We are in process of building a new home, and having it plumbed with PEX. Our plumber (whom we are losing confidence in due to sloppy work) has been using brass fittings to join the PEX tubing. We have heard from several sources that these fittings are no longer recommended due to cases where they have failed causing major damage. We have even heard that they have been taken off the market in several (many?) states. Should we be demanding they be replaced? Is this a serious problem?
Thanks for any input.
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I'd be uneasy about buried fittings (splices) but nothing else.
How many copper fittings and pipes have gone bad? I just replaced a bad elbow in a very expensive home that was built long befor all the cheap China stuff was being imported.
When you say buried fittings, do you mean buried in the ground? If they are failing, shouldn't we be worried about failure of fittings "buried" in sheetrock? Have these fittings, in fact, been removed from the market? And, if they have, why would a plumber still be using them?
Buried in walls is all I care about
"I'd be uneasy about buried fittings (splices) but nothing else."
How do you plumb a job without burying splices? On a typical pex install I use dozens of elbows, tees and reducers - all of which end up behind drywall.
I should have been more clear. Burried in my gypcrete floor. Yes elbows are needed to your fixtures.
Hmmmm... pretty much all the PEX fittings I have seen are brass. What brand are we talking about here? Any links re the product failure or removal from market?
Never seen a failed brass PEX fitting. The old plastic QEST ones were very prone to cracking.
Still see a bad crimp job occasionally.
Don't bury too many if you can help it, and map the locations of the ones you do.
Good luck
The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Our plumber (whom we are losing confidence in due to sloppy work) has been using brass fittings to join the PEX tubing.
Could you elaborate on "sloppy work"?
We have heard from several sources that these fittings are no longer recommended due to cases where they have failed causing major damage. We have even heard that they have been taken off the market in several (many?) states.
Who exactly was telling you this?
Pex is a fabulous product, but it's also fairly new to some people who are used to using copper pipe only. A pex install SHOULD NOT look like a copper install.
Some may also have a special interest in you using copper pipe as it takes a TON more labor to install. Me thinks you we talking to another plumber, who was trying to muscle in on the other plumbers job and giving you a line of BS to smooth the transition.
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
I wonder if the plumber is trying to sweat the PEX to the fittings??
That does take a high level of skill, limited to a select few.
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
I have never had a brass fitting fail on me since PEX hit our market after Quest went out with the failure of the gray plastic fittings. which would probably be about 15 years ago.
I've set some crimps on the diagonal and left a few un-crimped and I've shot trim nails through PEX pipe that would only leak when the pipe was hot and then stop leaking as soon as the water cooled down.
I've seen casting failures in threaded brass fittings and acid water damage on copper elbows. In twenty years of plumbing I've even seen one brass PEX elbow where the machining didn't connect and water couldn't flow through it. (figuring that out was a nightmare, I still keep that fitting on the dash board of my truck to show folks)
But I've never seen a brass PEX fitting fail nor heard of them being pulled off the market in any state for this issue.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Robki
We use the Wirsbo (Uponor) PEX. The type with the expanding tool.
I consider the brass to be superior to the plastic, and twice the price.
The fittings rarely leak and the leaks can always be traced to installer error. (we are talking about myself or my crew making the errors).
The expanding tool has to be rotated 1/8 to 1/4 turn with each expansion, and sometimes in tight quaters that is difficult.
I had read at one time that parts of CA did not allow brass because their water was hard on brass.
Otherwise I wouldn't worry about the brass fittings.
Rich
Thought this is BS, but googled up "PEX fitting failure"
and got a hell of a surprise.
Zurn had a problem, those stainless crimp rings have problems and more apparently.
However, copper will pin hole leak too. galvy rusts, nothing is forever.
Still, do your own research and as to your plumber doing sloppy work, please define.
Joe H
As others have asked, what kind of pex & what about the brass is failing?
I use all kinds of different materials when it comes to water distribution--- Copper, Stainless steel, pex, ductile iron, galvanized iron, brass, cpvc et al
Irrespective of the PEX, if corrosion of brass is a problem in your area (yes it does happen) Google search for “DZR brass fittings” as one solution.<!----><!----><!---->
Some PEX manufacturers such as Uponor will offer this option.<!----><!---->
Thanks, all, for your replies. To answer some questions, and to clarify my original post:
The reported failures are based on class action lawsuits in Minnesota (and elsewhere) against Zurn. Apparently there were a number of brass fittings that failed (dezincification?). I believe Zurn has pulled their brass fittings from the market in several states. (It was not a case of another plumber trying to get our business; this plumber is not interested in working on our house.)As for the sloppy work that I referred to; it involved things like patching together numerous short lengths of PEX with no apparent reason (4" and 6" lengths with no fixtures between); supply lines for the toilet on the right rather than left side, as well as code violations. The guy is sloppy–he has had to move fixtures and lines that were put in wrong, and he placed the gas meter base too close to an opening window. We are just trying to figure out how worried to be. I am gathering from your responses that failure of these brass fittings is not a widespread phenomenon. Still, I wonder if it might not be better to have the plastic.
No, it's not better to have CPVC. CPVC becomes brittle, is less tolerant of freezes and although it is DIY friendly, it does not have the ease of installation and "home run" capabilities of PEX.
Max
I think he means plastic PEX fittings.
Rich
patching together numerous short lengths of PEX with no apparent reason (4" and 6" lengths with no fixtures between);
He bought a 500 ft roll of tubing, and he intends to use every bit of it. Nothing going to the landfill from his project! I would be concerend if i saw even one piece that short spliced into a run."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
NO, he bought a 500-ft roll, and wants to have as much left as possible.
So, he cuts the runs short. Once he figures out he needs another few inches to make the fixture, he splices in the short run to make it there.
As for the sloppy work that I referred to; it involved things like patching together numerous short lengths of PEX with no apparent reason (4" and 6" lengths with no fixtures between); supply lines for the toilet on the right rather than left side, as well as code violations. The guy is sloppy–he has had to move fixtures and lines that were put in wrong, and he placed the gas meter base too close to an opening window. We are just trying to figure out how worried to be.
Low bidder?
I'd insist that the guy remove all short lengths of pex and "home run" them assuming you are using a manifold.
You did not specify brand so I cant guess if you are using manabloc or other.
I have had copper fittings corrode thru (all 5 of them in 8 years(on a well) but the brass ones are perfectly fine and I have cut a couple out and they look as clean as the day they went in from inside and out.
I think I have one fitting buried in the ceiling over the kitchen from a drill boo boo but otherwise there are no other fittings behind the drywall.
That is a distinct advantage of a responsibily installed pex systsem.
Robki;
With over 40 years in the plumbing trade (includes 16 as plumbing inspector), my comment is: no plumbing system is without problems, but PEX is about as close to it as you can get. As with all piping materials, the biggest potential for problems is from faulty installation practices. That said, my vote would still be for PEX with brass fittings unless you find that dezincification of brass is a problem in your area. Get the real answer from your local plumbing inspector--he sees more plumbing in a month than any plumber will see in a year, and he will have heard from homeowners and others if there is a pervasive problem that should worry you.
The plumber, as you describe him, will do better with PEX than anything else he might try. If you can get your local plumbing inspector involved, or even if not, obtain the manufacturer's instructions about proper PEX installations and make sure your plumber follows them. Check for things like bends that are too tight; misaligned crimp rings; crimp rings that cover the end of the pipe (about 1/8" should show past the crimp ring, according to manufacturers I know); fittings should be inserted fully into the pipe; pipe supported at minimum intervals. All this and more will be in the manufacturer's installation instructions, and anything in writing is better than simple verbal criticism or opinions from me or anybody else.
Exactly. This is usually available from manufacturers websites these days, and is ususally pretty easy to follow the diagrams to understand what they should be looking for.
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
Robki, where are you located?
Brass fittings have been a problem in places like Minnesota and North Carolina because so many people there are on wells. To oversimplify a bit, groundwater in these areas are "thirsty" for zinc and over time will draw the zinc out of the brass which in turn causes them to leak.
This is why Zurn decided to pull brass out of those areas and replace with a new style of plastic fitting which I must say seems almost indestructable. Their new stainless steel crimping system is pretty nice too. Far more difficult to mis-install. (kind of like misremembering?)
Other advice given here notwithstanding, don't listen to building inspectors about anything having to do with PEX unless they themselves are sold on the product. My building inspector is a licensed plumber and hates the stuff. As a result he knows almost nothing about it. He actually told me once that he doesn't like it because after it freezes and thaws "a few times" the fittings start to work loose! (as opposed to copper or cpvc which just bursts?)
I have a 30 foot section in my own house that I ran through the attic (long story). Being the super contractor that I am I mistakenly thought I wouldn't have to insulate it. It froze solid at least 8 or 10 times before I crawled my butt through the attic to insulate the run. Not a single leak. That's why I'm sold on PEX.
Fire the plumber if he won't go back and get rid of all of those splices. There are two recent and very good articles about how to run PEX (layout) right here on FH's site. I like to "branch and T" my cold water and "manifold" my hot.
In case you cannot tell I use Zurn but it's primarily because of ease of installation...their product isn't any better. Their new crimping tool (which goes with the stainless crimp rings) allows you to crimp from one side of the pipe...you don't have to get all the way around it.
when shopping for my PEX stuff, my supplier showed me two different brass fittings from two different manufacturers. One was visibly thinner than the other.
Since you do not use that many fittings in a PEX system, don't go with the cheapy fittings and there will be fewer problems.
What we gain in grip, we lose in touch. R. Kipling
If this guy is doing sloppy work, REPLACE HIM NOW. NO IF'S AND'S OR BUT'S. This is your home and I'm sure your paying a fair wage. Don't even think about the down time waiting for a new plumber, in the big picture it will be alot less painful..........Can't stress this enough!!!!
If this guy is doing sloppy work, REPLACE HIM NOW. NO IF'S AND'S OR BUT'S. This is your home and I'm sure your paying a fair wage. Don't even think about the down time waiting for a new plumber, in the big picture it will be alot less painful..........Can't stress this enough!!!!
If this guy is doing sloppy work, REPLACE HIM NOW. NO IF'S AND'S OR BUT'S. This is your home and I'm sure your paying a fair wage. Don't even think about the down time waiting for a new plumber, in the big picture it will be alot less painful..........Can't stress this enough!!!!
Ya sure ya can't stress that some more?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Could have been worse, he didn't have the whole post in CAPS.
Well, he DID say he COULDN'T stress it enough, so I guess thats why it wasn't in caps.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
How good are Shark Bites?
Eric
I'd do a search. It has come up a lot recently with spirited opinions on both sides.
Sure I could.........
Don't know why that got posted 3 times, don't they edit this site?
don't they edit this site?
They censor the #### out of us, and they'll ship your ### to outer space, but "They" don't edit anything.
Joe H
PEX failures & lawsuits
See for more info on various PEX failure issues, lawsuits, etc:
http://failures.wikispaces.com/PEX+Plumbing+Failures
http://www.classaction.org/uponor-pex-problems
This issue has not gone away since the original post.
I have an out door wood pper and boiler for heating my house, i put it in 6 years ago. is use pex copper and brass fittings. the bonze or brass fittng are devolping small pin holes and leaking. look up dezinccification on the web. seem the zink is leaching out into the water andleaving the brass. i have replaced 3 fitting so far. use copper fitting i have no problem with them