Hi all,
I am new to this discussion room so please forgive my ignorance if this discussion has already occurred.
I am completely renovating a tri story duplex. That means new plumbing, heating, electric, the works.
My question comes in plumbing and PEX v copper.
I want to use PEX as it seems like less labor intensive as well as less material cost, at least in relation to copper.
Now I have gotten three plumbing quotes ( I know, I will get more but got three initially to see where a good starting point was).
I need new plumbing for: 2 kitchens with dishwashers, two laundry rooms, 2 full baths, 2-1/2 baths, and one corner shower in one of the full baths. Obviously the runs will have to be split and kept separate as it is a duplex.
So, the plumbers have all gone with copper quotes, although I asked for quote in PEX also. They say that the labor part will be more with pex than copper because of how many runs needed to be made with PEX. They also said that they will need to drill more holes (and more labor) as a result of the increased number of lines via pex as there is no main line for running pipe or wire or whatever you need from floor to floor.
I understand that copper will cost more materially, but they are implying that it will be more labor intensive to run so much pex and so the overall cost of the job will be more with pex.
Ok, so if I have had three plumbers tell me that copper is better than pex for my situation because of the increased labor involved with running all the pex, but from what I have read everybody seems to love pex for ease of installation and lower labor, then how am I to make an informed decision then?
I am getting a munchkin boiler that will: supply hot water heat as well as supply hot water for the kitchens, baths, etc.
Any suggestions or comments?
Thank you very much for your insight.
Replies
You picked the wrong 3 plumbers.
Try again.
You might try filling in your profile so we have some idea where you are, there might be BTer in your hood who can help you out.
Joe H
It seems that you've gotten the same answer from 3 seperate plumbers, who seen the job conditions.If they are reputable guys w/ experience & references, why not take their advice.Use they guy you feel is the most professional & you are most comfortable with.
If Pex is really what you want tell them so & accept the responsiblity & costs associated with your decision.
Professional trade people are in business to earn a living, which is tied to their reputation. So with that, most guys are going to advise you on the most appropriate materials for the job conditions, Because they have to stand behind their work.
The PEX is the more cost effective way to go. I have found that many plumbers do not want to use PEX as they less knowledgable about it and copper had been a norm for so long. Ideally you should get three manifolds, one in each unit. This way you are running one hot and one cold to each floor. Now you have a couple of choices, you can run the system conventiaonally; run braches off each line as they traditionally do with copper, or run individual lines to each hot and cold. The second would be my prefered install. We just recently completed a 2 storey house and the upgrade cost of running the individual runs with the manifold was around $800. I can't see how the copper prices are cheaper, while copper has come down it is just way more labour intensive. You have many joints and fittings whreas with the PEX you run one continuous line, leaving the connection points only at the manifold and the fixture. When they drill out, a few extra holes will not take too much extra time. Do a bit more research and find a more open minded plumber. Good Luck.
Sounds like he is in an area that has not embraced PEX. It is much quicker to install than copper tubing, especially in a remodel.
I appreciate your comments on Pex pipe. I'm planning building our retirement home in NE Mississippi and will be using Pex. I became sold on Pex several years ago when I lived in CO. A developer/builder who built over 400 homes a year would use nothing else. As a real estate agent who sold many of these houses, clients were well pleased and continue to be to this day.
I'm having trouble finding a plumber in NE MS that know anything about Pex or will install it. But, I'm not going to give up. I personally believe Pex has many advantages over copper and it's the pipe of the future.
Wishing you the best.
Dean
Same old fears I guess
But bear with me for two questions?
What is the projected life span?
I have heard one plumber say he has had it freeze and break. What is the consensus on it,s frost proof claims.
I'm sure this has come up before, sorry
Uponor does offer a 25yr warranty, copper institute upped the anti with a 50yr warranty.
Pex has been in use for about 40yrs---- mostly radiant heating applications.
Yes it can break if it freezes, but so does copper, pvc, cpvc, abs, iron, stainless, brass---- did I cover enough there----- & yes garden hose breaks too ;-)
"frost proof"???????? I'm not familiar with that claim.
You left out a couple including lead and hollowed out wooden pipe..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The people I talk to say Pex is frost resistant but it could break like anything else. Just less likely than the other stuff.
I like PEX. It has been used in Europe since long long time ago.
Like 40+ years I am told.
I have it in my 8 year old home and the only issue was the copper elbows on the 3/4" which I dont see anymore.
All couplings need to be brass and I think it is great.
I use copper too, but copper can corrode with acidic water and pinhole everywhere.
(thats an ugly one when it happens)
Hey! There's Jimmy Hoffa!Wait...never mind. It was just this thread that has been resurrected.Jase--Is there a better way?
I thought it was a new thread----- it didn't have that "thumbs up" symbol attatched to it------ I didn't know those expired.
Thanks for the feed back. I'm sure this has all been covered before and I sure appreciate you patience.
I only know of Pex through hear say, and Frost proof seams to be one of those frases that keeps coming around. And yes any thing will burst given enough pressure. The question is really long term.The fact that as you say it's been in use for forty years settles it.
Thanks again
I use both pex & copper.
Pex is the only "plastic" water supply I would allow in my own house.
Both have pluses & both have minuses.
In search of a new tagline, don't worry I'm sure I'll find one that will bother somebody. ;-þ
Thanks for your reply. I'm sure I'll have more questions to ask.
Dean
Note of caution on using PEX in the bathroom:
When plumbing from your mixing valve down to the tub spout, be aware that section is very sensitive to restrictions. Because PEX uses an internal piece at the fittings, the diameter is reduced. This will cause your shower to run while you fill your tub. If you have it, run this portion with 3/4" PEX or just use brass down to the stub out.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
where in NE mississippi? my plumber (memphis) will make the trip usually... we were the first 2 factory certified installers in memphis... him & I...
we love pex... cause copper doesn't come in red white & blue :)
p
We are building in Thanxton, MS. 20 miles east of Oxford and 10 miles west of Pontotoc. One mile off Hwy 6 in Deer Park on 30 acre lake. Hope to start in the Spring. We have our house for sale in Jonesboro, AR and hope to have it sold soon.
We'll build a ranch with a walk-out basement. 2 baths up and one down. 2072 main floor and same in basement which includes a storm room. We'll be using Geothermal for HVAC and hope to drop the tubbing in the lake.
Dean
cool deal... many that used a lake for their heat sink around here the last few years... never expected the lakes to dry up... if you are spring fed... that's be pretty cool...
let me know when you get close... he does stuff in oxford... pretty simple even if you wanted to DIY
p
cause copper doesn't come in red white & blue :)
Can't help ya with the white, but I can supply red & blue in copper, & even green & yellow too. ;-þ
In search of a new tagline, don't worry I'm sure I'll find one that will bother somebody. ;-þ
From reading this thread it occured to me to ask y'all a question.
It seems to me like copper is going to go the way of the dinosaur for water piping. From reading the responses I can't think of a good reason not to use it, where its legal. From talking to my own Build Dept. they've just adopted the plumbing codes that allow PEX. I wonder if other Building Dept. around the US have recently done the same.
If so it really seems like copper is going bye bye.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Maybe in residential water distribution, but air conditioning, medical gas, systems that have to have a fire rating & large commercial systems copper will still be prevalent.
In search of a new tagline, don't worry I'm sure I'll find one that will bother somebody. ;-þ
just curious... my wisbo book shows fire rated pex... even approved for fire protection systems...(sprinkler systems)... so maybe just a matter of time...
rubber hoses are used in refrigeration all the time... i can't see where it can't happen with pex or something close...
p
My Wirsbo¯ book is an older one, & I do know they have pex for fire protection systems, but just like cpvc (orange) sprinkler pipe cannot be used in an air plenum, I think pex will has a way to go before it's used in commercial highrises where the fire rating is an issue.
When cost comes into play the "better" product isn't always going to be the "best" product.
Copper down for the count?????------ It may happen, but not written in stone.
Future of PEX (polyethylene cross linked) is also dependent on the price of crude oil as for now the majority of ethylene is petroleum based.
In search of a new tagline, don't worry I'm sure I'll find one that will bother somebody. ;-þ
even approved for fire protection systems...(sprinkler systems
Can't imagine the installers will like that--FRPex means having to securely afix the heads to "something."
Right now, that's no problem the risers can hang right off the branches.
But, it would be a lot slicker for TI work, you'd just need a new lenght down to where ever the new ceiling occurs.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
In new houses in BC, copper is only found in the stub outs and from the hot water tank to the wall. You would have a hard time finding a house plumbed with copper pipe.
"It seems to me like copper is going to go the way of the dinosaur for water piping. From reading the responses I can't think of a good reason not to use it, where its legal. From talking to my own Build Dept. they've just adopted the plumbing codes that allow PEX. I wonder if other Building Dept. around the US have recently done the same. "Can't say if I know better or if what my metals supplier guy says is true. Last time I saw him (year ago) I was bugging him about the price of copper. He told me there was something like less than a 30 year supply (based on current consumption levels) of virgin copper material left in known cooper mine reserves.
According to New Scientist, we have 40 years at current rates of use. But use is gonna go up and up and up. The world demand for stuff under the earth is going to smack into geological reality, sooner or later.I'm not particularly worried. Reading New Scientist, there is so much wild-azz technology in the pipeline, I can hardly take it in. We're on the cusp of a technological revolution akin to the industrial revolution.Forty years from now, the world will resemble today as much, or less, as the world of 1850 resembled 1810. Trying to predict specifics about the future is futile.
Bill, I get your point but your analogy of the change between 1810 and 1850 is not your best work, LOL!!!!! What changed between 1810 and 1850? They wnet from horse to . . . ah . . . horses. And radio went from radio to . . . ah . . . they did not have the radio. They invented refrigeration . . . well ... ah. LOL! Just pulling your chain.
And before any one comes back and says they invented the steam engine, which I believe 1810 to 1850 is about right, or any other such invention, my main point is that technolgoy is or has been exponential. So the changes between 1810 and 1850 or even 1850 to 1890 or even 1890 to 1930 were nothing compared to 1950 to 1990 and certainly nothing compared to 1980 to 2005. And the chnages between 2010 and 2050 are likely to be five times teh changes between any period prior.
Just a human interest post and totally off topic.
As for Pex vs. copper. Like so many changes and evolutions, it takes time to prove itself and gain acceptance. It looks like the time has come.
Horses to horses? Not quite. Think horses to trains, huge urban migration, development of factories and an industrialized economy. Most of the world ended slavery because it was no longer economically competitive for most industries, the U.S. and Brazil being notable exceptions.In 1810, the world economy was absolutely not industrial. By the 1870s, Great Britain had a recession because their industrial techniques were _antiquated_ in comparison to America and new kid on the block Germany. In 1810, no one thought seriously about using electricity to power motors. The first smelting plant operated entirely by push button went online in 1911. The Bessemer process, however, had been around since 1855, which was a revolution in steel-making capabilities.Um, sorry for the derail!!
Ok, if you insist that there is a comparison to landing on the moon, radio, TV, Microwaves, the internet, cures for many cancers, etc. OK.
I've not yet used PEX, but probably will for an addition at son's house this summer/fall. This is a result of near unanimous opion in other posts that it is the way to go.
That said however, having had a sizeable investment in Witco stock (polybutylene) in the 1980s, for son's house, I will treat the pex like wiring - all the connections will be accessible in case there is a long term fitting/creep/cracking etc. problem not yet discovered.
Interesting that CPVC hasn't entered this discussion. In my humble opinion, no other material has proven itself to be a superior product for plumbing. CPVC is user-friendly and provides long-term reliability if properly installed and insulated.
I'm not a professional plumber, so maybe I'm mis-informed in some way. However, I personally plumbed my current home entirely with CPVC, and so far I haven't had a single leak in 21 years.
MichaelNew knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
I'm just finishing up on the pex with my loft project... 20 units in an old warehouse...
there are many but let me point to a few reasons to use pex... (i'm factory certified upnor/ wirsbo installer) and have only used the wirsbo system..
1.. comes in 20ft or up to 300ft rolls... less joints...
2... it bends twists turns all without fittings
3... fewer turns & fittings = less cost in materials and labor and better flow
4... comes in white, blue, red... we use white for main supply 1 1/2" & 1" and blue for cold feeds and red for hot.... equals alot less thinking and fewer screwups...
5... really no such thing as a bad joint... or a joint that wasn't sweated or missed... just very hard for it to happen
6... you can run it without manifolds just as you would a copper system
7... cost... we can do pex for about 25% of copper
8... they don't steal pex out of your walls like they do copper for scrap
9... it can freeze for a long time and not split
10... very forgiving in 100 different ways... it's just user friendly...
11... forget going to the gym if you've been expanding pex for fittings all day... you'll be able to arm wresel the rock hangers in no time...
12... I believe it will out last copper...
p
ponytl
I wasnt aware that there was more than one PEX brand. Of course I've heard of Wirsbo and thought that was all there was.
I was looking on Ebay for either a crimping tool or expander.
Haven't used the stuff before and wondered if you knew of a link that had some deteal for a newbie user.
Also what exactly is the differance in using the expander vs crimp method?
Seems the crimping tool is a whole lot cheaper than the expander for one.
I understand what crimping somthing together is but I'm unclear what the expander method is all about.
Thanks
andy
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy, expanding the pex, with a secondary ring of pex on the outside of the pipe is exclusive to Uponor, aka wirsbo.
It expands the pipe so it will slide over the barbs of the fittings, it relies on the pex's 100% memory to return to it's original shape & make a seal between the pipe & the fitting.“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few, his precepts! O! ‘tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments.” —Benjamin Franklin
thanx PB...guess I'll check with my supply house and see what they recommend and carry then.
Might boil down to what tool is less expensive if thats a factor or not.
Seems the crimping tool is around $100 on Ebay and the expander is more'n double that depending on the Ebay deal. Also wondering in the long run which is a better method considering cost and effectivness. I doubt I'll be doing a ton of this after this project so...
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
It does come down to availibilty, for a small or short term project.
If Uponor is easier to get, then I would buy the expander tool & sell it on Ebay after I'm done.
The tool holds its' value pretty good , since using it for its' designed purpose there really is no wear & tear on it.“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few, his precepts! O! ‘tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments.” —Benjamin Franklin
Andy,
I have owned the 1/2" crimper for a couple of years. I have thought about buying a 3/4" several times. I was walking through Ace Hardware the other day and noticed they rent either the 1/2 or 3/4 for 6$ a day. That's hard to beat. Most projects if you get all your holes drilled and parts ready are easily done in one day.
Curious ... for long runs wouldn't most of the heat in hot water need to overcome more the thermal capacity of the copper than the PEX? I know it is typical to either implement POS (point of service) or recirculators, but I know my home (shanty) is terrible getting hot water in quick time to the kitchen and master bath. I often wonder about how much more quickly would PVC or PEX (specifically) would perform, and also if POS tankless would be a better solution for convenience.
Thanks Vince...I'll check around to see about rentals. I'll even ask my supplier which is a very big supply house with several locations. Or...I'll check Ebay again. They sell like hot cakes there at around a hundred bucks for the crimper and quite a bit more for the expander type.
I think buying one will be better cause I can see it now...the minute I return it I'll need it again, but I really shouldn't if all goes well: )
First I spose' I'll need to see which brand they carry.
I'm almost up to the heat and domestic water suppy now.
Been working on my drains and vents yesterday.
thanks again
andy
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I am doing an addition now and the $$ I saved on copper more than paid for the expander. Now, I have a new tool (that I'm sure I'll use in the future) AND I saved a few buck. Nothin' sweeter!
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Have you worked this system in cold weather and is it any harder to do then?
All pex is equally stiff during cold weather.
Uponors expanding tool is tougher during cold weather than hot weather for obvious reasons, but for the avg DIY I don't think it makes that big of a difference.
If one was to be using the hand expander day in & day out--- well then that's just good exercise.“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few, his precepts! O! ‘tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments.” —Benjamin Franklin
there are several systems / manufactures or Pex... and you really can't mix fittings
they sell the crimp system at lowes... for 1/2" it runs about .25 ft plus fittings
the wirsbo/upnor... runs me about .16ft plus fittings in 1/2"...
the fittings are barbed and oversize to the tube... the expander goes inside your tubing expanding it (opening it up) and it puts ridges inside the tubing as it expands it.. you then have about 30 seconds to push the fitting into the tube where the tube then returns to it's former size lock'n itself to the fitting... you can still turn the fitting some if needed... but they sure aren't come'n apart...
i don't have a website link but i think if you search UPNOR that will get you there...
I'm sure the crimps are just as effective ... my understanding is they are a little trouble in tight spaces..... and there is more room for error in the crimps.. they loaned us a cordless electric expander for the 1 1/2" stuff... man.... thats tuff stuff...
one thing thats cool about it is we had to drill 2" holes for over 100ft in every joist... 3x there just would have been no way to feed copper thru those holes... you might have gotten cpvc in but.. hole alinement would have been more critical... in my opinion using flex tubing just opens up alot of options... which in turn also saves costs
p
checked Lowes on line for the store near me but they don't carry any such animal around here...oh well..
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
There is also the Zurn brand of Pex.There is also a new crimp ring from Zurn that uses "ears" like a CV boot clamp. One tool does all sizes of Pex, instead of one crimper for every size. I have not used this one ear system yet, but it looks simple.But as pointed out previously, use what is available in your area.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
Andy,
You might wanna check out this video about the basics. http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/hvt073.asp?
Note that the particular expander tool he uses takes several strokes to achieve full expansion, then rotate, repeat, etc. Then insert the fitting and pull up the brass ring. The Wirsbo/Upunor expander system uses a pex ring instead. Position that on the tubing and expand both ring & tubing together, insert fitting and you're done. No brass ring to pull up. The Wirsbo tool hand tool doesn't rachet either; one stroke of the handles. If you're going to do lots of this, you might want to pop for the battery operated expander, but they're big bucks new. Best deal I encountered was a special from our local supplier at $700 for that tool with 3/8, 1/2, 3/4 and 1" heads, two batts, charger and case. You can usually find a few used ones on E-Bay at any given moment as well as used Wirsbo arm-powered expanders. Make sure if you go the used route that the heads you need are included with the tool as you bid. New basic tool with case costs about $130 here and each head costs about $60.
Edited 1/24/2007 10:09 am ET by HootOwl
True that the Wirsbo/Uponor expander does not ratchet, but the pipe & ring will not slide all the way on to the tool the first time.
Generally 3 strokes on the hand expander.“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few, his precepts! O! ‘tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments.” —Benjamin Franklin
Yup, you be correct about that. ;-)
Thanks Hoot...I JUST got off the phone w/my suppy house (Blackman Plumbing) who's one of th ebiggest in NY/LI. They sell Slant/Fin pex which I never even knew sold pex but it does make sense, right? Anyway...it comes to about.63 a foot ($157 for a 250' roll) for the 3/4"
for heat and .46 a foot ($115 for a 250 roll) for the donestic water.
Thats a lot more than ponytl said he pays but it is NY I spose' and I checked around and thats the cheapest by far. Said he'd sell me a crimper for $90 so I spose' thats the route I'll be going.Almost done with my waste lines and venting in the bathroom...praying I did it right...lol...now all I have to do is get it down a fight of stairs and fifty feet accr4oss the basement floor joists before I have to worry how to connect it down there...lol...gulp...might need a pump..ugh.As Gilda Radner said right before she died, "Its Always Something" : )
Be WELL
andy... oh yeh...thanx for the video link...I'll check it out tonight so I can see what else I don't know and have to worry about...lol.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
there are quite a few supply companies that sell pex on ebay...
i don't know off hand what i pay for 3/4 but i know i pay about 16cents a foot for 1/2" wirsbo... doesn't matter if it's rolls or 20ft pc...
good luck... btw my supply house has loaner tools...
p
ponytl...turns out there IS a Lowes about 40 min from me that has PEX after a bit of investigating but they're a bit more expensive than my local supply house by pennies. Supply house is only five min away so...and yeh, I'll check to see if they have loaners...thanks
andy
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
checked my local lowes today... they sell ZURN.... .25ft 1/2" .45ft 3/4
weird deal is... it's not approved here (the zurn) only the wirsbo xp series is approved here.... but then i guess they sell alot of stuff thats not approved
good luck
p
>>>>checked my local lowes today... they sell ZURN.... .25ft 1/2" .45ft 3/4<<<<< Yep...Zorn here too at about 45 cents. Pretty much the same as my plumbing supply house up the road for Slant/Fin.
63 cents for the heating PEX at the supply house.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I started reworking the plumbing on my place and bought Wirsbo Pex yesterday for 3/4" I paid $1.00 a ft, and 1/2" was 60 cents a ft.
I got cleaned out comparing to the prices you guys are paying.
I got most of it roughed in after a few hours, it goes fast.
My supply house I got it from told my to get it all roughed in then they will let me borrow the crimpers when I am ready.
Just a comment on CPVC...it is nice and quick and doesn't take a great deal of time to teach someone how to run it. However, if you are planning on using a tankless water heater, CPVC is not the way to go for the hot water lines. It is rated a little below the maximum temperature of a tankless water heater. Down here is Houston CPVC and a tankless water heater aren't allowed by code.john
That's interesting.
I'm in no way a fan of cpvc like flowguard gold, its' rated for 180 degrees at 100psi.
I don't know of any domestic hot water system that is aloud to be over 120 degrees, tankless or tanked.
Or is it because the T & P valves are commonly rated for 150psi & 210 degrees?“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few, his precepts! O! ‘tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments.” —Benjamin Franklin
"However, if you are planning on using a tankless water heater, CPVC is not the way to go for the hot water lines. It is rated a little below the maximum temperature of a tankless water heater. Down here is Houston CPVC and a tankless water heater aren't allowed by code."
I've never known CPVC to be a poor choice for hot water applications, if it's installed correctly. I've had it attached to my electric tank-type water heater for 21 years now and it's still going strong. Haven't read anything that indicates tankless units shouldn't be used with CPVC.
Actually, I did have one problem with my water heater. Several months ago, I had to replace the piece of pipe that connects directly to the heater. It developed a pinhole leak. That part of the plumbing was copper.
I'll admit that PEX is a real asset when space is tight. But other than that, it's just a glorified garden hose..in my humble opinion. Don't want the copper (expensive, vulnerable to minerals, not user-freindly) and don't want the PEX (often requires special tools, can deteriorate just by not being stored properly).
CPVC for me please (reasonably priced, user-friendly, readily available, no special tools required, long history of reliability). Hard to argue with success.
MichaelNew knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
"Interesting that CPVC hasn't entered this discussion. In my humble opinion, no other material has proven itself to be a superior product for plumbing."
CPVC is often the material of choice for manufactured housing - it's cheap and quick to install.
However, because of its large coefficient of expansion, joints can fail especially from freezing.
Additionally, while it's approved by code for domestic water supply, there is a good amount of evidence of its toxicity in larger doses - including neurological damage and cancer. The inside surface also supports bacterial growth, including legionnaire's disease. Some uses complain of a "plastic" taste to their water.
CPVC also puts dioxins into the environment, both in its manufacture and its disposal.
I'm puzzled by the responses you got from your plumbers. It sounds to me like they just don't want to do PEX because "we've always used copper." PEX does not have to be installed with a home run for every line. There are lots of options, including all home runs, distributed manifolds (manifolds in several locations in the house to eliminate multiple full-length lines) and traditional ("just like copper") installation. The only reason that PEX is installed as an all-home-run system is that, because of reduced cost and labor, you CAN install it this way. Nothing says you have to. It is just nicer, IMHO, when it's done this way. I first used PEX for an addition recently. It is WAY less labor and WAY less cost (including the investment in the tools). If I had my druthers, I'd throw the torch away.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I'm not a plumber or a professional, however I just ran PEX in my new house using home runs and a motion activated recirculator on the far hots. It may be over kill, but I used manifolds with valves on the output so I can turn off one specific fixture with out affecting the other supplies.
By my self I ran the pipe, connected to stub outs, and pressure checked in a day. Beyond the normal stuff, the house has 2 baths, 2 laundry's, mud room with .5 bath.
I used the crimp ring type, and didn't have a single leak when pressure checked. I've worked with copper before, and I like to sweat fittings etc...but this was dream to work with. I find it hard to believe that it would take longer with copper. Some of the PEX fittings get expensive, but that should be offset by the lack of fittings and speed to install.
Good luck,
Rip
I work with two plumbers like that. I think one of them still smokes Lucky Strike Straights.
They wouldn't use pex for anything...thinking it is just another plastic pipe product.
It's time to look into the 21st century. There is absolutely no reason why you can't run pex cheaper than copper. If you want to lay it out exactly like you would with a copper system, it's easy to do and won't cost anywhere near as much.
Pex has so many advantages over copper that I wouldn't even think of building a new home again using copper throughout the house.
Are the walls open?
Easier to push copper up a studbay than pex.
Adventures in Home Building
An online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
I didn't read thru all of the posts but...
I went with PEX as the job was being stocked w/ copper. Everything off a factory built manifold that was valved and home run on every inch. The owners top dog of the company talked me into it. The owner himself backed it up later that day.
No up/down charge and it was the best thing I did so far. Long term who knows. Short term, the quality was first class and done faster. PEX was more $$ per foot (I was told) but a faster install. Should it fail for some crazy reason I have better than 2000 feet buried in gypcrete. My problems on the DW side are nothing.
End result was one happy homeowner.
MY plumbers used pex on my last big job. I wasn't convinced at first but I am now 100% in favor of pex. Labor is less. Material is less. it can be fished 3 floors if some one forgets a line. We have used 3/8 through 1" they have all the fittings for copper to pex. I even went out and bought my own expanding tool if we cut a line with misssplaced saw or drill. The only problem is the electrical inspector wants us to bond all the plumbing fixtures. That adds a small cost but pixxxes off my electrition. I am generally old school about most things but I have been sold
Good luck wiyth your plumbers
I got a crimping tool when they had a 100 dollar rebate on it. Who ever said it is an arm strenghener is right.... also it can be a tough crimp in tight spaces..... but, it seems to be great stuff..... whether or not it's carcenogenic is another question..... but it sure is easy to use..... I always have used fostapex pine, just cause I like the rigidity but I've never done a whole house and fostapex costs more..... good stuff.
Thank you everyone for your thoughtful and insightful responses.
As you can see by the responses, I was unsure why the plumbers wanted copper but that most people that have had the work done, do prefer PEX.
Now, it is up to me to find a plumber that will put the PEX in!!
Thank you again for everything, it has helped tremendously. If I can offer anything in the future, I will try.
For the last 8 years or so, a good 90% of the residential plumbing in British Columbia has been done with pex using crimp rings. I would think that if there were significant problems with pex, they would have surfaced given the widespread use and time it has been in service. Good luck finding a plumber.
Just because I like stirring up the pot...my in-laws had a house built about 7-8 years ago on Vancouver island, nice place, beach front very well built. The supply is all pex. About six months ago, one of the lines developed a serious leak. The builder (a friend of theirs) had his plumber check it out. Turns out the pipe had a bunch of micro cracks on one side of it. When they checked out the rest of the house, they discovered that about half of the pex had to be replaced. Their best guesses are that either it was a bad batch of pex, or it got left out in the sun (hence the cracks on one side of the pipe). I like to think that this was a growing-pain kind of problem, that wouldn't happen today. I'd still use pex, since as fingersandtoes points out, you don't hear many (any) horror stories...
That's quite disturbing to find out about. Hopefully as you say it was a growing-pains kind of situation. If it all goes we are in a lot of trouble.
PEX has been used in Europe for 40+ years, so the "growing pains" have been pretty much worked through I think.
I am still hesitant. I used to work for a large water district. In the sixties, poly was introduced as an alternative to copper service laterals. All the same arguments you hear for pex: lower materials costs; lower labor costs, can never corrode.
Nationwide, hundreds of thousands, more probably millions of services get put in. Early eighties they started having problems with it bursting along the length as it developed fatigue fractures from the pressure surge when people turned things off in the house.
The district I worked for spent about between ten and twenty million a year for ten years, opening up streets, replacing the poly with copper, and repaving streets.
I know all the arguments for pex. They are the same ones used to sell poly. They say they have solved all of the problems poly had by cross linking the molecules by stitching it with laser beams. Maybe they have. We will know for sure in another ten years or so.
I still don't trust it enough to put it in a wall.
I need to replace the steel line from the house to the meter next spring. My plan is to use 1-1/4 pex. If it fails, I can fish a copper line back through it with out having to rip up my driveway again.
Like moltenmetal said, PEX has been used in Europe for over 40 years. It's already surpassed poly in demonstrating its longevity. Comparing them is apples and oranges.
Call the local supply houses, and findout who is, and has been, buying pex.
That should get you a short list fairly quickly.
It need not be an either/or.
You could run 1" copper from the basement to the 2nd floor, then step down to 3/4 to the 3rd floor.
On each floor, a nice copper manifold onto which individual 1/2" Pex runs can be fastened.
Edited 1/24/2007 12:52 am ET by Pierre1
I just did the exact project you are discussing (renovation of 2 family home). We used two different plumbers because the project was done in stages. The 1st floor was done with copper, because there was less plumbing work that had to be done. The 2nd floor was done with PEX, as we had a lot more plumbing work to do (new bathroom, laundry room).
In neither case did I specify copper vs. PEX, they just went with the least costly option. I assume that in the first case, fitting a few new copper fittings to existing copper work was the way to go. In the second case, where we had to run whole new lines, I'm sure the PEX was far superior to copper in terms of cost and labor.
Your post brought alot of comments which I wasd glad to see. I too am interested in the Pex type product for its ease of running lines. My area(Long Island & New Jersey) is still copper oriented and I haven't seen any Pex used here. The special tooling seems to be a big issue as well as the learning curve. The current price of copper serves to help us learn faster. I want to mention an article in the current issue of Fine Home building on page 42, titled "Push-fit Plumbing". Two days after reading the article I was in a plumbing supply in New Brunswick, NJ, and there on the counter was a display of this connector using the same tee fitting shown in the article. One side used copper, the second side used CPVC, and the third side used PEX. No special tools needed. Just push the pipe into the fitting and you're through. Leakproof, but with the ability to rotate the tubing and also the ability to take it apart easily. I tried it and it was super easy. Probably too expensive to use for a whole house, but well worth the price for smaller jobs, especially using PEX and saving the cost of copper. I'm currently building a laundry closet off the kitchen which is taking space out of the garage. I've already built the room and have 1/2" copper into the house, but now I have to run hot & cold lines about 25' to connect. Continuing copper will be a pain, but going to PEX using these connectors will be easy and less expensive. I'm sure many of you reading about PEX will find this connector interesting.
We opened up a wall on Friday and created a pinhole leak on a copper pipe where the pipe had been up against a jagged hole in the concrete retaining wall behind the Sheetrock. Of course it's a Friday afternoon and the thought of sweating in a repair on corroded copper pipe at quitting time Friday vs leaving a pinhole leak with a pan under it all weekend vs using one of those expensive shark tooth fittings to fix the leak was a no-brainer. I wouldn't use them except as a repair or to transition between old copper and pex but they sure can be a lifesaver. By the way the "expensive tools" for pex are $125 or so each for a 1/2' and 3/4" crimper and $35 for a crimp ring remover and $25 for a tubing cutter. Not such a brutal investment that it wouldn't pay for itself on the first job. And lots of people never splurge on the crimp ring remover. ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
They are called Sharbite connectors.There is a current thread posted about them..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
After I finished posting my comments on the Fine Homebuilding article I continued down the list of items and saw the Sharkbite discussion. Made me feel kind of stupid after reading it. I guess the Sharkbite has been around for quite some time, but it was new to me.
Anyway, I bought 100' of Pex and the sharkbite fittings to connect my new laundry room. I now find that both HD and Lowes carry Pex and Lowes has a plastic push fitting that is half the cost of the Sharkbite. Not sure, but I think it might be made by Pex. I'll have to check it out.
Not sure, but I think it might be made by Pex.
Pex is a material (polyethylene cross linked) not a brand.
Just thought you should know.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
Yeah, I mail-ordered a few Sharkbite connectors just to have on hand, then the day after I got them saw that HD had just put in a full selection. It'll be interesting to see how they hold up in the hands of DIYers who wouldn't touch a soldering torch.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
They're awesome, but expensive. Looked in HD, but couldn't find them. Checked Lowes. They carry the Pex tubing and the Watt line of series 35 plastic connectors which are about half the price of the Sharkbite. Watt also makes the brass like Sharkbite, but Lowes doesn't carry them.
Checked online at Watts and find the plastic series 35 is approved for potable water.
10 yers ago i was looking through new houses in sw Florida and saw they were using color coded pex and running all lines from a central panel that was about the same size as a electrical panel and had a vaalve for each run
it looke like a ideal set up however i havent seen it up here in canuckistan yet
In new home construction, Pex requires that you make home runs for each fixture, both hot and cold, resulting in about a mile of tubing. In addition think of all the holes to be drilled, manifold, etc. Anyone know why you can't run a 3/4" main line to each area and then branch off with 1/2" to each fixture as is traditionally done with copper? Does it have to do with Pex being flexible and not rigid?
I work strictly in remodeling and almost never use rigid copper pipe. I mostly use flexible copper pipe, but am now switching over to Pex because of the cost savings and ease of use. I view joints as huge time wasters, and also a potential for future leaks.
Someone in a previous post mentioned plastic push-on fittings being less expensive than the Copper Sharkbite ones. I will seek those out.
I wished FHB focused more on publishing what is faster, better, and less expensive. We are locked in a relentless arms race where every minute, and every penny counts.
Around here, new homes usually have Wirsbo, but run in the normal way, with a trunk and branches.
In new home construction, Pex requires that you make home runs for each fixture, both hot and cold, resulting in about a mile of tubing
There is no requirement to do it that way, somebody is blowing smoke at you.
Joe H
I remember FHB had an article about a pex installation a while back, and I think the set-up was like that. The manifold was 16 inches long and it looked like a rainbow/octopus with multiple runs of pex coming out of it.
That is definitely one way of doing it. I replaced all the galvanized plumbing in my last house with PEX (not Wirsbo). I soldered up my own manifold. I wasn't confident in my soldering skills, and figured that I wanted all my soldered joints in one place where I could see them.
You can use a manifold system with pex but no one around here does. We use it exactly like copper.
While PEX doesn't require exclusively home runs, they are fast and cheap enough that you can use them where they make sense. I like a hybrid approach. I like to set up a centrally-located manifold to act as main shutoffs to rooms ("second floor bath", "kitchen", "laundry", etc.), and then plumb the rooms traditionally, with stops at each fixture, like you suggest.
I like the Wirsbo/Uponor system. It's quick and, IMHO, less likely to develop leak as a result of errors that can occur due to faulty crimping which mandates some pretty narrow tolerances. It's also easier to make a joint in tight quarters, since you don't have to fit the tool into the tight location.
But you still need to go with a system that's available to you locally. Wirsbo/Uponor can be tough to find in some localities.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
What is the benefit to having only home runs with a manifold system? I can see how at times it could be convenient to have all shut-off valves in one central location. Also, as Biff said, you can eliminate joints in the piping in concealed locations.Still, you end up using a lot more material (I would think) and to what real benefit? One downside I can see is if I'm running the hot water in my bathroom sink for a shave prior to showering, the water in the shower line would still be cold. With a conventional system, your shower line water is going be mostly warm the second you turn the water on.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
What is the benefit to having only home runs with a manifold system?
Well, it's similar to the benefit in not running an electrical system the way we do plumbing.
Mostly, the best benefit is in not needing odd connections, like a 1" to 1/2" T. Also, not needing a big "trunk" line to branch off of.
I've not had a chance to try, but a person who wanted to, could probably set up a recirculating HW system a tad easier with pex than without, since you could have a return loop manifold back to the intake side of the heating system either by gravity or by pump.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
We have mostly pex and a little copper in our home in the White Mountains of New Hampshire. All the radiant floor heating is onyx. The furnace shut off and the indoor temp went to 15 deg. When the plumber slowly thawed the house, he had a few copper breaks, the kitchen faucets froze, the valve for the ice maker in the fridge froze, and the valves for the showers froze [Symmons with the temperature indicator..the temperature indicator part had to be replaced] (all of those had to be replaced). The pex and onyx survived. Apparently it can swell but not break.
Johnny