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Guys-
I wish this was a joke, but unfortunately it’s not.
You see, my brother-in-law recently bought his first house. So far I haven’t gotten many straight answers, but it sounds like this place is way beyond “handyman’s special”…As we speak, he, and a carpenter friend (whom is getting paid under the table), is running wire in the kitchen (Dec. 19). According to them, the drywall and cabinets should be in place by Christmas. (Talk about Xmas miracles…)
I’m not a builder, but I’ve read FH long enough to fear that something’s amiss. When I’ve mentioned things like “contracts,” “bonds,” and “permits,” it’s as if the phone has gone dead. I’m afraid that, in order to save money, as well as the potential delays of building inspectors, etc., he has decided to do without.
Do I have reason to be afraid, or am I just a scaredy-cat? Please, if you guys can provide me with any information, I’d sincerely appreciate it. I’d like to give him a pile of responses from pros that know. More than anything, I want to save him from losing his (first) house, and the shirt off his back.
Much thanks in advance,
Joe
Replies
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Joe
Sometimes no matter how much we tell them, they just don't want to listen.
Points to mention to them
* Liability - insurance. If there is an electrical fire due to any work they do, ignorance is not an excuse and does not release them for being responsible. Insurance companies can and have been known not to pay because of DIYer's attempt to save money and lack of knowledge.
* Liability - injury to the "under-the-table" helper. Can your brother-in-law afford an expensive medical bill or long term compensation if his helper is injured?
I think that no matter what you say to him, he will not listen.
Good luck
Vince
*The need for permits is locale dependent.Some places say everything, some say only liscensed for certain things, some say homeoner can pull for work they do themselves. some say no permits required.some say......specific locale is needed for someone to give you an answer that is accurate for where the work is being done.
*Maybe an anonymous phone call to the building dept. would be in order ? Not to rat on him, just to say you're "thinking about working on your own kitchen and wonder about permits". That would give your the info we can't, as bobl mentioned.
*As mentioned, insurance - his insurance co. may not honor policy/claim, if damage results from his work. Additionally, and hypothetically (read: a guess, I don't know) when he goes to sell the house he may need to do a "discovery" of known problems, hazardous materials, etc. Say he stripped asbestos floor tiles out, he'd have to acknowledge that. I assume he's not a certified abatement specialist, so it (probably) wouldn't be compliant, causing more problems. Asbestos is just one example, there are others, I'd think.
*since this is your BIL.. what does your sister think.. or is it your wife's brother ?ah'm so cornfused..sometimes it's best to cross your fingers and back away .. you've already made your position plain to him...he'll likely resent your "interference"why does this sound like a dear abbey reply ?
*Haven't you got anything better to do than worry about someone else's house????
*My opinion- I always pull electrical permits, which I think is the most important anyway as it is a fire risk. Insurance more likely to pay up if it was inspected (I would hope). As for inside remodeling- non load bearing walls, windows, etc...my local building department doesn't seem to have the sharpest nails in the bag so I skip their nonsense...I have actually received some good pointers from my electrical inspector and it was worth the $30 just for the info he gave...Good luck-B
*In alot of areas, electrical permits can be pulled by home owner as long as he is "doing his own work" nod nod wink wink.Then it's inspected, all legal and no problems.If he's doing good work, having paperwork sure won't make the work any better, or the house any safer. I say leave the guy alone and let him do what he wants with his own house. Get a hobby.
*The # basic choices you have is: 1- Yes 2- No 3- Do nothing I agree with Smitty & Ryan. It would be #3.
*Vince just about summed it up. the only thing I could add is if and when he decides to sell he may have to show permits. its kind of pay me now or pay me later sort of thing. Since it is a BIL thing. Turn wifey loose on sister and she'll straigten him right out.
*MYOB
*Most localities allow a homeowner to do as he pleases with his own house to some specified degree. This has to do with property rights which are the basis of our constitutional and economic syustem.He might screw up royally but the only reason you have to be concerned is if he has to move in with you after he burns it down or whatever. That gets into your property, not his and that is when it becomes your business.
*Amen!
*It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. Today is day 763 of my pursuit of a building permit for what is really some very minor remodeling. I really want to do it kosher, but Oy! They make it so much harder to get a permit than to not get caught not having one that of course a huge number of people choose to bootleg. Take a tip from Sgt. Schultz -- you saw nothink, absolutely nothink.-- J.S.
*Aside form setting the house on fire with faulty wiring, I think the biggest problem will be on the re-sale of the house. If this is a "fixerupper" Down the road when he wants to sell it he'll have it appraised. If there is a bunch of new work someone might get shifty and want to see some permits. At that point he will be at the mercy of the inspectors, (something I don't wish on anyone) They can demand that everything be re-done before they sign off. (this is worse case by the way, in the end no one may be the wiser.)
*Where i live (Asheville,NC), if you buy a house that has 1 bath on the CO, and then try to sell as a 2-bath after a remodel, there has to be documentation on the 2nd bath. If you don't pull a permit, you could end up with an inspector retroactively signing off,(i.e. tear out the walls for inspection) or an unsaleable property. be careful.
*True Story:My dad's an architect and a fairly good handyman. He was up in New Hampshire putting a new front porch on his house. A guy in a fire chief car drives up, turns around, and unrolls his window. "Building a new porch?" he says."Yep," my dad says."Got a permit for that construction?""Nope.""Well, I'm the fire chief for Merideth.""Well, thats good," said my father, "because the town line is right over there. This house is in New Hampton."They both had a good laugh and the fire chief drove off. Suprisingly, he didn't report him.
*I was thinking ((oooohhhh nnooo!!!) when the time comes to sell he could sell it "as is" it might limit the sale as for price and the amount of people who'll buy it but it is a option.
*I hate permits mainly because in my area, inspectors give a 2-day window of when they will show up. When you're waiting around to move ahead on the project, this time sink drives me insane. I'm not anti-permit, but many GCs in my area are hit-or-miss (as am I) when it comes to pulling them, especially with small projects. I don't approve of running electrical lines without having some experience, but it really would be hard using modern electrical lines and fixtures to make an unsafe condition - one that could arc and cause a fire. I've replaced a lot of shoddy electrical work and think sometimes about the generally low incidence of residential electrical fires. I'd advise that you should give the BIL a how-to electrical book as a reference and doublecheck that his outlets are all GFI receptacles. Also, home sale contracts are likely locale specific, but in my area, the legal disclaimer form has two sentences that are relevant and I will paraphrase: 1. Has any work been performed without a permit, that requires a permit? 2. Has any un-permitted work been performed that doesn't meet code requirements? So I think if you do things to code and can answer yes & no, respectively to these questions, most buyers wouldn't think twice. If any of the exposed work is not done to code, hopefully it will be caught by the home inspector...
*Joe, don't confuse permits with quality construction. Permits are mainly used so the local taxers can keep track increases in taxable value. Sure, having someone look at the construction might help it be safer, or "better"(whatever that is). Or, it might not.So, my advise is remember that how good construction is depends mainly on who is doing the work and how quality and safety minded they are. So, if your BIL is happy and your Sis is happy I'd butt out until they ASK for advise. If they never ask then nod sagely when you visit and talk about the weather or somesuch.Remember everyone has the right to make their own decisions AND to live with the consequences..
*And Blessed be God for creating free will!
*Joe:Are you familiar with electrical work? Do you know the experience of the carpenter? Do you have doubts about the ability of your BIL or the carpenter to do a safe job? Do you know the scope of the job?If not, it's going to look like you:1. Want to pretend you know a lot more than you do because you read something on the internet.2. Are sore because your BIL is doing something you paid more to have done (if that is the case, since you mention "under the table"). Procede with caution if you must. You may lose a BIL AND sister-and not from poor electrical work.
*Out here in SoCal, the permits are so easy to get, and so cheap, that I always pull them. I tend to work only in a couple geographic areas, so you get to know the inspectors. They offer terrific advice, and I learn from them constantly. The issue of whether or not to pull a permit is governed by local law. Here it is structural, electrical or mechanical where the cost of construction is over $500.If it were my place, I'd pull a permit. But hey, its not your place, and you only get into trouble by advising someone.
*
Guys-
I wish this was a joke, but unfortunately it's not.
You see, my brother-in-law recently bought his first house. So far I haven't gotten many straight answers, but it sounds like this place is way beyond "handyman's special"...As we speak, he, and a carpenter friend (whom is getting paid under the table), is running wire in the kitchen (Dec. 19). According to them, the drywall and cabinets should be in place by Christmas. (Talk about Xmas miracles...)
I'm not a builder, but I've read FH long enough to fear that something's amiss. When I've mentioned things like "contracts," "bonds," and "permits," it's as if the phone has gone dead. I'm afraid that, in order to save money, as well as the potential delays of building inspectors, etc., he has decided to do without.
Do I have reason to be afraid, or am I just a scaredy-cat? Please, if you guys can provide me with any information, I'd sincerely appreciate it. I'd like to give him a pile of responses from pros that know. More than anything, I want to save him from losing his (first) house, and the shirt off his back.
Much thanks in advance,
Joe