in between? What do you mean by "general polyiso" and "extra thick polyiso"? Why go to what seem to be superinsulation standards for the walls and then use minimal windows? What do you mean by "radiant barrier on all exposure"? On walls as well as roof? Is the attic floor insulated or is it an insulated cathedral ceiling?
? - What type of windows do I use on the East and South? I'm thinking Low-E double pane for the East but finding mixed info on the South wall.
What "mixed info" are you getting for south windows? How many heating degree-days in that climate? Cooling DD? What is the average daily insolation in BTU/sf? What is the lattitude?
I'll also be using passive earth tube cooling. Buried Microbial 4" pipe gravity drained and vented through the sunroom up through a solar chimney/cupola.
What is "microbial" pipe? Have you investigated this? Earth tube cooling has the potential to introduce moisture and mold, and it requires something at least 3 or 4 times the diameter of what you propose to passively cool a house of any size. Think about the total opening in that cupola and then match it in earth tube cross-section.
Solar water heater & solar + wind + hydro electric. Wood fired exterior boiler unit with secondary gas backup for additional radiant heat & winter bathing. Fireplace for ambiance with heat exchanger for fresh air burning.
Sounds like one from column A and one from column B and...
What makes you think that you need (or the site can handle) three forms of solar generation? Here's where you could easily invest $100,000 just for those systems. Why would you need a 50,00-100,000 BTU boiler for a house that might need 10,000 BTU/hour on the worst winter night? And a gas backup? And why a wasteful indoor fireplace in addition to the chimney cost?
Three electricity sources. Three heat sources in addition to the sun. Two hot water sources. All in a super-efficient house? This makes no sense whatsoever.
You're talking Chateau Mouton Rothschild champaign on a beer budget.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
I was able to download your jpg file, but that rough schematic offers no information on building size or thermal envelope structure. If you want good feedback, you need to give us more information. Some of your description makes no sense.
I'm incredibly early in the design phase, probably finalize and break ground in 4 to 5 years. Been napkin sketching for the time being. Sorry to be so vague but looking for a lot of ideas.....I'll sift through them and then reply with more details.
Considering the slope I have on the existing south facing property, I'll end up with a full basement, main floor containing sunroom directly above and a couple of isolated bedrooms in the 12/12 attic. Wife wants everything on "1" floor but it's crazy not to have a full basement with the slope we have, let's see 10-11 ft. crawl space? Nope and I can't see spreading the floor plan out to include two extra bedrooms used once a year into the typical heating envelope. Wife's concerned about stairs later in life. I figure if I can house and feed the guests for free - they can clean up instead of her.
For greatest contained efficiency I'm going to do my best to keep the floor plan as square as possible so the main floor excluding the garage but inclusive of the sun porch will be approximately 2000 sq. ft. Quite a bit more than is recommended for max. envelope efficiency for two people.
What you seem to be describing is going to take lots of $, even if you're able to do a significant portion of the work. The incremental costs for that last few percent of efficiency can easily go through the roof.
Considering I'll probably be living in it for 50 yrs I'll have to weigh out that last few percent.
Shell within a shell-wall system filled with insulation? A double-envelope system, with two insulated shells and a conditioned air space in between? What do you mean by "general polyiso" and "extra thick polyiso"? Why go to what seem to be superinsulation standards for the walls and then use minimal windows? What do you mean by "radiant barrier on all exposure"? On walls as well as roof? Is the attic floor insulated or is it an insulated cathedral ceiling?
A double envelope - primarily heating and cooling the main floor....basement will be for tinkering and I may put in an optional heater of some sort.....maybe a fresh air fed wood stove but this space will be an evelope buffer as well as the two bedrooms in the attic. Attic floor will be insulated and the rafters above the spare bedrooms will be too.
General polyiso refers to the outer portion of the envelope. The inner primary 365 living quarters will be super insulated unless you convince me otherwise ;-)
All of this is of course based on current limited research, thus why I'm seeking feedback.
What "mixed info" are you getting for south windows? How many heating degree-days in that climate? Cooling DD? What is the average daily insolation in BTU/sf? What is the lattitude?
According to info from the NC State solar research house/center, single glazed windows without Low-E have a greater heat gain than double glazed etc. but they don't retain heat as well.....their test house has a great deal of thermal mass to compensate. With my location I have the potential for thermal mass but only if I incorporate the basement floor into the envelope which I hadn't planned on at this stage....heating degree days for SW VA - 4500......this is slightly above my location 38° 35.9'N....hope that helps
What is "microbial" pipe? Have you investigated this? Earth tube cooling has the potential to introduce moisture and mold, and it requires something at least 3 or 4 times the diameter of what you propose to passively cool a house of any size. Think about the total opening in that cupola and then match it in earth tube cross-section.
It's a coating inside of the pipe that minimizes mold. Moisture is best controled with a consistent gravity feed to the entrance of the piping. My general location requires very little cooling, as a matter of fact we didn't include any cooling on the shaded cabin. Multiple pipes are utilized....# dependent upon desired reduction of temp and humidity.
What makes you think that you need (or the site can handle) three forms of solar generation? Here's where you could easily invest $100,000 just for those systems. Why would you need a 50,00-100,000 BTU boiler for a house that might need 10,000 BTU/hour on the worst winter night? And a gas backup? And why a wasteful indoor fireplace in addition to the chimney cost?
Overkill due to lack of current knowledge. I look forward to your continued educational input. Reason for Fireplace - I've only been married 23 years....still on our honeymoon...gotta have a fireplace on a snow bound evening!!!!!
Plenty of space for most any solar desire - south facing slope - 60 acres with option to an additional 205. All the wood I could burn 24/7 already on the ground. I bought a timbered area where the vegitation is rebounding and I still have some nice hardwoods in front of the building site...good for shade....too crooked to timber
Three electricity sources. Three heat sources in addition to the sun. Two hot water sources. All in a super-efficient house? This makes no sense whatsoever.
Paranoid backup.....I make a portion of my income in the computer network security business....I hate to be without creature comforts when "I" want them. I love getting back to nature and living off the land but some days I want to be pampered and I want to make absolutely certain I can be pampered when I want.....sound like a spoiled brat yet?
You're talking Chateau Mouton Rothschild champaign on a beer budget.
I'd be proud of that......
Pedro - a loco mule
here all structural wood must be graded and kiln dried or approved by an engineer
.................here all structural wood must be graded and kiln dried or approved by an engineer
Same in my area "unless" it's taken from your own property.....hmmm my wood must somehow be better than other wood???????....Maybe there's some emotional connection with the "heart" wood of the tree and building something with it where it once stood.
It does still have to pass the inspectors visual approval.
Pedro - Tooth pick luvin' Mule
I am Riversong will be back, but if he doesn't he posts over on JLC. He is a teacher at Yestermoorw school in Vermont. He has built several houses that use very little energy, I don't have the link but I am sure he would give you. The school he teachs at is cool look it up on google!
You simply haven't found the relevant passage in the code.. all codes allow sawmill wood. I found it and you simply need to look. It's there. I first found it in the UBC and since then have found the same passage in every single code I've looked at. (although sometimes you need to refer to anouther source to confirm it.. that's easily done too)
This is a case where you need to know more than the building inspector does and politely refer him to the relevant passage.. Then do yourself a favor and up size all the structual members so there is no issue of strength..
You can easily afford to do it with sawmill wood because the price is so much cheaper than lumberyard wood or even big box wood. Let me give you an example..
an ash 2x 10 x 18 feet will cost me $6.00 the same thing in 2x12 size will cost $7.20
If you decrease the spacing from 16 inches on center to 12 inches on center you increase costs by 25% so the floor joists might cost you $720 instead of $540 any building inspector will relax once he see' s that degree of strength.
You should also know the relative strength of ash versis SPF. Those numbers are easily looked up.
To give you a simple clear idea of the value of doing that most subfloors are tongue and groove 3/4 plywood or OSB. I haven't bought either in a very long period of time so I don't know current pricing.. a 3/4 inch sheet of plywood is 32 sq.ft. that's $6.40 in one inch thick ash and $12.80 in 2 inch thick ash. Try to find 3/4 inch t&g plywood or OSB at those prices!
One final pitch in your favor is you are dealing with actual size versis demenional lumber which because it is smaller than stated will be rated about 20% weaker than actaul. Another words a 2x10 that is made from lumberyard wood will be 1 1/2 X 9 1/2 while sawmill wood will be 2"x10" That's approximately 20% stronger
see there ya go agian with your limited knowledge.
The majority of small backwoods mills don't have kilns.
Where I lived in Jackson Co. NC , ANY thing over 2" thick had to be KILN DRIED or NO ELECTRICTY could be energized. Period. It may not be a strength issue at some locals, it is the AHJ deciding what THEY ALLOW.
You constantly post what YOU can do , assuming every place is the same, it is not always allowed. Period. You can show code book pages till you are blue in the face, but I know for a fact that the Poco won't/ can't energize unless they have an inspection that passed. And KD lumber is required in that county.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Edited 1/14/2009 5:08 pm ET by Sphere
There is no code requirement to kiln dry wood used in a house.. Read and understand what the darn code says!
Understand what the COUNTY deems LEGAL in thier Interpretations of THIER RULES.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
I went though this very issue with my city. Just so you understand I live in the richest city in Minnesota.. It's where President Bush comes to raise money. (he's been here twice) Very conservative and extremely rigid in the enforcement of building codes..
I would have been shot down in a nano second if I had not been prepared.. I quoted the place where what I proposed to do was allowed and even had a photo copy of it for their perusal. I suplimented it with all the relavent data and provided support referance material..
I did so very respectfully and more as a way to provide them with additional information than as any arguement..
It's there in the code you need to read and understand what the code says and provide plenty of documentation. It's all available.
And not one iota of that applies to Jackson County NC. Rules is rules, some have em, some don't.
The freaking Queen of England stays in Fayette Co. KY ( It might be Woodford up there) when she comes for the Derby, ya think I'd be able to just saunter on the farm and say hi? No? Why? RULES. It's NOT even the County rule, or state or Fed..it's the FARM.
see now I'm making as much sense as you now, when skirting the facts and substituting conjecture and personal one off experience.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
If the very rules allow you to then officals have no real arguement with those rules..
They may simply be ignorant of them..
Your density is astounding.
You approach the atmosphere of the large gas giant planets and Jovian in semblance..we that breathe the mixture here, and use sunlight to our advantage, have no use for your ambiance, so I'll let you and Robert parry and spar..I can't breathe with your vaccuous assumptions taking away my gravity.
Stay warm.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.