I have two Carrier furnaces in my house, both with pilot type ignition. After nearly wrecking my back the other day relighting one of the pilot lights, I got the idea of installing electronic ignition.
Can that be done? Where would I get the electronic ignitions?
ps – I don’t post over here much. Lurk mostly over in finewoodworking.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
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Replies
Can it be done? Maybe/probably……but there's no guarantee that you have adequate access to the space in which the business end of this would reside to easily install it….without dismantling the furnace to some degree. (Sure sounds from your description like the current burners aren't so conveniently located or easily accessed.)
And……….changing out the current ignition system (standing pilot with thermo-couple,I presume ) for a different ignition system would also require changing out the main gas valve for a different one containing the necessary components of that particular system. These valves aren’t cheap, either. That might also (probably would) require changing out some of the gas supply pipes (different lengths and approach to valve) to mate up with the new valve.
All in all, this could get both labor intensive and expensive. I doubt it's worth the effort myself.
Without seeing the particular situation, I'm having a hard time envisioning why the lighting of this pilot would strain the back. A long thin stick or match is frequently in order, though. Then again, some of these appliances are obviously designed by folks who didn't and won't ever have to work on them. Some of the newer pulse furnaces are a good example of this as they use a spark plug, located where it can't be easily accessed to change it out without cutting a hole in the side of the furnace…………..which is what the manufacturer's tech guys tell you to do when you encounter the need. Then you make up a sheet-metal patch to go over the new access hole and screw it in place. This approach might also serve you in getting easier access to your pilot location. Can't say for sure from here.
Edited 12/17/2005 11:14 am ET by goldhiller
Edited 12/17/2005 11:15 am ET by goldhiller
It seems like even if it could be connected to function without defeating any of the safety devices in the gas train it would be a lot of work for nothing. Pilot lights only need to be lit once when the furnace is installed and stay running for 10 or 20 years till the thermocouple or something else breaks. Then you repair it and run another 10 or 20 years. It would take more time to install an igniter than all the time spent lighting the pilot in the life of the furnace.
I always light the pilot lights in my furnace and HW heater with a propane torch.
I agree that the pilot light should stay on until something like the thermocouple breaks. Last summer I had to replace the gas control valve on my 35 year old boiler and just yesterday the pilot went out for the first time for no obvious reason. Easy to light and all but this is an apartment house. What if this happens while I'm away. Will the tenants have to call a service man to light the pilot? Does anyone have any idea what could be causing this. You could help out both Mike (PlaneWood) and me (Link)
standing pilots on many gas appliances are adjustable, on the main gas valve will be a cover that can be pried off with a screwdriver, and inside will be a set screw that can be turned in or out to make flame larger or smaller,
but more importantly you need to make sure the pilot orofice in the pilot burner assembly itself is clean. the pilot burner assembly is the thing that holds pilot light and the thermocouple, or pilot generator if you have a millivolt system (floor furnaces, wall heaters, and gravity furnaces).
you can usually remove the entire assembly by disconnecting the pilot gas tubing, wires, and thermocouple from the main valve and removing the screw/s that hold the pilot assembly in the furnace/appliance.
then you carefully take apart pilot burner (tubing connection at burner) and clean orofice by running a small wire (single strand of wire from old extension cord etc.) through the hole in the orofice. then just carefully re-assemble and test all connections for leaks with soap and water solution (soap bubles quickly show small gas leaks)
one final note, make sure thermocouple is TIGHT in main gas valve. a thermocouple makes a minute amount of electricity, usually less than 20 millivolts, and it is very important that the connection be clean and tight or the gas valve to sense this electricity indicating a burning pilot light. if the valve does not sense this electricity it will shut off the gas to the pilot burner unless you have an older less than 100% safety (still found on some old floor furnaces etc)
Our house was built 12 yrs ago, and it came with a ignition pilot light. Works great. I don't know if you can make the change, but I think the place to start would be the mfgr website. See if you can find a phone number or email for tech support, and tell them the model and serial number of the futnace. They should be able to tell you if a retro-fit kit is available.
For those of you who have poo-pooed the idea ... think about a sudden cold spell and you're out of town, the wife or kiddies need to get some heat. Which is easier and safer?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
No poo-pooing on my part, I just don't think it's worth the effort or expense.
My experiences tell me that the standing pilot light ignition system is about as trouble-free as they come. Sure the thermo-couple can and will fail eventually, but the newer pilot-less ignition systems (direct HSI ignition) aren't fail-safe or trouble-free, either. IME, they fail from fatigued parts more frequently than the simple SP system does.
And the flame rod sensor type ignitions that must first ignite a standing pilot with an little HSI, which then must prove itself to the gas valve are even more prone to trouble because there's more pieces and parts and sequential events to go awry.
And then there's the pulse systems.
Each type of system has its potential advantages and disadvantages......but for my money, I still think the SP is as good as any and is usually faster and easier to fix. For instance, if the pilot is lost because of some weird downdraft or other reason, it's relatively easy to re-ignite. Turn the knob up top on the gas valve to pilot position, depress, light pilot with match, hold for a minute and release. Then turn knob to the on position. Pretty simple stuff.
If the thermo-couple goes bad , a new one can be acquired at most any big-box or hardware store for a couple bucks......days, nights or weekends....if you don't have one on hand already. Reasonably easy and fast to install and then you're back up and running.
When one of these other systems goes sour......good luck fixing it yourself unless you have some knowledge of how the things work, how to troubleshoot 'em and even if you do....... odds are that you're still gonna need parts. Those won't likely be so easily come by on a moment's notice. Consequently, I encourage folks to keep a new HSI or flame rod assembly for their unit on hand at all times.
Odds are that if you're out of town when the heating unit falls on it's face for the wife and kids, a serviceman is gonna get called, no matter what type of igintion system you have. But I do know it was easy to teach my wife how to relight a standing pilot while teaching her how to troubleshoot and fix one of these other systems just isn't in the cards at all.
Bottom line is that furnaces/boilers have a knack for going south in the middle of the night when it's about -20. They never fail when it's 70F outside and unimportant to the inhabitants of the home. The easier and faster the fix, the sooner everyone is warm and happy again.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
When we first moved into our house in '76 the pilots on the two furnaces (one for upstairs, one for down) would go out with fair frequency. Finally figured out that they were essentially blowing out in a failed attempt to light the main burner.
After trying everything I could think of, finally called the factory and the guy there suggested turning the pilot flames DOWN, since they were (apparently) standing too far away from the pilot jet, making them more susceptable to being blown out.
The pilots haven't gone out since, except once when the gas was shut off by a main break.
happy?
While I recognize the hassle of having to relight a gas pilot, I have to say that the alternative (electronic ignition) makes Winter power outages a more compromising condition.
For instance, last Thursday my home was one of about ~34K homes in Georgia without electrical power. While the pilot flame on the HW tank continued to provide nice hot showers, the electronic ignotion of my two furnaces kept me cold once I got out of the hot shower.
I am not aware of a means to 'light' the jet burner on a furnace if the electricity is out and no means to get juice to the electronic ignition. Just a thought. I suppose I could have bought a $500-10K generator to run on NG, but 20/20 is hindsight, no?
It doesn't do much good to light the burner if the fan doesn't come on.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Yeah, I mentioned that, too, in my 6-hours without power thread last Thursday. Remove electricity and you become a caveman--and a rather dumb one at that. I wonder what the cheapest NG-fueled generator is.
I cant say anything about the cold but during the three weeks that I did not have power it was pretty nice, kinda laid back. only problem was the noise from all the generator running 24 hour a day.. 2+3=7
In a power outage situation you can heat your house by filling the bathtub with hot water (If you have a hot water heater with a pilot.) and leaving the bathroom door open.
Obviously, this won't heat your house like a central heating system, but it will keep the house from freezing. It will also dump a lot of humidity into the house. I'm guessing the humidity won't hurt if it's only for a few days.
I did that last year. All you need is a Honeywell gas valve and a kit that goes on it for auto pilot function...The thing cost about $230 and took two hours or so...works well...I doubt the cost justifies it however..BTW.This furnace had an outboard fan motor control.(not connected to the gas valve)Grainger has the parts.
Bud
Thanks guys. Been gone for a few days and when I came back the pilot light was out again.
It looks like it might be burning to high and blowing out. I haven't found any place on the pilot light mechanism to lower the height of the flame. This unit is about 18 years old and never had this problem with it before.
Also, the flame is not centered on the thermocouple tube. I can adjust it for that.
But, I have to lay down on my side in the attic between to rafter supports to get to it. Damn pain in the wazoo! Only in Texas would they put dang heaters in the attic!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
Pilot light was blowing itself out cause the stupid gas company has been running the gas pressure to high. That didn't occur to me till I saw the gas jets on the kitchen stove almost blowing themselves out. One burner had so much pressure that it wouldn't stay light. Gas company came out and adjusted my meter. Whoda thunk!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Pilot light was blowing itself out cause the stupid gas company has been running the gas pressure to high
It should not make a big difference what you main pressure is. The regulator at your meter controls the pressure in your house lines. Gas company main pressure can vary widely depending on demand, distance from pumping stations, and a punch of other factors I don't understand.
The regulator on your meter is the large disc looking object. Internally it has an adjustable screw through a spring over or under a diaphragm. There is also a small tube with a screen covered cap either on the meter itself or the regulator. This is the ambient air pressure source that works with the regulator to keep your inside line pressure at a constant pressure. Blockage of that by insects and homeowners painting them is not an uncommon problem.
If the gas company's main pressure affected the pressure to your appliances, you need to have them replace the meter side regulator, if they didn't already.
Very often the explanation they give for a problem is the simplest on they think that all their customers can understand, not what the problem or fix really was.
In our state adjusting a customers regulator is not allowed by the PSC. It must be replaced.
Dave
Yeah, looks like they did replace the regulator. I wasn't here when they came.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Actually,the pilot flame should only engulf the last 3/8" to 1/2" of the thermocouple.Any less and it won't generate sufficient voltage to keep the pilot valve open,and any more than that,such as being centered on the thermocouple,and it will eventually cause a high level of resistance inside the thermocouple,which also results in insufficient voltage.Also,the stove and gas valve of the furnace or boiler will have it's own regulators which should compensate for any changes in the gas pressure.They're a lot smaller than the one at the meter ,so maybe if the meter's reg. crapped out,and the main pressure was high enough,it might be too much for the appliance/gas valve's reg's to handle.I'm not sure,never had to deal with the meter's reg. being no good.
Since his meter regulator was bad it was the regulator in the furnace gas valve that was shutting off his pilot. Normally NG furnaces have a single valve/regulator arrangement. A propane conversion adds another pressure switch as a low pressure shut off, in addition to a smaller orifice plate and regulator spring in the gas valve.
Dave
Yes, it can be done. Contact a local HVAC supplier that sells retail (important to ask) and ask for a universal intermittent pilot conversion kit.
You will get a valve, control board and igniter.
Some new wiring may be required.
Is it worth it? Only you will know that answer when you find out the price and then what it takes to install it. You will never recoup the price of the kit in the form of gas savings.
If your furnaces are old enough to have a standing pilot, it might be time to consider replacement.