Or vinyl clad vs aluminum. Which brand and/or which style is better, and why? Talking about double hung windows about 3′ x 6′ and swinging patio door units. Location is south Texas so cold weather is not an issue, but warm weather is de facto. Replacement units, if that makes a diff in your answer. Customer can afford either one.
Do it right, or do it twice.
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Replies
"Customer can afford either one."
It's not like as though you are looking at the most expensive windows available so I don't quite get that comment.
For new work, I like Andersen. Pella has never left me feeling quite satisfied. The only time I use them is if an archy is forcing me to. In favor of Pella, they have some cutte tuoys as options that the customers might like - such as the shades that could be good in your hot sunny climate.
For a good one that goes retrofit, I like Marvin.
If you are looking for Alum clad, I like Norco too. They do some neat things.
Excellence is its own reward!
Okay Piffin have you heard of MW windows up in your neck of the woods? I am told these are a good mid grade window. Lars leans towards these to put in our home. We are replacing the old ones and putting in news ones to the back half of the house that we gutted out four years ago. I am crossing my fingers and hoping for all new windows by this time next year. BTW I like Anderson windows over Pella. Tamara
Sorry, you found a blank spot in my mind on that window name..
Excellence is its own reward!
The comment on the affordability was included in case someone qualified their response by saying "for the money" or "brand X is over-priced". In this case, cost is not an issue.
Looking at 1/1 windows and full-view doors, so inner-blinds are not an issue. In fact, customer says she will not be putting blinds or shutters on the inside, 'cause she doesn't want to block the view.
Ok, a little more info: we/I had planned on the Anderson 400 series vinyl clad replacement windows (stained wood on the inside). Sister-in-law gets involved, says the vinyl cladding will not last as long as the aluminum cladding, and names Pella as a "preferred substitute". Customer called me to ask my opinion, and asked which style was better. I have heard that Anderson is a good choice, and I'm looking for a litttle more info.
Do it right, or do it twice.
El, check out Precision Fit replacement by pella. Wood in/alum clad out.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Ok, but do you think one is better than the other?
Do it right, or do it twice.
Well El, I get great backup if necessary from the local distributor of Pella. The product is good, the factory assembly.............could be better but, any problems are quickly taken care of. The Andersen guarantee if still as before, is good. The local distributor is hidden in this area. I have had good luck with both. Aftermarket is important as is the local contact. A product you have to pull teeth to get service on might as well be bogus. How's your local scene with suppliers?
I think the removable grills are better on the pella, but my last experience with Andersen DH's was 2 years ago. Things change.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 7/22/2003 10:33:07 PM ET by calvin
I have had good luck with the Pella windows. The aluminum aides in holding them square for an easier install (I still check them though). I have seen the vinyl cladding actually bake off (or expand and contract until they come loose) of Andersen sashes.
I ordered replacement glass for an MW window (from what I've heard, MW is more of a southern company) for a client and waited 7 weeks for the glass and stops.
Here's what I tell a client who has that sort of advice from somebody, ( I won't tell you what I'd like to say to some of them)
"My experience with Pella has been less than impressive. I have suffered from midplaced orders, doublehungs that will not close snugly, the worst millwork I have seen in any windows, and products that are overpriced for what you get. Knowing this ahead of time, if you still want Pella windows and are willing to take the cost risk for labour on replacements or if they delay the job for another misplaced order, then I am more than happy to install whatever window you like."
Whatin'ell does the sister know about windows anyway - besides Bill Gates' product, I mean? Is she a proifessional in this industry?
In my book, AL clad is better than vinyl for most circumstances, all other things being equal. The Anderson company is far better than the Pella company, IMO when it comes to service and backup.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 7/22/2003 10:43:05 PM ET by piffin
Well that's certainly clear as mud, Pif. Alum is better than vinyl, Pella has botched orders, bad millwork, poor fit, and over-priced. Net-net, sounds like you prefer Anderson to Pella.
Sis works in the real estate dept of a major corp, as a project mgr/project designer. Seems to know design stuff, but doesn't know cad. Don't know her background, but I think most of her work is commercial, not residential.
Do it right, or do it twice.
AMEN --pella is not a quality product
sister-in-law is a know nothing.... Andersen vinyl clad will outlast any alum. clad...or at least long enuff so S-i-L will be in her grave before it becomes an issue..
here on the seacoast, And. outperforms Pella in all categories... given a choice between the 400 and the Pella.. the 400 wins hands down
ask around about service and warranty..some brands do better in some regions than others.. depends on local distributionMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Someone once posted here that often what is important in window brand choice is the quality of the distributor. If you have a distributor for brand A that is going to work for you and be responsive when problems come up and the distributor for brand B is difficult to deal with and doesn't act like your business is important, then you should get brand A.
It makes sense to me.
Another day, another tool.
Having just spent over $60K for windows on a large reno/addition project using Pella, I could not recommend Pella to anyone I have no reason to dislike.
Use Anderson.
LOL
Well put!.
Excellence is its own reward!
I have put Andersen in 4 of my houses -- last one was 34 windows. Each time I went to Pella and the Andersen guy and Andersen won hands down in price, service, and quality -- Pella guys all have their noses in the air -- Andersen will work with you.
Last 34 window job was a brick-to-brick installation that had me ripping out the old units and sliding in the whole Andersen package. Every one was delivered on time, cleaned up and ready to install and the 5 foot French door came out of the box ready to install -- All I had to do was install the door handles -- really a plug in effort. On either side of the 5' door I needed an 18" side lite, however Andersen only carries the 24" -- they special made the 18" and it was effortless. One of the 5'x5' windows cracked in place the second year and Andersen was right there with a replacement for nothing.
Some people like the blinds in the Pella windows and some of the other knick knacks Pella throws in but I want a window that will last and looks good -- I just have not been impressed with Pella lasting and looking good over the long haul.
I have also installed the Andersen Art Glass -- it is pricey, but if you do it in part of the room and not every where it has an effect that is priceless. It is a real tasetful affect.
See for yourself, but am sure after you have given the whole order to both reps Andersen will have an edge that maybe can't be expressed in words because there is just a better 'gut' feeling
all the best
Good post...detailed...first person experience...and it's what I wanted to hear.
Can I get more info about the actual replacement process? How did you remove the old window? Rip out the inside trim and cut the nailing flange loose with a sawzall?
How did you install the new unit? Build a new rough opening and attach the window to that, then trim inside and out?
Do it right, or do it twice.
I had 1953 DH with 2 1/4" brick mold. Here is what I did for Brick to Brick Installation.
Remove the brickmold and the sashes. Take circular saw and cut down from the leading edge of the window sill; follow this line all around the interior stops. Take the widest chisel you have and finish up by cutting down in the 4 corners. the jamb just pulls away. Do not bother the interior trim or sill. My brick to brick openings were exactly 2 1/2 inches bigger than the window unit. I took some 1" plywood and wrapped the top, left and right sides with coil stock - bought a brake that paid for it self - Pro III. The coil stock takes up the extra 1/2" and gives the window something to compress.
On Andersen's, remove the top left and right nailing fins and trimmed the bottom one to 1/2". Set the Al wrapped frame inside -- actually took the place of the brick mold, and slide the Andersens in. It was a very, very tight fit but that is what you want -- the coil stock keeps it snug. Put backer rod at the bottom and used the 50 yr silicone caulk at the bottom, top, and both sides. Most importantly, was the caulk between the brick and the coil stock wrapped frame -- to keep the caulk neat I ran tape along the brick so it would not be smeared against the brick and look sloppy.
The beautiful part of this is the interior trim remains untouched and the sides top and bottom all line up with the sill and the stops. Each window, start to finish (clean up and scaffold removal) takes 3 hours for one man; My son and I could do a dormer, remove all dormer siding, new window, and all new hardiplank siding in a full day. We did six dormers this way and this includes the final coat of paint and painting all cut edges of the plank as we went.
What we put in is better than the original as we had single pane, with storms that needed reglazing and repainting -- a job that would have lasted a day a window if not longer and we would have come back painting again in 7-years or so, plus we gained the added R-factor and cut down on the noise from the busy street. Good Luck
all the best
Dudley, pardon my ignorance, but what is coil stock? Sounds like very useful material.
Thanks for any info.
Howard
Howard-- I'll jump in for Dudley since I'm cruising Breaktime right now. Coil stock is the roll of aluminum used to make trim pieces with a brake. It comes in various colors and each roll is usually 24" by 50'. As for the Anderson vs. Pella debate, I've used both and prefer Anderson. Anderson is what I used in my own house.
Shep, thanks--that makes sense. I had envisioned some kind of resilient material, should have take my clue from the mention of the break.
Howard
Howard-- I forgot to mention that there is also a vinyl coil stock that can be bent and cut like the aluminum. I haven't used it myself, but I understand that it a good product. It won't show scratches thru the color coat like the aluminum.
coil stock is aluminum that you use to wrap trim when you install a window to keep from having another place to paint and maintain -- coil stock usuall come sin white and brown off the shelf and all the colors if you want to pay for it. usually sold in 2'x 25' of coils
Tim -
I'm not interjecting this to pick a fight or defend Pella but ....
Given your dissatisfaction I think it would be fair to ask why.
Piffin -
I've yet to follow through with this but - the house we bought last year and are in the process of remodeling has all Pella windows. Over 25 years old and still all function quite well. There are a few that have warped but the PO didn't do squat to maintain them and in some cases we found on taking possession of the place that the casements had been cranked shut with crud behind the sash distorting the frame thus contributing to a warping situation.
OK, I go to the local Pella distributor and inquire about having a service/customer rep come out to the place and do an inventory on missing parts and needed tune up. The response seems to be that I will have to *PAY* for someone to come out to tell me what all I have to buy to put these windows into tip-top shape.
Like I said, I haven't followed through with this yet but I'll be PO'd royally if they try to charge me for this, a service I think they'd be glad to provide given that I'll be buying lots of missing hardware and such.
No, I'm not gonna yank 'em out and install Anderson (grin)
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis-
Most service reps working for Pella and Andersen are independent home improvement contractors not employees. I know I have better things to do then come to your house for free to tell you what parts to order from the manufacturer. I seriously doubt the service tech is going to give Bill Gates a run for richest man, but he'll know the windows and save you time in the long run.
______________________________________________________________
If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
> ....Most service reps working for Pella and Andersen are independent home improvement contractors not employees.
Of that I was not aware! None the less, they must, or should be under salary or some kind of compensation for their "service", n'est ce pas?? I don't expect anyone to work for free or to provide me with assistance without some compensation and I would *think* that a major vendor like Pella and/or Anderson et al would have reps under employ to provide this kind of service.
Oh-well ....
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
They don't pay for out of warranty service calls, they supply these as leads for independent service techs. And for what they do pay for warrenty inspections and repairs ain't making anyone rich either with paperwork, phone calls, driving and scheduling.
____________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
Dennis, I'm not sure if you were looking for feedback on that or not, but without trying toi argue anything, I think some comments are worthwhile.
Twenty five years ago, Pella was a very different company than they are now. The entire organizarional structure has changed twice, that I know of, in the interim. I have little doubt that they were doing a better job back then. Many of the probelms i experienced with them revolve around their expansion goals, drive for market share, etc.
Many companies have grown too far too fast and let quality suffer.
Service work for most companies is a loss. I look at it as great advertising oppportunmities. On 25YO house, Pella may not look at it as the same marketing opportunity. Many manufacturers would prefer that a selling installer or contractor make that visit to your site. Pella is a direct selling entity instead of manufacturer or wholesaler only sop they should be ready to pay you a visit.
BTW, I didn't come into the thread specificly to trash Pella. Was just responding honestly to questions asked..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin -
I'm *definitely* looking for feedback. And appreciate all the comments. Especially with regard to how the Pella organization has changed through the years.
Over 30 years ago was the last timie I had any dealings with the Pella organization. It was positive in every respect. I can see how, given your input here, that must have changed. My image of Pella has been very positive based on that sole exposure.
I wouldn't expect anyone to come to my home and provide any kind of service for free, as I've alluded in a previous article in this thread. I just thought it rather odd that given I intend to spend a not insignificant amount of money getting these windows tuned up, the mfr. of said windows wasn't able to provide some assistance in determining how much. (grin) But I guess they are, in effect, I just have to pay for the service of determining the cost.
Somehow I have a problem with paying someone to tell me how much money to spend .,..... (grin)
Thank you (and everyone) *very* much for contributing to this thread.
If you're ever in the Seattle area, I hope you'll give me a call and we'll hoist one or two.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
I think the issue is that Pella or their rep has no assurance that you will actually spend the money for the repairs. Or that you will spend the money with them. Maybe you can work a deal that the costr of the inspection visit be credited against the parts cost.
Do it right, or do it twice.
OK but any more than two and you have to put me down for the night...
;)
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Dennis,
My dissatisfaction with Pella has to do with the sale, the installation and the folllowup/repair/service that was provided. The actual product, once installed and properly adjusted, is not a bad product, however it is not superior and does not warrant the price or, in some locales, the reputation that it currently has. The details are many, just suffice it to say that I will not be a repeat customer and will discourage anyone I know from spending money on their products.
Tim
I'm from the Texas coast - How does Showcase Windows stack-up vs Pella or Anderson. I know showcase uses double-pane & virgin vinly for energy efficiency - is this True. I here a house may lose 30% of ots heat or air-conditioning through the window.
In the home repair column in the local newspaper here in Jersey, the columnist consistently slams Pella. Seems that he had repeated warranty problems.
Just to balance this out a bit.
A few years ago the local Andersen distributor sold out and the operation was moved about 50 mi's away. Before the move the lifeline was good, service or product questions were dealt with in a timely manner. Now, no real local way to solve a problem except work the food chain.
However Pella's distributor is here and they have a quality operation. Admittedly their product line is covered in confusing lingo and option packages. This is my only criticism of Pella. I have never had a problem with their product, warrantee issues are handled well. Most of the people in shipping, sales and service have been there awhile. They know their ####.
I chose Marvins in our house 14 yrs ago. I was pleased with the product but the shady distributor had me questioning my decision. The distributor has since gone down the tubes. No real local operation, some yards sell their product.
I have no real favorite I put to the customer. Rather I do have a few lines I refuse to handle. Usually I'll try to see the customer's wants and try to offer a package/brand that satisfies their wish list. Not being a builder certainly limits my experience in volume. Certainly the local support carries alot in my decision making.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I agree with Piffin, Marvin is better than either of the other two, though Anderson may be the best choice for coastal areas as Mike suggests. I've used all three recently and the Marvin products always seem the most trouble free from an installation standpoint. Marvin uses extruded aluminum cladding, not coil stock, which Pella still uses around it's sashes. As someone mentioned though the service you get from your local distributor is important. Marvin's come ready to install from the factory. They don't require any further set-up by the distributor, which can be a huge quality issue. Make sure your low-e coating is on the correct pane for your southern climate.
I may too late to check in on this, but since I work for another window manufacturer (which shall remain anonymous -- for my own protection), I'll share what I've heard in the field. Anderson is probably one of the most consistent products out of the box. If I were forced to make a choice, I'd prefer to make one between Marvin and Anderson, not Pella and Anderson. MW's not bad, but not in the Anderson / Marvin grade, in my opinion.
No matter what you choose, check on coastal grade components (read stainless steel and upgraded paint on aluminum) if that's a factor.
Pella and Andersen are both good. Like Pella when you need a good trick or custom we use Marvin. For more standard applications usually Andersen. Andersen also has better pricing.
Pella makes a fine window, and we use to use them exclusively, but when they went to company stores, with no benefit of bidding, we moved on. We have also had good performance and custom options from Weathershield.
You should really consider the customers long term support for their windows. If you did you wouldn't even consider Weathershield. Wheathershield good for the builder today, bad for your reputation tomorrow.
______________________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
The last home we used Weathershield was a $850 k. The windows were true divided. We had 12 large palladium units that had two different tints of glass rose and green in them, that could only be seen on overcast days. I called Weather shield, they sent out 3 technicians and they changed out the installed panes on the site. In my book, that's pretty good back up. My customer was very impressed
You missed the point. They screwed up big time then had to fix it. Their windows are overpriced trash. They have to be overpriced so you can pay for the in the field patch work, cya, screw ups.
Call them in say 5 years and ask for service on those same windows. Bet you get some down home sticker shock on the pro rating they use. I personally had 10 windows fog, all mfg same date, 5 years later. They wouldn't cover labor for glass and their pro rated glass price was double a local co. Want to talk balances and shoes???? Bend over. And how about the tilt pins that gouge the jamb liner. They are junk... clear and simple. Any builder that uses them should be ashamed.
_______________________________________________________________
If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
You might add, in your obvious humble opinion.
Gee! Old Boy, I liked Weathershield so much that I put them in my own house. going on seven years and still happy.
Excellence is its own reward!
Well piffen maybe you should get up from that computer and take a look outside not through those weather shield windows. Maybe it's not raining and just fogged glass so you could have gone to work today. ;-),
Hey it's just my experience, Maybe my windows were made on a Friday before a holiday but their service did really suck and after 5 years it would have been cheaper to install replacement windows then buy their pro-rated glass and parts. Andersen charges nothing to the homeowner in the first 5 years for any problem, theirs or installers. If they have a production problem they double the warranty to cover all the straggelers. I'm just glad I know how to fix them and I give myself a good customer discount.
____________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
'snot fog, it's sea smoke!
In the intrest of being objective here, let's talk more about Weathershield.
They are innovators in the field of custom design and true divided lights. About six or seven years ago when customer wanted true + lites and narrow line muntins both, Weathershield was the only team willing to ty to make it. The Marvin setup had a minimum 1-3/8" muntin. That commercial looking bulk looked terrible against historic work.
There are definitely inherant problems with narrow muntins, TDL, and insulated glass. It is neccessary to make the glass panels with a narrower metal frame and seal so there is less contact surface making the seal. Add to that, the fact that six or nine panes in an operating unit is always going to be less stable than a single unit. These issues are why a higher percentage of their glass seals leaked for a time.
I understand that they (and others) have improved the adhesion and intergrity of thesse units since then. Other manufacturers have followed their lead and now market narrow muntined true divided lites also.
Pioneers get shot at more often than others because they get out in front.
I've had some sort of problem with every window brand I ever used, except Weathershield, so I can't testify to their backup service. I agree that Andersen is stellar in the regard..
Excellence is its own reward!
Pif-
Sounds like you got some real fancy windows there. Mine are basic tilt in with glass size approx 24" x 32" per sash. Real basic units with lots of problems.
______________________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
I've used WeatherShield only once when a HO spec'd a cherry frame window to match the kitchen cabinets and the custom Marvin window was too high in price. The window looked good, but it did develop the fogging problem in the glass. The local rep did replace the sashes at no cost even though the windows were almost six years old. However, I kept hearing that they were having problems with them and the distributor here finally went out of business.
By far the biggest complaints I have with Andersens is that they aren't available in any other wood, just the pine. I've used Marvin and a local company for windows in oak or cherry, but I do wish Andersen would offer them as an option.
I like andersen, but I have a perspective or two that hasn't been brought up.
Pella has so many lines, choices and options that they have a hard time keeping them straight. When you place the order you have to sign for it and then they are yours pretty much. The problem is their nomenclature on the order is so detailed and confusing, and sometimes wrong, that you have to have it explained to you by the salesman who may not understand it. So when the windows get delivered and something aint right, they will try and put it off on you.
The other problem is the the amount of choices can be confusing to the homeowner. I have sent homeowners to the showroom (kind of nice to let them see the product firsthand) and the salesmen do a couple of things that are annoying. First, they will attempt to blow the window budget with the high priced add-ons that in some instances are only available if you move up in the product lines, further expanding the budget. Second, they have their own installers on the replacement side. While their price to install replacements is in the ballpark, the unintended effect may be that they give your customer advice on replacemnents, ie. they told one of my customers that the precision fit was better for the job than a full tear-out. Without even seeing the job. I lost that job. And my opinion is that the precision fit is a window within a window similar to replacements. You can see it from the street, but definitely on the inside too.
Pella has a great marketing scheme, and the ability to suck additional profit from the upgrades, but little else. And I've been screwed a couple times on service, even when I bought the most expensive window they sell.
I buy andersen from a local guy who sells to me at the same discount every time. With pella, you never know what your discount is.
Tom