So, I have a smallish job that’s out on proposal. They’ve indicated they’d like me to do the work. The prospects have asked for references which is no problem. But… they are asking for: references for whom I have done similar work that will let them come look at the job I did. If this were a big, high ticket job I’d be less twitchy about it, but it is a small bathroom facelift (not even a full remodel). I’m reluctant to start asking past clients if someone can come look at their homes. Plus, it makes me suspicious that this couple may become a disproportionate PIA. Am I being too sensitive?
PaulB
Replies
Sounds to me like they're being unreasonable. I'd stop at providing references.
Give them the referencs and tell them that you don't want to inconvience the previous clients but if they (the prior clients) want to invite the prospects over after being contacted then fine.I wouldn't worry too much yet about PIA; Books and mag articles on remodeling are always touting this kind of thing.
rusti
"Books and mag articles on remodeling are always touting this kind of thing"Exactly what I was thinking. People aren't necessarily trying to be a PITA, they just think they are following protocall. There are all these advise articles for homeowners these days that are pushing people to get references and view projects and sometimes even the most well intentioned prospective clients can come across as a pain in the arse. I'd say give them the benefit of the doubt....at least for know.
A bit off the subject, but . . . I know a woman who runs a small bakery operation out of her basement. She is top-notch especially with fancy cakes, pastries, etc.
Anyway, she told me that all the bridal magazines are telling brides-to-be that they must schedule a "tasting" with whomever they are thinking of making their wedding cake. Talk about a PIA. That's analogous to asking the tile guy to "do a little section of the floor to see how we like it."
Be glad you're not a baker.
I'd give them whatever references you would normally give, and let the customer ask the reference if they can come take a look. (Maybe give the references a warning first). That way this potential new client gets any bad rap, you get an additional good rap for the heads-up to the reference, and the reference can decide for themselves whether they want to open their house to the potential client…
In the PIA's defense, even if you're not doing a complete remodel, I'd want to know you were going to do work I would be satisfied with, and that might include seeing it for myself. After all, how else would I know you didn't pay the references to speak well of you, or maybe that the references were not particularly discriminating about the quality of work?
I'm in a similar situation, fairly small job, didn't like him, didn't like his dogs, didn't like his house, didn't like anything about the job or the people. I quoted high and left it at that.
Next thing, I get a call from him, he and his wife would like to visit one of my previous jobs, ideally one I did maybe two years ago (presumably to see how well it has held up).
I thought about it for a day or two, then contacted him to say that I'd had a look through my records and no one suitable had actually offered to have my potential customers visit, so I couldn't help him.
Haven't heard back from him yet, so here's hoping
John
Best answer I can give you is would you want a stranger calling you and asking to be invited into your home?
I wouldn't. Past customers likely wouldn't either. You can likely explain it to your prospect that way.
Most people for whom you've done a good job likely don't mind at all talking you up to whomever wants to ask. But a visit to their home? I don't think so.
Do unto others . . . .
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
You make a good case for having nice clear photos of your work to show prospective clients. Also include progress photos so they can see the stuff that eventually gets hidden.
Such a great illustration of why word of mouth is best. When they've already seen your work at their friend's house, that part is already taken care of and you're practically already hired.
(phone rings)
Caller: "Hi, we live next door to the Joneses and we were over last weekend having dinner and saw the kitchen you did there, and we want to talk to you about ours."
Me: "Yeah, baby!"
Seriously, I would only arrange a visit to a completed job for someone that I considered practically 100%. It takes time and effort to arrange those things, and it burns out your references. If you do show someone thru, send your client a nice gift later.
Probably goes without saying, but be sure to ask your references first if you can give out their names wether or not you comply with the client's request for on-site visits.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
It's inappropriate to impose on a past customer to satisfy the whim of a potential customer. Photo's should suffice.
Like you said, they may become a real PIA customer. If I have a "feeling" about a potential PIA, I'll attempt to bail out. Life is too short, lets have some fun out there!
Grunge on. http://grungefm.com
Edited 5/3/2006 9:17 pm ET by RRooster
Just this past week, the local paper had a big spread about how many people are getting screwed by contractors these days. Some of the war stories were from people who were just bonehead stupid. But there was also one where the clients did all the "right" things -- references, BBB, checked with state license board, even checked the GC's list of subs, etc. And still, they were in the hole for better than 100m. So even though you are honorable and do good work, there are plenty of folks out there who are charlatans. I think a lot of clients who have not had extensive experience with contractors see a home improvement project as a voyage through shark infested waters.And who can blame them?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikkiwood
And still, they were in the hole for better than 100m.
Is that 100 million! Thats some serious money there, I dont care who you are
Doug
Bein' loose with my numbers -- I think it was $147,000.The best one was this old lady, tiny house, renovation encompassed 644 SF, and the guy fleeced her for $750,000. Other stats I remember: there are 33,000 contractors in MN (unclear if this was licensed, or their estimate on everyone doing business as a "contractor"); and so far this year, the state board had received 631 formal complaints, and the season is just getting started.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I think most of the time people who ask for references only want to know if you are willing to provide them with one. after that they have no intentions of making a phone call
if they really insist on paying a visit go with them at a time that is convienient for the past client
If you get the feeling these people are going to be a PITA then cut 'em loose now. better that than wishing you had after you did the work
as an aside ...
in my pic portfolio ... I have the job name, area, date, and telephone number.
mostly for my information.
But ... a coupla times it has come up when people say they want a reference ...
I just pull the book out and open to a suitable job. I know who and who's number I can/can't give out ... and just note it down for them right at the presentation.
That really seems to impress people. I've even made the initial phone call sittintg right there. If it's a customer I got along with especially well ... I'll just think I haven't talked to them for a while so let's call and see how they're doing.
Sometimes I'll hand the phone over and give the potentials some space to ask Q's.
But ... I think one of the reasons I pretty much never get asked for referals is the extensive pic book and the fact the names/numbers are there for everyone to see.
if U do find yourself gettingasked for referals each and every time ... that means its time to strengthen the delivery of the presentation.
and the others are right ... everyone's told 100 time to get 3 prices and go look at previous jobs in person. Sounds good on paper ... not so good in the real world.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Sometimes I wonder how valid references are anyway. Who knows weather or not your're getting references from the venders mother or brother or friends?
If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
I'm not a remodeler and not really a big time remodeling customer, so take this for what it's worth. I have had situations in the past where someone (a neighbor or whoever) said "yea, I had Joe Blow come over and redo the tile in our bathroom" - or similar. I ask if they are a satisfied customer, and they say everything is cool. Then I go over to look at the job and it is marginal at best. So, from a customer's standpoint, verbal references are not always adequate since different people have different standards of quality.
I just had another thought. Tell them "Hey! Good idea! But only if you'll also be willing to let me visit YOUR new bathroom with a bunch of strangers/prospective clients in tow a couple of times a week." See if looking at it from your previous customers' point of view makes them re-think their position.
The more I think about it, the less I can see myself asking for a tour of somebody's bathroom. Seems pretty wierd.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
OK... I just can't get comfortable with the idea of these people asking to go visit strangers. I'm inclined to send the following letter to them (they asked for my references in writing).
Whatcha think?
Dear X and Y,
<!----><!----> <!---->
Thank you for your recent phone call indicating your interest in our firm, and asking for references from past clients with whom you can visit.
<!----> <!---->
In the interest of candor, I have thought long and hard about your request and am not comfortable with the prospect of imposing on people who already have been kind enough to express a willingness to be used as references. I feel it may well place them in the awkward position of either feeling obliged to have strangers examine their home, or feeling that they risk appearing uncooperative. It is to my mind equivalent to my asking to examine your financial statement prior to beginning your project, something that may have some practical rationale but simply isn’t appropriate.
<!----> <!---->
It is my feeling that perhaps we have differing views of the relationship between contractor and client, and that being the case another contractor is likely a better fit for your project.
<!----> <!---->
I thank you for your time in meeting with me, and wish you all success in your project.
<!----> <!---->
Sincerely,
<!----> <!---->
(BTW... as to some of the previous comments about portfolios, etc. I do have a reasonably nice (I think) website which these folks visited, as well as a professional portfolio and a nice oversized color "flyer" that they apparently saw as well. So I agree entirely about the value of those things)
Edited 5/4/2006 8:22 am ET by PaulBinCT
Edited 5/8/2006 5:02 pm ET by PaulBinCT
Paul, I know some disagree with me on not brushing them off yet, but your original post says they asked to see some of your work (not demanded).
I've already said I wouldn't want to be asked to let strangers in my house, so I wouldn't put a customer in that position for a prospect.
But, I don't know if I'd brush the prospect off for just asking (like somebody said, people see this kind of advice in magazines and think it's routine so they ask). Any chance you could just give them a call and talk it through, or is the job sufficiently small that it ain't worth all this thought and effort. ;-)
I'd be inclined to call the prospect and explain my reasoning and if I didn't get a response I thought was appropriate to the discussion (either content or tone), then I'd brush them off right on the phone. Also would save the time of dealing with paper correspondence if things just weren't going to work.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Edited 5/4/2006 9:23 am ET by philarenewal
Maybe I am being too uptight about it... I think I'll just tell them that I need to ask the references for their permission to be solicited for a walkthrough. If they just want to make some phone calls that's a different story. I just don't want to be putting people on the spot, especially for a relatively small job.
Paul,I like the first couple sentences but I too would not brush them off unless you really want a reason to not do the job.Their requests are probably out of line, but I have to deal with customers who have gotten advice from friends, co-workers, and industry "professionals" all the time. I'm sure you have the same challenges. Perhaps they read somewhere that you should visit jobs to check up on the work of a contractor. Maybe they heard someone talking about finding a contractor for a whole-house remodel and they're applying the advice to their small project.I would bet that (if they would be a good customer) your letter expressing your concern for the privacy and convenience of your past clients will be appreciated.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
No way, no how. This is a problem waiting to happen. References and pics are it. A potential customer visiting a past client- imagine the discussion....Oh, how much was your bathroom" ? OH! well he is quoting $XXXX for mine and it is not nearly as big as bad as what ever... He did what... oh that is unforgivable....
No, an unaccompanied customer to a job is a recipe for ruin; and maybe to both clients. The one that is a completed project could think that they paid too much and the one that is a potential can get all sorts of crack pot advice or comments from the other.
Just one contractors comments to another...or one brother to the other.
CTB
Pilgrim Brothers Construction
Holy smokes...
Hey guys, this is my "little" brother. (One of three).
Oh yeah... pick up the phone and return your calls ;)
Edited 5/8/2006 8:10 am ET by PaulBinCT
if you need the work, do it.
if not, don't.after a while you can be in the pleasant position of only working by
"word of mouth"that's where i have been for years.
way more work than i can ever do
Though my work is mostly residential, my reference list includes a few commercial jobs (hotel lobby, sandwich shop, kitchen showroom). Those are public spaces that potential customers can visit without bothering someone, in the evening, at home. Those can be good places to meet too. The businesses like it as it brings potential customers into their stores.
I update my reference list often, and if I have a large job I'll be on for a while, it is at the top of the list so people can see how work is conducted (how clean & organized the site is, etc.). I get the OK ahead of time from the owners and have people call on the cell phone & drop in if it is a good time.
Before you say, "that is crazy!" I've only had a couple of people actually stop by since I first offered that level of transparency 3 years ago. So it is not a common interuption, but making the offer helps increase the comfort level of many customers.
People like it that my current customer is happy, that my last customer is happy...not just a few customers are OK with work from a year or two ago.
My list of references has current, recent and notable work. In my experience, only 1 in 10 customers provided with references ever call them. Most are satisfied that I have a current list to hand them the moment they ask. I have a few customers that I know love having people over, but seldom is that necessary.
I get plenty of word of mouth and repeat customers who don't need references, but I've landed some great customers by making it easy for people to check on my work, check with my customers, and even visit a job in progress.
I'm just trying to step up my game.
Edit to add: I do the portfolio and a laptop slide show too.
Edited 5/8/2006 5:11 pm ET by basswood