They’re something new around here, used where standard septic systems have failed or can’t be approved. I found a U Mass study that’s certainly interesting, but primarily concerned itself with nitrogen.
I’ve been asked to determine the overall prospects for the homeowner. Apparently the peat moss must be renewed periodically. I gather the system is more expensive to install that either the stone leach field or the newer, plastic paneled ones.
Found a couple of commercial web sites, but would like to hear actual experience. A search here turned up nothing.
Anybody know much about them?
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Replies
Ok, you caught my attention.
What are the commercial site for this system?
I'm familar with artificial wet lands, but not this peat moss system. Sounds like it may be some variant.
BTY we have had very poor experiences with the plastic dome shaped leaching chambers.
What kind of soil?
Have you looked at the cost of excavating, and hauling in good top soil for the lateral field?
Dave
Hi Dave,
This time I'm looking into an existing installation for a new house by a builder who normally shortcuts everything possible. Haven't seen the site but apparently it's one where normal septic wouldn't have been approved, probably too much slate. I only know of one instance where bringing in dirt was approved, but I don't deal with the issue very often. The Va health dept. is normally less than forthcoming with information unless you can catch the individual inspector out on an inspection.
http://www.ecoflopa.com/ is a Pa company who says the product is approved statewide. I don't know that this is the brand system used here.
www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~ewinkler/ Publications/research%20pubs/wastwater/ASAEdenit.pdf is the 20 yr old study by U Mass-Amherst.
BTY we have had very poor experiences with the plastic dome shaped leaching chambers.
Whoops. That sounds like the same thing. What was in those plastic domes? These stick up in the backyard like nothing anybody would ever want.
Tonight I should be able to connect with my preferred septic guy who may know about these. But he won't know much beyond the initial installation, if that. One reason I'm interested, beyond my client's (a contractor/inspector) questions, is that it would open up a lot of otherwise unbuildable sites, normally my specialty. We have a <25% slope requirement in addition to perc approval (which is never done wet). For instance, I have a neighbor with an outhouse in lieu of septic possibility. For him, the health dept. overlooks the ban on surface released gray water, no other option. He's on a rock in a grandfathered house.
Thanks for your interest.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
The dome things we use were buried, but have still been a problems. Some of them may have been from instalation, some from equipment running over them, and some from what little top soil was available washing away.
Piffen had the name for these things. I am having a senior moment with it:(
The domes were suppose to provide the same area as a lateral leaching field in a smaller space, downstream of the artificial wetland. Waste water is about 90-98% treated when it leaves the second bed of the wetland in theory. The chambers, once the damage and mis-installed were repaired, still gave us fits. We brought in top soil and covered them agian, but we still get seepage durring high use period and wet weather.
I am thinking of adding more top soil on the down hill side and banking it in with clay to create a larger perkable area.
The Health Dept. here is no longer designing or recommending those darn things in this area. Wetlands are acceptable, but they now require a lateral field downstrean. The wetland reduces the lineal feet of lateral field and depth a significant amount over the standard septic/lateral system.
Maybe piffen or one of the others will jump in here with more on those chambers.
I'll look at those sites you posted.
Dave
Bump.
I'm curious also as to what these things are called and what the skinny is on performance/problems.
A friend down the road about a 1/4 mile is having a new drainfield installed and the outfit doing it is suggesting these plastic dome thingies as an alternative to a conventional trench with rock-fill. He asked me about it two weeks ago and I didn't know.
Pointed him to this thread today and he e-mailed back tonight that the guys dropped 300' of them in his yard today while he was gone.
Digging commences in the morning.
It's now or never.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 8/11/2004 9:46 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
The black dome systems went by the name of the "Infiltrator System". I had this system in my last house, 10 years latter it still works fine. The health dept around here used to push the system big time, years ago. Not any more, they now have a thing about drip systems (have a drip system in my present 3 yr. old house).
The Infiltrator was $60 a 3ft section back in 92, I remember because I had 3 90ft runs. That was just the domes,add pipe, pumps & tanks & you could spend $8K real fast!
Try http://www.infiltratorsystems.com for more info on the system.
Thanks for the response.
I can't say for sure what these things are costing, but I do know they priced the job out the same either way. $9 a lineal. $2700 for 300 ft of finished drainfield.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
The black dome systems went by the name of the "Infiltrator System".
Oooh, those are domes. That system I know, it's the one my septic guy almost always uses now. He's installing them roughly 2/3 the cost of stone septic. They also reduce the length of drainfield lines. My client's house got that at $2700, compared with normal $3500. As I understand it, simply a much cheaper replacement for traditional lines. Everything else is the same.
Caught up with him last night. He didn't know any more than I did/do about the peat moss systems. Our health dept is pushing him to install drip systems, which include a $6k 3 chamber tank but then have the remainder installed with a Ditchwitch plow. He doesn't know much about maintenance costs. System's much more expensive than Infiltrator.
Have now a phone number for the engineering co. who probably has been engineering these systems. Unlikely they'll know much about the HO side, but I'll ask. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
contact Bill Mitch at OHio State University, School of Natural resources. He is one of the worlds leading authorities on wetlands and will have answers for you. The systems do work but have to be constructed correctly.
Tom,
As a licensed PE and septic designer, I have been designing and specifying a LOT of peat moss based systems in the past year. Here in Vermont, the State has loosened up their regulations to allow for alternative and experimental systems. As a result, I've been leaning heavily towards systems that have little or no moving parts and have a minimal annual expense (not to mention a reasonable upfront expense). Although I'm not a spokesman for anyone, or paid to advertise, my favorite system is made by Premier Tech, a company based in Quebec.
http://www.premiertech.com/ecoflo/biofilter/index.htm
(Hope the link works).
Basically, it consists of a plastic/fiberglass tank, filled with peat moss, and the only moving part is a plastic tip tray that holds one gallon of effluent and disperses the effluent through the peat moss when it fills up. The peat moss is a special coarse mix mined in Canada, and it is renewed every eight years. The local sales and installation company for this product sells and installs everything but the leach field, and the cost is around $8k to $10k depending on the application. These pretreatment systems have a track record as good as or better than any fabric/plastic/miscellaneous treatment system on the market that is filled with all kinds of little pumps and pipes and recirc devices, etc.
I place enough faith in the operation of this system that I am putting in one for my own new house. By law, I don't need one, but I'm buying peace of mind that comes from knowing that for less than $200 a year, I am guaranteeing myself a septic system that will never fail. The side effect of using one of these (or any approved) pretreatment systems is that I can cut the size of my septic leach field in half. That helps if you're short on space.
EDIT: Maintenance is done annually by the company, including effluent sampling and peat moss testing, as well as visual inspection of all components. The first eight years is included in the initial cost. After that, it's around $150 a year in eight-year intervals.
Edited 8/12/2004 5:33 pm ET by Jon
Edited 8/12/2004 5:35 pm ET by Jon
Jon,
Thank you. That was exactly what I was looking for. Not likely this system is from Premier Tech though, being Virginia.
Have yet to hear from the engineering co. Seems to be vacation time and a small office.
The economics, however, don't have a payback- ever- do they? Assuming that a more traditional septic system would work, as I guess is your situation, and undoubtedly not in my query.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom,
You asked about payback.
I would probably need a mound system if I didn't have the peat moss tank. The cost for a mound field (just the field) ranges from $5-12k, depending on the size, the installer, and the source of the sand for the mound.
If my system costs me $1000 every eight years, that's 40 to 100 years of peace of mind, knowing I don't have to install a replacement leach field if the first one fails. To me, that's payback enough. Consider this - a connection to a municipal sewer costs $x a year. There's never any payback on that. A traditional septic system still needs to be pumped out and cleaned every two to five years, depending on use, at $250-$350 per visit. Still no payback. By putting in a septic system and assuming that's the last time you'll ever have to look at it, deal with it, dig it up, or put money into it; that is a certainty that you will have to replace it or perform major repairs within 30 years. By putting in the peat moss system, I will still have to pump out my septic tank, clean the outlet filter, check the distribution box, and let the peat moss company do their thing annually. Regardless of what type of system you have, getting rid of your waste is going to cost you money, perpetually. I'm putting in the peat moss tank for insurance against failure of my leach field, which is the most expensive part of the system.
Jon
I would probably need a mound system if I didn't have the peat moss tank. The cost for a mound field (just the field) ranges from $5-12k, depending on the size, the installer, and the source of the sand for the mound.
Jon, I misunderstood you. Comparison I was making was the difference between peat moss and a conventional system, which here runs $3500, substantially less for Infiltrator. Payback I questioned was for the difference.
You're pumping every 2-5 yrs? Our health dept recommends 3-5, but I know of nobody who does that after the initial pumping, usually around yr 5, turns up next to no sludge. This is an area of mystery to me.
For instance, the septic for the rental we used while building was a total unknown. Owners had rented it out for 30 yrs. Nobody knew where the tank was. Clearly no pumping in all that time. 10 yrs later, now, still no pumping. Far as the owners know, it wasn't pumped before they bought the property. Leach field was/is working just fine. Gotta be a problem eventually.
Do some people have substantial sludge in 2 yrs? We're on 10 yrs and my to-do list does include an inspection, but I don't expect to find much sludge. We also put in an over-sized system, figuring that once was better than twice. The extra cost was less than $2k. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thanks for the link.
I've requested literature. Our ldistrict health department probably already knows of this system, but I'll send it on to them anyway. Much of the county I live in has dense clay soil, with nearly zero perk. They are always looking for acceptable alternatives to the standard septic tank/lateral field system.
I just hualed in 28 truck loads of top soil for my own lateral field. It has to sit for 6 to 12 months before I can install the system, or I install it and have the tank pumped every month untill the set time is over. Bummer at $150 a month.
I know it depends on usage, but what would be an average time between pump outs for a standard system?
Dave
Standard residence, 3-5 persons, I recommend 3 year intervals. State law here says that new installations must have access to grade for inspections and pumping on all septic tanks and distriibution boxes. Too many people have no clue where their septic tanks are, and often someone goes and buils a deck overthem, or puts a garage on the leach field, or something equally as unpleasant to deal with.