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Peeling exterior paint

| Posted in Construction Techniques on July 23, 2003 06:55am

Was asked to look at a house and give an estimate (really! not a firm quote) to make minor repairs and repaint the exterior.  House is 50+/- yrs old, wood frame, half wood lap siding, half asbestos shingles (the back side of the house).  Repairs include a little rotten fascia and bottoms of corner trim boards.  HO commented that the house gets repainted abot every 3-4 years because the paint keeps peeling off…has for a long time (original owner).  It is obvious (to me) that moisture is in the siding and is pushing the paint off.  As part of the repairs they wil have the roof torn off and re-done.

Walked the roof looking for cause of the moisture.  A few minor problems, but the 3-tab shingles are in very good condition, not curled or cracked.  Most of the peeling is on the north side of the house, not near a bathroom.  Joints all look cauled pretty well.  We did find that the metal drip edge is on top of the tar paper along all sides of the roof.  Roof sheathing looks to be 1×6.  Don’t know, but assume there is no vapor barrier.  Central heat & air.  No visible moisture problems inside, no basement but there is a low crawlspace with vents.  No sprinkler system.

Help.  Need some clues.  It would be easy to do what has been asked, but I would prefer to solve the problem.

 

Do it right, or do it twice.

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Replies

  1. EricS | Jul 23, 2003 03:17pm | #1

    A picture would be worth a few hundred words here but my uneducated guess is that the wood siding has said "I give up" due to the many layers of paint that are resting on the surface.

    I see a fibercement job in your future.

    Eric S. 

    1. FastEddie1 | Jul 23, 2003 03:34pm | #2

      Actually there's not many layers in some places, since it blisters so well.  The asbestos siding areas are not blistered.

      Do it right, or do it twice.

      1. User avater
        Mongo | Jul 23, 2003 04:59pm | #5

        What is the basement like?

        At 50-ish I'd expect a poured basement with a floor slab.

        Any moisture issues in the basement? Not just liquid, but vapor. Try the old 'taped piece of poly on the floor' trick, and try it over a period of time. Dry weather, rainy wether, etc. A moist basement can have a detrimental effect on painted wood sding.

  2. User avater
    goldhiller | Jul 23, 2003 04:46pm | #3

    "It is obvious (to me) that moisture is in the siding and is pushing the paint off."

    Is this because there is perceivable high moisture in the wood or because the peeling paint has the "signature" of moisture problems?

    There are about 6 largish very grand two-stories (3,500 sq ft.) right close to me here, all built around 1910 by the same builder. These houses are "mirrors" of one another style-wise. All but one of these homes has been resided/sided-over because of persistent paint peeling problems thru the years. The one which hasn't been sided over basically looks like he!l and has for thirty years, but the owner refuses to invest in more paint or siding Not a flake of paint remains and the wood is badly weathered.

    Many painters and products had "their chance" to resolve the problems over the years and all of them failed. A few of these homes were sanded back to fresh wood, but they continued to throw off paint with monotonous regularity even though there were no interior moisture vapor problems.

    What all these houses have in common is basswood clapboard siding.

    Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.



    Edited 7/23/2003 9:47:27 AM ET by GOLDHILLER

    1. User avater
      goldhiller | Jul 23, 2003 04:53pm | #4

      Correction.........

      What all these houses HAD in common was basswood clapboard siding.

      Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

  3. User avater
    goldhiller | Jul 23, 2003 05:24pm | #6

    Oddly enough, a search on basswood resulted in sites promoting the wood as being a very high quality, non-peeling, preferred paintable material.

    Hmmmmmmmm.

    Didn't pan out that way for the owners of these houses here.

    Another peeling paint mystery unresolved?

    Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
    1. NormKerr | Jul 23, 2003 07:23pm | #7

      my vote is for interior moisture escaping thru the walls, even though you said "no moisture issues inside". Is it not possible that enough vapor is passing thru the walls without causing any noticeable issues inside?

      installing a vapor barrier would help, if that is the cause.

      Since installing a house wrap is not possible, without removing the siding, there are two other options to reduce vapor travel thru the walls:

      1) vapor retarding paint on the inside walls (big job, have to re-paint the whole interior, and some will still escape between floors, between walls, and so on).

      2) install an air-retarding type of insulation. These homes were most likely built with none (1910 houses) or fiberglass (1950s house), which allows free air movement. If the house could be packed with cellulouse, or the stud bays filled with an open-celled foam like Icynene, the air would move thru the walls much more slowly and may reduce the paint peeling effect.

      Note that any change in the breathing of the house will require new consideration of the interior moisture content. A leaky house could have LOTS of water vapor passing thru it and give little indication of it (other than peeling paint outside). Trapping that inside can cause new issues. Making sure the crawlspace is QUITE dry, and/or basement to prevent introducing excess moisture, as well as venting cooking and bathing vapor outside will be needed once the house is tightened up.

      I think that a heavilly insulated attic, but poorly insulated walls, could create this effect (the air + moisture is more directed into the walls since it can't escape as well out the "top"). The fact that you said the north wall peels worse is a clue - no sun to heat the siding to keep the vapor above the dew point until after it escapes the wall.

      Overall, the result ought to produce a nicer place to live, beyond improving paint life.

      Please tell us what you can about the insulation and do the "moisture" test on the crawl-space (plastic sheet check) and let us know what you find.

      Norm

      1. FastEddie1 | Jul 24, 2003 02:01am | #8

        I perceive it to be a moisture problem because of the signature of blistered paint.  There is no basement...only a dirt crawlspace about 12-18" high.  Have not done a plastic-on-the-floor moisture test.  I think the peeling north wall has less to do with orientation, and more because that's the front of the house with the wood siding, whereas the back has the asbestos shingles.  I also suspect that the chance of adding a vapor barrier or additional insulation is very slim.  HO is a lady in her late 70's-early 80's and she and her out-of-town son are looking to take care of obvious problems (old shingles, rotted fascia) to extned the life of the house so it is relativly problem-free until granny expires.  I suspect that they would be willing to let the paint peel and just re-do that part every couple of years.  We are in south Texas where it usually goes 30 days between rain, so the ground and house has a chance to really dry between the brief heavy rains.  She does not have a sprinkler systtem, so mis-directed heads are not the problem.

        Do it right, or do it twice.

        1. User avater
          Dinosaur | Jul 24, 2003 04:17am | #9

          South Texas? Is it possible the paint's peeling because it was applied to substrate that was too hot, like in direct sun or whatever...?

          Dinosaur

          'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

    2. Piffin | Jul 24, 2003 05:14am | #10

      There is a common similar paint problem hereabouts in houses of that vintage.

      The sills support both the floor framing and the studding for balloon framed walls. Moisture in the basement or crawl space can migrate quite easily up into the stud cavities but stop at the top plate. It escapes out through the wall, pushing paint off with it, regardless of whether it is cypress, pine, or cedar.

      Don't see basswod exterior here but what I know of it, there is no reason to suspect the wood when this is asymptom of moisturized wood..

      Excellence is its own reward!

      1. User avater
        goldhiller | Jul 24, 2003 06:08am | #11

        Am well aware of all that and yet it remains (in my mind anyway) that the basswood siding is suspect.

        This 1875 Vic I sit in is built the same way, except it has the original old-growth pine clapboards. Stone foundation (solid as a rock <G>), 8x8 sill, balloon-framed. Zero moisture problems or peeling paint. Never was, as evidenced by all the layers of paint I removed some years ago to get back to wood. Ugh. No signs of peeling or throwing paint anywhere. Paint doesn't peel on this house, it wears away.

        Two of these basswood-sided houses I refer to, belong to friends and have for many years. One is less than a quarter mile from here. I've done a lot of work in them at all times of year and know for a fact that no moisture problems exist. Exhaust fans are properly sized, installed and exhausted for the bathrooms and kitchen areas. Clothes dryers are also vented to the outside.

        No signs of rising damp at all. Sills as solid as day one.

        For perhaps ten years running since I became familiar with them, both these houses were heated by wood and wood alone. Bone dry inside during the winters. No condensation on the windows either…..even at 25 or 30 below. ( I wouldn't care to live that dry around here and don't. We have a humidifier installed on the furnace.) I'm sure they were heated with wood and/or coal during their early years as well.

        They've all thrown paint both before and after walls and ceilings were insulated. (celluose)

        Well-prepped paint jobs would start throwing paint within two years……seemingly no matter what (oil or latex)…….on all four exterior walls. And no variance from 1st to 2nd floor.

        Needless to say, these houses had a "reputation" with the painters in this area. Now they've all been resided except that one………..and it's beyond rescue at this point. Glad they resided because these houses are grand inside beyond replacement with today's materials.

        Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

      2. FastEddie1 | Jul 24, 2003 03:06pm | #12

        Pif that makes sense.  Problem is that the crawlspace is so shallow that access is very difficult (and impossible for me...if I can't stand up, it's not tall enough!).  Could anything be done from the outside by removing the last one or two rows of siding?

        Do it right, or do it twice.

        1. TommH | Jul 24, 2003 05:36pm | #13

          One of the Schreodur house paints is supposedly formulated for this very type of moisture problem (assuming it is moisture). Supposedly allows moisture to pass thru without pushing the paint off the wood. Requires that most of the old paint be removed. Does not require a primer coat. Very expensive, but cheaper than repainting every 4 years.

          1. FastEddie1 | Jul 29, 2003 02:34am | #14

            Do you have any more info on the Schroeder paint?  I did a google and found a few comments mentioning the paint, but no clues as to the mfgr or vendor.Do it right, or do it twice.

          2. FastEddie1 | Jul 30, 2003 04:22am | #15

            Did a little on-line resaeach, didn't find much, except that more than one site mentioned using latex paint rather than oil or alkyd (maybe it said acrylic? have to look again) because the latex/acrylic is more vapor permeable than the others.  Didn't say that it would solve moisture build-up, just said that it was "more" permeable.

            One site mentioned driving small metal or wood wedges under the siding at the stud locations to provide a weep hole at each course, and a little ventilation.  Kinda makes sense.  Think I might use popsicle sticks.  Any comments?

            Do it right, or do it twice.

          3. edwardh1 | Jul 30, 2003 03:24pm | #16

            Seems like fiber cement siding would be a solution.

            Shadow line is different though.

          4. FastEddie1 | Jul 30, 2003 04:06pm | #17

            Changing the siding to FC is not an option...cost.Do it right, or do it twice.

          5. User avater
            bobl | Jul 30, 2003 04:41pm | #19

            schuerder paints

            http://www.finepaints.com/

            don't let the Martha stuert reference fool you, not the same as walmart? martha steurt.

            about $75/2.5L for standard colors, $85/2.5L for special colors

            2.5L=euro galbobl          Volo Non Voleo

          6. User avater
            bobl | Jul 30, 2003 04:54pm | #20

            forgot

            the site mentions a Mikita/ 3M paint removing system.

            the mikita tool is eaisly available for about $90 (vice thier 120) and the 3M scrubber is very aggressive.  did a post here asking about it, that was basicly response.  I haven't used it.bobl          Volo Non Voleo

          7. toobad | Jul 30, 2003 04:21pm | #18

            Companies make shims for clapboards for just that purpose.Google"clapboard shims".Wedge Vent is one brand that reduces moisture vapor.

          8. TommH | Jul 30, 2003 06:13pm | #21

            It's the PHP paint (problem house paint). Check the website for a local retailer, usually a high end lumber yard (Ring's End here in Ct.)

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