I continue to learn and re-learn from reading this forum religiously. I wish I had more (something) to offer but, for now, I appreciate the knowledge and willingness to help of the craftsman among you.
I have decided to definitely use PEX for my new home which, 2 1/2 years in, contniues to progress. Which is the preferred and best method of installation, crimping or expanding?
Thanks again.
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Replies
A couple of recent discussions involved PEX and included some discussion on the type of fittings....
The threads are http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=84353.1 and http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=84508.1 spend a bit of time looking them over.
From what I recall it basically boiled down to what's available in your area and the cost of the crimp or expander tool. Each method works well if installed correctly and each method has it's own uniqueness.
I personally used copper crimp in my house and loved it. I bought the 1/2 & 3/4 crimp combo tool, I believe around $75. Not sure what your planning on for design, but you have a load of flexibility literally. I installed a home run design with a valved manifold.
Best of luck,
Rip
I went with the expando and sleeve. The combo tool was not to $$$ and with the 1/2" expander head it fits in small places. I have learned (the hard way) of how to place the barb fitting so i can get the sleeve compressor end around the shoulder of the barb fitting. The expander also worked well in cold climates. I expand and hold for a 10 count, then the tube retains it's expanded shape long enough to slide on the barb. As far as the tube, it is WAY better than soldering in tight places.
Uponor claims their expanded pro plex fittings are equivilant to a soldered fitting, i.e. they can be burried in a wall or in a concrete floor and they do not restrict flow.
Hi BillD60:
For what it's worth I use the crimp type rather than the expander. However, I would probably buy the expander if I was going to do it again. Why? A couple of reasons:
1. Like a plumber told me, the expander is a no-brainer. You might get distracted and forget to crimp a fitting. You can guess the rest if that happens. Plus, with the gradual tightening of the contracting PEX you can still make micro adjustments to line up fittings, etc.
2. You need a lot of room to fully open the crimping tool and sometimes when you're doing a reno and you're wedged between studs and walls you can't get the crimper to open wide enough.
3. Most fittings are getting easier to find, however HD still stocks mostly crimp-type fittings. It used to be that you could only buy from wholesalers and that was a pain due to minimum quantities and Banker's hours of operation.
Anyway, no matter what you choose, the PEX is so much easier than copper, especially if you're just so-so with soldering and don't like to fiddle with exact cuts. Just treat the tool with respect and remember to use the G0/N0-GO gauging tool that comes with your crimper to ensure the crimp rings are installed properly. I usually keep the gauge attached to the crimper with short chain and a carabineer. If you don't have it close by you might be inclined to skip checking your work - a leak could really wreck your day. Good luck.
Cheers,
Ken
"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
Great info' and just what I needed to combine with other's help. The expanding tool seems to be more expensive but I'm doing this myself and always rationalizing a new tool against labor savings!
I use Wirsbo w/ the expander and like it -- a LOT. There is one thing you have to be careful of. When you expand, it is about a 3- or 4-repetition process, with the tool going into the pipe a little further each time, until it bottoms out. You need to make sure you rotate the tool about 1/8 of a turn each time you expand to make sure the pipe is expanded equally and does not have groves caused by the expander fingers hitting the same spot on each repetition. This is a little trickier than it sounds, since the expander head on the Wisrbo tool is loose enough to rotate and it may not spin in the pipe when you move the handles to turn the tool. You need to watch the expander fingers and make sure they turn as well.
That said, a lot depends on what you can get locally. Here, there are more places with the crimp-type fittings than the expand-type fittings, and they are not interchangable. (At least, that's what I'm told -- never tried it myself.)
It's definately worth the investment to pick up the tool, whichever one you choose. Heck, what you save in materials cost by using PEX instead of copper will more than pay for the tool on the first job of any size. Then, you'll have it the next time, and your savings will be even greater. (Not to mention that it's about 10X quicker to run PEX than copper.)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I use "Oetiker" clamps and a Zurn crimper. One crimper fits all sizes. Google Oetiker and you will see what I am talking about. Zurn is a major manufacturer of PEX so it must be OK with them.
Zurn fittings have had some problems.
http://www.zurnclassaction.com/?gclid=CJvozvLCu5gCFRRhnAodwDQeag
Never say anything bad about a person untill you have walked a mile in his shoes, by then you will be a mile away from him and you will have his shoes.
This is the first I've heard of this, and I have to say it's got me worried. Our family beach house was completely plumbed with these fittings, and unfortunately we didn't use a manifold system so we've got fittings buried in walls all over the house! Do you know any more about this besides what's on that website you posted? Specifically, was there a different batch that has confined these problems to Minnesota versus the Southeast where I am? Thanks for the info -
Jamie
Mike is quite correct in that the longer term lower cost way to go is with either the expanding means or the crimp system, I have a couple of hundred Sharks and I use them for some things they have valves and check valves , a good assortment of fittings. And in fact while they are made by a rather reputable company Cash Acme, and rated for either in ground buryial or non-accessible wall enclosure, I have a bit of reservation dus as mentioned to the means of sealing an o-ring. The rubber is likely sourced from China and is not "Viton' for example. That being said I have held 20 pounds air as well as water for weeks at a time. Talk about ease I do say that these were developed for use by simians as well.
They say they have some plastic fittings that are best but I do not know anything other than what is in the website.
I have used Quest brass fittings (sold by Lowes and plumbing houses in the Atlanta area) for years with no problems but I don't put joints in walls or under slabs.
The plastic fittings Quest once sold for Polybutelene were allways failing.
Never say anything bad about a person untill you have walked a mile in his shoes, by then you will be a mile away from him and you will have his shoes.
I have done all my house plumbing with Watts WaterPEX and their CinchClamps - kind of a hybrid crimp/clamp. They seem to be working great, no leaks under pressure, only time will tell. It's all that was available locally, otherwise I would probably have gone with the Wirsbo expanding system.
Jon,
I'm thinking of using the Watts Waterpex system in a remodel job but it would be a first thus I'm trying to gather all the data I can before I commit.
I see it's been a while since you plumbed your house with it.
Is there any thing you could say pro or con about the system now that you've been around it a while?
Any advice on what to watch out for in the installation?
Thanks.
94969.19 In the beginning there was Breaktime...
94969.1 Photo Gallery Table of Contents
Ain't been on BT in a LONG time, but hey, I'll help ya.
I love it. It's quiet, easy to work with and relatively inexpensive. No leaks with the Watts proprietary crimp fittings. There's a lot of interchangeability so the Sharkbite, or most any other manufacturer's crimp system should work with the Watts PEX. Even in the couple of years since I finished my install, they've come out with a bunch of neat new fittings that should make the installation even easier - different valves, manifolds, etc. I guess I'm just rambling here - I am happy with it.
One thing I did notice, that I didn't expect, was that the hot water PEX expands a LOT. Lengthwise. I have a bunch of places where a run might be unsupported for 3-4 feet, and there is a 4-6" sag in the line where it was guitar-string tight when installed. Obviously there's no such issues with the cold water. I recommend extra supports for the hot lines.
I am doing a garage/shop in the spring and I plan on using it again, no hesitation, for a half-bath and hose spigot in the garage. I have also recommended it to a number of friends who are doing whole-house remodels and they are sold on it just from seeing my install.
ok, thanks for that.
94969.19 In the beginning there was Breaktime...
94969.1 Photo Gallery Table of Contents
I was thinking.. Yea, I know.
If you want to expand the pex could you use one of those tools for expanding car battery clamps?
You stick it inside a battery clamp and squeeze it like plyers to expand the clamp.
I splurged on the crimp tools and never had a problem with them.
I would go with crimp as I see much much more of it around these parts and dont need to be a rebel.
Yes, there is a little investment but for a big renovation or whole house, it will pay off.
I'd use the manibloc system too.
Quite nice
I must say all this talk about crimp or expanded has got my head spinning. You are doing a remodel? Just use Shark Bite fittings, no hassle, no tools, no crimping, no expanding, just plug and play.
From what I have read, there was a problem with the sharkbite for a while.
They still have a problem, they cost like 6-10 bucks apiece!
YIKES!!!!!!!!
The price is relative. I think that if you are a full time plumber, it pays to use one of the proprietary tool systems to make joints.
You need a certain level of practice and skill to consistently make leakproof joints.If you are a homeowner, or do plumbing once in a while, shark bite and pex, to me are the way to go. Pex, unlike copper, needs way fewer joints.On a typical remodel, when I have to tap into a line, I end up using 3 shark bites. One coupling, one tee, and one drop ear, plus the pex. The 3 sharkbites will cost $12-15 dollars, and the pex 1/2" costs 50 cents a foot. It takes about 20 minutes to do the whole run, even with water in the pipes.To me it just is the fast, most efficient system out there. My business is all about finding faster, better ways to do my work.The technology in used in shark bites has been around for decades.Shark bites also fit copper, cpvc, as well as pex.The only time I use copper now is from the drop ear out the wall. I have made up a few 1/2" copper pipes with a male thread on one end and a cap on the other. If I could purchase these in the store I would so that I could get rid of my whole copper soldering set up.
You need a certain level of practice and skill to consistently make leakproof joints.
That's the second time you've posted something like that.
It's not true.
If you can't operate a set of PEX crimpers you probably can't operate a hammer or a screwdriver.
Have you ever tried it, or just guessing?
Joe H
And a combination 3/4", 1/2" crimper is under $200. Doesn't take too many shark bites to equal that.
I've helped a plumber buddy do a bunch of crimp on pex. As long as you keep the crimpers fairly square to the pipe, no problems. Nother nice thing about crimp on is that you can swivel whatever's crimped... makes crimping in cramping spaces a little easier.http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
You are correct, I have never tried it. I am just going on horror stories I had heard about shoddy joints. Also, these tools and joint material are not available in your local stores, I wonder why that is?Still I cannot see the point of pursuing, since I am not a full time plumber, a tool joint when the shark bites are so convenient and fast.What system do you use? I would be interested in seeing it in operation. How does the joint work when you have to tie into copper? What if you are not using pex and just working on copper, does it work with copper?I would have responded to previous query, but you came across in an extremely hostile manner. It is not necessary to behave that way, so I just chose to ignore you. You came across slightly less hostile this time, you might want to continue in that direction.
Edited 2/1/2009 5:47 pm ET by yojimbo2
I have heard stories of problems with pex.
Never had one.
Use it quite a bit.
I bought all the crimpers (3/8", 1/2" and 3/4") Have them now so dont have to worry about the investment.
Never had any issue. They are about as easy to work with as a phillips screwdriver and unless you are inept, you can be quite successful with them.
I actually take the extra 10 minutes to cut out and install a sweat fitting in the copper and adapt to the pex with no mechanical fittings uness I just run the copper.
I like pex and copper but never a big fan of mixing them up unless I need to. (I wont run copper near exterior walls and if I have to renovate I will run pex in those areas)
I use sharkbites for temporary caps as I take them off and re-use them but I am not convinced that a sharkbite will not pop off and soak the house down. I am convinced that my sweat and crimp joints will not pop off and soak the house down.
I would rather not have to submit an insurance claim and I am sure they would tell me that I did something wrong if it ever popped off.
Even if the sharkbite never do pop off, unlike a compression, sweated or crimped fitting they rely on a rubber gasket which will degrade over time. I just don't feel comfortable with sharkbites in an enclosed cavity. They are fine for places where you can keep an eye on them.
Re. sharkbites.
Yep. I am with you f&t. I have messed with them and they seem great. (too good to be true) and when I have something like that that has not been tested for years and years, I am wary.
I am betting that most fitting will last a long time but will all of them? And the ones that fail, will they be on my job?
And when failure occurs, I would be afraid of catastrophic (popping off, not starting to weep)
I am reasonably progressive on some stuff but that one I just want to watch for a while.
You are correct, I have never tried it.
That is obvious from your post.
Joe H
What is obvious from your post is you are petty and vindictive. Whatever.
You crimp?
Cope.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Don't let it bother you. I think some guys are just competitive about stuff.
A guy here seemed to be over the top with me last week. I told him so and he apologized. Nice guy.
I might have been a little touchy as well. I had a hard day with a few people being disrespectful with me.
"A guy here seemed to be over the top with me last week."It's the Internet. For all you know "he" may have been a particularly knowledgeable but argumentative thirteen year old girl. :)
I don't think so. You weren't there.
You weren't either. That's kind of what I'm getting at. It's amazing how bent out of shape we get in these arguments over what are usually really inconsequential matters that occur in the nowhere of cyberspace, with people we have for the most part never met. Attaching emotions to any of this is a waste of time.
I appreciate your post. Thanks.
No problem. It's just common decency as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes we all have had a bad day and it helps to just take stock of it.
When someone gives advice to a poster, they should have some knowledge of the subject.
The OP asked about PEX, looking for advice.
The advice given by yojimbo was wrong and indicated a lack of knowledge. When I asked if he was speaking from experience he admitted that he had none.
So why is he pizzed? Because he was called on it?
Isn't the point of BT to seek and share information?
If you have none, don't share it.
Joe H
Joe, I was helping someone who felt they were disrespected as a person.
My post was not dirrected to you at all.
I've been on the recieving end of what I considered disrespect and it does help to come alongside someone.
It doesn't matter why. I just like to help others if I can.
This forum is much more than just information about building.
There are people behind these posts that have feelings.
Like I said, my post was not dirrected at you or to you at all.
If you feel like you might have contributed to any ill feelings just let them know that wasn't your intention.
It doesn't cost you anything. I think the opposite is true. You go up in esteem in toher peoples eyes.
I'm not telling you to do anything. I'm not getting inbetween.
Sometimes people don't choose their words very well and can get in a bit of a squable. It happens all the time to me. So I try to talk to the person and work it out.
Believe me, I fall short of this all the time. It's just something I try to do.
By the way. I wouldn't want to relly on Sharkbite type fitting for the long term. I just installed a few last week. They went in fine but they are just temporary. I have seen in the past o rings that were cracked or stiff. One o ring between me and a leak somewhere in a house just doesn't inspire confidence in me.
This morning I stopped by a plumbing supply house and looked at the brass fittings where you expand the pex. I just don't want to buy the tool.
I'm looking around for one to borrow or rent.
Edited 2/4/2009 12:33 pm ET by popawheelie
Well, I'm finishing up redoing all the plumbing in a house my wife and I recently purchased, had the rough-in inspection done (I have to move one sink vent, darn, but that's it), I used pex (crimp method) with a home-run layout, first time I've ever worked with it, and ...Wow I LOVE it! I soldered a few copper pipes for the shower valve installation behind a wall (mostly because I couldn't figure out a better way to mount the valve except using the copper pipes as support), but used pex for everything else. It saved me $$$ and countless hours of work. Again, this is the first time I've ever used pex and I am NOT a professional plumber -- but I do have extensive experience working on cars and hi-pressure power steering connections, so I know the fun of a bad/leaky connection spraying poisonous hot liquids all over the place. :-)Back to PEX and my own experiences: I used the crimp ring method simply because it was easily available locally, rental crimpers were $10/day at Home Depot. I strongly suspect that any of the established methods, crimp, expander, stainless steel clip, are all good, just whatever fits your $$$ and work style. I did find a combo crimper on ebay (1/2" and 3/4", perfect for my needs) for about $70, these are "custom" made by some guy on his CAD machine and they're really well done, easily as good as the rental tools I've seen of this style. They are a bit on the big side but they make crimping really easy on the wrist, and in my case all my crimps were in places I knew I'd have access to. I planned ahead, always a good idea!I've had no problems with the crimpers or crimp rings, though I have done what I consider "iffy" crimps that, while they held up just find in testing, just didn't look good enough to my satisfaction. So I cut off the ring with a small angler grinder. They make a tool to cut off bad crimp rings, but I've got several angle grinders and it takes about five seconds to cut off a bad crimp ring this way, I'm handy with a grinder though so maybe others would find the cutting tool necessary. You *will* make at least one bad crimp while starting out, so first try this crimping rings on various test fittings, plus see how hard it it to cut off a bad crimp on your workbench, rather than learn you can't reach it in real life. :-/Good luck and have fun!
"mostly because I couldn't figure out a better way to mount the valve except using the copper pipes as support" Why don't valves come with brackets so you can screw them to backing? There must be some reason. Surely having to lace copper straps around them isn't the best solution they can come up with?
Let's compare ProPex joints to Sharkbites. A typical 1/2" Tee or El with Propex costs about $1 for the fittings. A similar fitting with Sharkbites is $6 for an El and $8 for a Tee. The ProPex expander and bit will run you around $200 new. That means, if you're gonna make 30 - 40 joints, you paid for your tool -- hardly "full-time plumber". And operating the tool is NOT rocket science. I learned from the factory rep in about 1 minute, and have never had a bad joint. And making a joint with one is not a time-consuming task.
Sharkbites are a nice product, but so is the expander. Making a handful of joints in the basement and then swearing of plumbing for good? Use Sharkbites. But if you have more than a handful of joints in your future, I'd vote for picking up the tool.
And, added bonus - you can buy PEX/Copper drops and stubs. So, with the expander, you can put the torch in mothballs. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA