Hey guys. First time posting though I’ve been listening for about a year now. Got a situation I’m wondering if you can comment on.
I do small time renovation, have for about 15 years. Worked on crews for full builds, etc. Know a fair amount about construction. Decided to do a 2 story addition on my own house so I work up the plans.
My plans are nice, hand drawn (I like to do old fashioned drafting), figured out all the engineering loads and tolerances using the tables and then running it by a engineering friend to double check. All good and pretty and I get plenty of compliments on my 9 pages of plans when I run it through permits and use them to order from my suppliers. Everything goes through smooth. It should, I spent about 4 month doing the plans, making design decisions and stuff.
Here’s the problem. I’m about 75% done with the addition and a contractor buys 2 houses next door to each other up the street. He comes and introduces himself and asks to see what I did on my house. His houses are just about identical to mine. He makes nice and says he wants some ideas so he can tell his designer. After a few visits he asks if he can have a copy of my plans so he can show them to his designer for ideas. I reluctantly say ok. (I know, I know, but he is over every couple of days bugging me with questions and keeping me from working. I just want to get rid of him) I do make it clear that these are my plans and my name is all over them.
Bottom line is he builds the same addition (same size and style, even roof trusses) on both houses. I find this out from my supplier and an inspector who tells me he is, “using your plans.” No mention is made by the contractor of paying me and he apparently doesn’t see anything wrong with this. He showed up at my door a while ago and I told him I didn’t want to have anything more to do with him because he used my plans without compensating me. He expressed surprise and then claimed he didn’t know what I was talking about. I just closed the door.
This has been about 2 months and I’m still ticked about this but I don’t really know what to do about it. I’ve considered a registered letter requesting payment (a few thousand?) and then taking it from there if no payment is forthcoming. (oh yea, I should mention this guy used to be a lawyer before he became a “contractor”.)
What’s your take on this? What would you advise?
Replies
Welcome to BreakTime! I had a situation with some similarities, I'll tell you how it played out for me. I worked on a remodeling crew as a carpenter. The guys on the crew found out I used to be a graphic artist, and started bugging me to do a t-shirt design for the crew. They got the boss to promise to get shirts printed if I did a design.
They kept bugging me, and I finally did a few sketches. Brought them to work, and the guys gave me their feedback. Then I kinda started getting into it, and went home and did a cartoon drawing of a carpenter looking like a cowboy, holding his hammer like a gun, and a "sawhorse" rearing up on its hind legs. It was pretty funny, and everyone liked it. So I gave it to the boss, and he got the shirts printed, and we all got a laugh out of them.
Then next thing I know, he's got my t-shirt design on his business cards, stationery, vehicle signs, etc.
So I confronted him, and said it was wrong to use my design for anything other than the t-shirts. He acted surprised, and said he thought I'd be flattered. I told him he should pay me, and he said How much?
I felt uncomfortable giving him a price, because I knew he would be shocked to find out that a customized graphic like that was worth 800 - 1000, and I didn't think he'd believe it if he heard it from me. So I told him Go to a graphic designer (and gave him the name of a reputable one), ask them what the design is worth, and I'll accept whatever they say.
I guess that was my mistake. He went to a buddy of his who did t-shirt printing, or something like that, but who had no clue of actual graphic design. The buddy said "I have no idea how to draw something like that, but if I could, I'd charge a couple hundred." My boss thought he was being generous, and wrote me a check for $300.
I choked, but I did tell him I would accept whatever he was told it was worth, so I bit the bullet, thanked him, and put it behind me. Sure it still bugs me a little, but I continued to work for him, and had a lot of respect for the man, in spite of that. I figure he made a gesture to make it right, and I was foolish to give him my design without clarifying the limitations on its use. Live and learn.
-------edited to add---------
About your situation: the guy is a jerk, and knew full well what he was doing. I'm not sure how copyright laws pertain to plans, but with graphic art 80% was the cutoff point. Meaning if they changed 20% of the design, they could legally rip it off and get away with it. Being as how you say he used to be a lawyer, I don't think you'd get very far pursuing your beef in a legal venue. But I'm sure there are other posters here who can give you better insights than I can.
BTW, here's what a lot of the builders in my town do, which I think is disgusting. They go to the big home shows in Vegas, and come home with literature showing floor plans and renderings. Then they take them to a draftsman, and have it copied basically verbatim, onto a blueprint format. Then to an engineer, and Bingo! - New house plans without ever paying an architect or a design professional.
Edited 4/18/2005 2:43 am ET by Huck
What would I advise?
Come over here...............<SMACK upside yer head>
Dont ever do that again. :-)
Write the guy the legal letter, refer to copyright etc and see what happens. Truth is though, if he was a lawyer he will know all the angles and likely you wont get anything. I would still try. Then issue a tresspass order on the dirtbag so ya can have him arrested next time he drags his theiving carcass onto your place.
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
THIS DOCUMENT OR DRAWING INCLUDING ANY AND ALL ATTACHMENTS, IS THE SOLE PROPERTY OF ERIC PAULSON,
ERIC PAULSON BUILDER CONTRACTOR, AND IS PROTECTED BY LAW.
ANY UNAUTHORIZED USE, DISTRIBUTION OR REPRODUCTION OF THESE DOCUMENTS IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED.
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
THIS DOCUMENT IS THE SOLE PROPERTY OF ERIC PAULSON AND IS PROTECTED BY LAW OF THIS AND OTHER NATIONS.<!---->
<!----><!---->
ANY UNAUTHORIZED USE, OF THESE DOCUMENTS IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED.<!---->Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You GAVE him the plans. You put them in his hands knowing he was about to undertake a project. If you wanted compensation for them that was the time to tell him. Not after you thought about it a while.
Not only that but he could have gone to the town hall as a concerned neighbor and reviewed your plans for nothing
Live and learn. Next time ask for $$
It stinks. It sucks. The contractor's a jerk. But maverick is right that you did the most damage to yourself. I've been asked for my house plans a bunch of times, and always just said, "No." Whatever the legal side, on the personal side, you'd be best served by learning good ways of dealing with difficult people. If people are interrupting your work and absconding with your designs, it's because ultimately, you're letting them, and even facilitating it. There are ways to turn people down or away without having to become rude or aggressive yourself. A simple, "No thank you, I'm really busy at the moment," can work wonders. Teach people how you want to be treated. Good luck. And remember I did say the other guy's a jerk.
A. Put a lein on BOTH properties. Chances are these are investment properties and until the lein is resolved he can't sell, refinance etc.
B. If you only want a couple of $K+ (per property), take him to small claims court - by yourself. The judge may look unfavorably against him if the judge knows that he is a lawyer and is "manipulating" the law.
C. Be sure to consult a lawyer to advise you on to proceed and strategy.
I don't know how the laws work in your area, or mine for that matter, but even though your design did not have a copyright seal, it might be argued that it wasn't needed since it was never intended for public use and therefore didn't require one. Regardless, wouldn't it fall under intellectual property? How do you copyright that? The guy misled you or at best, got lazy and plagerized. You can call the Bldg Insp. and the various suppliers in your town as witnesses.
BTW - You have a limited amount of time for filing a lein. 2 Months have already past. Do it NOW!
F
Edited 4/18/2005 8:13 am ET by Frankie
Edited 4/18/2005 12:33 pm ET by Frankie
I had a copy of some plans that a friend build. professional plans. I was going to build the house with no changes. Summitted the plans to permit office, got approved, but they called the designer. would not issue the permit till I paid for plans. It wasnt much $300.
I'm pretty sure copyright laws apply whether a work is registered or not. Check out http://www.copyright.gov/register/
Yes, every "work of art" is automatically covered by copyright laws without registerying it. However, unless it is registered the amount of damages that you can get are very limited. IIRC you can't even get legal fees, just actual cash loses which are very hard to prove in a case like this.However, he GAVE THEM TO HIM. Case closed.BTW, not only do copyright cover the plans, but also derivations. That includes the house. Now if someone looked at the resulant house and "copied" it that would also be a voilation.However, in 99.99999% of the cases it could not be proven that it was a copy and not a independingly produced. It would have to have some very specfic details that where not commonly used.
but even though your design did not have a copyright seal, it might be argued that it wasn't needed since it was never intended for public use and therefore didn't require one. Regardless, wouldn't it fall under intellectual property?
That's true, plans drawn for personal use (by having the home address on them) argue for an "exclusive" use, with an implicit copyright.
How do you copyright that?
Use one of the recognised symbols for copyright, such as (c) or © somewhere on the document. That's been recognised as enough for written software. Send the docs off to the Copyright office (following the FAQ here will help: http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-register.html#register)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
i will preface by saying i am a young architect, so i don't have experience personally with such a situation, but perhaps this will help:
in the commercial world, it is akin to theft to steal a design, and you can sue people for stealing your design (not just the drawings themselves). we, as architects, own the design, and even if a client paid for the drawings for one location, they can't take the exact same drawings, re-work them, and build the same design somewhere else without our approval, which would without a doubt include compensation. if they proceeded with the building without our approval, we would sue and win compensation. period.
in the commercial world, contractors require a 'signed and sealed' set of drawings to get permits. residentially, however, there are generally no regulations for 'signed and sealed' drawings. but that doesn't affect the fact that the design is still your property. i would guess that because the neighbor misrepresented himself ('i just want to look at them for reference') you have a clear case of larceny and copyright infringement. perhaps you made a mistake trusting him, but that doesn't mean he's off the hook. i would take him to court and sue his ####.
furthermore, with regard to the compensation: i draw site plans for folks around town for $250 usually used for variance applications and re-zonings. color drawings are more like $400. i usually charge $25 per hour, WHICH IS VERY LOW. i do it that way because it's easy and i could probably charge more.
if i were drawing plans for someone, for an addition, for example, i would budget $1000 easily, maybe $2000 depending on how detailed they were supposed to be. working for picky clients is a pain : ). for permit drawings only (stock kind of wall sections and plans just detailed enough to show the basics for permit pulling) i estimate between $500 and $1000, but that's usually no real design work, just the drawing production.
it sounds like your drawings were detailed enough to warrant probably $2000 a set. i would go after the neighbor for $2000 per use of your design, plus incedentals as you can tack them on. you could also estimate your time spent on the design / drawings and calculate the total worth by multiplying your hours by a good hourly rate $25 or $50. $50 i think would be acceptable based on you being an amature. professional architectural / engineering fees are usually $100 per hour, but that alwasy includes overhead and profit, something an amature probably can't really sell to a judge.
hope this helps. good luck sticking it to him.
j
because most of my stuff is commerical... I still design/draw/measure and hand them to my guy who "redraws" them and stamps em so i call get my permits... I pay him by the hour ... in no way has he or did he design anything nor has he ever come up with an idea I've used... I hate to think he'd think he designed anything... much less ever get more $$ from them if i ever used the plans again... but maybe i'm just that stupid...
pony
"...I hate to think he'd think he designed anything... much less ever get more $$ from them if i ever used the plans again...but maybe i'm just that stupid..."
i would guess that agreement is between you and your draftsman / architect / engineer. you can negotiate whatever agreement you want when it comes down to it, but standard practices are for the "idea" to remain the "property" of the designer / architect (ie the professional who stamped the drawings, in your case).
when people use the same drawings over and over again it is referred to as "plan stamping" and it is quite illegal. in the commercial world (because residential is completely different) it is illegal to take a set of stamped drawings and reproduce a building on an alternate site. the drawings must reflect the conditions of the given site.
i can't take a greenhouse from canada and build it here in indianapolis without having someone local stamp the drawings, even if they were stamped by a licenced p.e. from ontario. and if anyone local were to agree to take the same drawings, copy them while hiding the original stamp and re-stamp them with their certification, not only would they be taking on a great deal of liability, but they would be crossing the line of "plan stamping."
the greenhouse thing happened a few years ago to us, and our client had to incur about $3000 in professional fees just to have a local engineer review the canadian engineer's drawings, put them on his title block and stamp them as his own. pretty sweet and easy 3k if you ask me. as far as the design / copyright issues that it brings about with those structural drawings, the greenhouse people had already agreed to pre-engineer the structure for the client, so the client was completely safe to use these drawings for the given site (plus the greenhouse people were design / build).
i believe there would be a problem, however, with both the state plan folks as well as the greenhouse mfr., if the client were to take those drawings and try to build the same greenhouse on another site in town.
j
"idea" to remain the "property" of the designer / architect
I know of a case where the owner decided the project architect's engineer was too expensive and took the incomplete architecturals to a different--but in town--engineer to finish & stamp. Said engineer did not know that a previous engineer had been engaged, or that the archy followed professional practice law and canceled the contract.
Owner built the building anyway. Still don't know how they sorted out having either 1.5 engineers or .75 engineers-of-record. Still pretty sure that the COO is still pending as it is unissuable with the information available (building does not match the drawn plans, even the inaccurate bits). This has not stopped the owner from leasing space in the building.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I wouldn't pursue the matter.
You gave him the plans. He acted in an underhanded manner but I'm sure you probably had a hint that he would do that.
I can't imagine taking this guy to court would yield you a greater return than your efforts.
You know what they say, no good deed...
Jon Blakemore
Fixit (literally),
This guy stroked your ego telling you how great your plans were and weaseled away without ever having to deal with business, but you closed the door on him when he came back!
Time to weasel up- go back to him and face to face tell him that you don't appreciate what he did but your willing to talk again. Explain to him that you busted your balls on these plans for your own house, where of course you weren't paid for it. Then tell him that you thought long and hard about it and you want to be fair, the plans are worth say $1,000.00 the first go around, depreciated to $600. the second and $150 the third which is $750 for his uses- and let the negotiations begin. Ask him a question like "Joe you will admit my plans had a value to your project, won't you?"- then shut up and don't say a word, let him answer- but don't close the door this time. Don't relent, and realize you have to work this out mano y mano - I don't think you have a legal leg to stand on, work this out the old fashioned way.
If worse comes to worse, you can't draw blood from a stone, try to save the relationship because the guy obviously liked your plans. Let him know you don't appreciate it but you would write plans for him again, but you'll discuss the price and deposit up front. Then charge him enough that you'll compensate for the loss.
Bottom line is imitation is the sincerest form of flattery- you can let people know where his creativity came from, too. Plus- you had to write the plans for yourself anyway.
Edited 4/18/2005 10:40 pm ET by byrnsie
Agree- face him, negotiate if he will.
Step 2 if step 1 fails... take him to small claims. Don't be afraid of a lawyer-or used to be lawyer... means nothing. In small claims he may set out a better case-however the judge will be much more critical of everything he says. The flip side is- the mere thought of him having to go to small claims (court) for free- will irk him to death. Even if you don't win anything- you make your point.
He did wrong- you did wrong- you learned-but he's the one who stole the result of your toil.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
I what to thank everyone's take on this. Its helpful to know that, while I deserved the smack on the head (thanks AJinNZ,) I actually had a beef and wasn't making a big deal out of nothing. That said, and the fact that I'm still p$ssed about it, I think its right to do something about it for my own self respect and a little justice.
I posted here because I knew I'd get the benefit of some clear thinking and honorable behavior. You guys are real pros.Thanks again.