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Discussion Forum

Pinholes appearing in copper piping

pperot | Posted in General Discussion on January 17, 2007 10:19am

My sister in law has discoverd leaking water in her home from the copper pipes. Her home is approximately 30 to 35 years old and is located in the northern Virginia area of Herndon. The leaks seem to be coming from many small (pinhole size) places all along some of the pipes. When simply rubbing on some discolored areas the water leaks more.

She has found some online discussions of chemicals used by the water companies that can cause this to happen but wants to know what options there are to fix this or must all of the piple be replaced?

Reply

Replies

  1. User avater
    PeteDraganic | Jan 17, 2007 10:37pm | #1

    Nit being a plumbing expert myself, I do know that this is fairly common problem.  I believe that certain chemicals in the water may cause the corrosion of piping.  Also, electrical currents interacting with the minerals in water may cause it and another biggy I've heard of is that acid flux from the install of piping can be suspect in causing the future corrosion or deterioration of piping.

    When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!

    http://www.petedraganic.com/

  2. User avater
    nazard | Jan 17, 2007 10:57pm | #2

    pperot:

    I recently discovered the same problem with one 10' run of copper in my c.1937 house, also in Virginia.  At every leaky spot there was a smudged fingerprint evidently left by a plumber with flux on his fingers!

    -nazard

  3. Marc | Jan 17, 2007 11:04pm | #3

    If she has several pinhole leaks it's replacement at least for those sections.
    Possible causes include electrolysis from ground currents and acidic water (primarily from wells).
    Multiple pinholes imply that the interior of the pipe has been eaten away. It's likely that the entire pipe is very thin.

  4. MSA1 | Jan 18, 2007 12:55am | #4

    Not a pro plumber but from what i've heard about that kind of problem,could be that the original plumber over fluxed or maybe minerals in the water.

  5. Mark | Jan 18, 2007 01:21am | #5

    This has been happening a lot here in s.w. Florida.  There has been lots and lots of investigation and research and the most common line that has been thrown out as the cause is "some chemical or element which is naturally occurring in the water supply" 

    This sure sounds like a cop-out answer to me, however, the one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that all the plumbing in the house needs to be replaced with something other than copper.  Most people are using cpvc.   I personally think this is hilarious because pex is so much better,faster, easier etc. ,  but none of the plumbers down here seem to want to join the rest of the country in the 21st century.

    " If I were a carpenter"
    1. User avater
      rjw | Jan 18, 2007 08:09pm | #27

      FWIW, a few concerns are starting to be raised about PEX and/or some of the PEX connectors.Based on what I've been able to find (so far) the claims aren't well supported by the available facts.For example - many refer to an engineering study which concluded that the original plastic connectors used with Polybutelene had chemical interaction problems. They then note PEX is a form of polybutelene.They fail to note that the study specifically excluded polybutelene and was limited to the connectors which were a different kind of plastic.But it is still early going, with the class action suits just getting underway.

      What made the teaching of Jesus different and apparently so hard to accept then as now, was that it required a critical reassessment of the structures and values and attitudes of human society as his listeners and followers shared in it.

      - Monika K. Hellwig

      from Jesus: The Compassion of God (The Liturgical Press, 1983)

      1. splintergroupie | Jan 19, 2007 12:30am | #28

        Robert, all the PEX connectors i've seen are metal...so i'm confused if you are talking about the old class-action lawsuits with PB pipe and their plastic connectors or something new. I couldn't find any lawsuits claiming PEX was bad....?-signed "In love with PEX"

        1. User avater
          rjw | Jan 19, 2007 01:33am | #30

          There's one started in Nevada (for 1 development/developer?)http://www.plumbingdefect.com/index.php
          http://www.plumbingdefect.com/product.phpI spent a day or so several weeks ago looking into this - some of the plumbers in my area are supposedly claiming they're staring to see problems in a big condo dev east of here.At this point, I'm not convinced that there is anything there - every year some next big thing comes along, usually to disappear soon in the mists.

          What made the teaching of Jesus different and apparently so hard to accept then as now, was that it required a critical reassessment of the structures and values and attitudes of human society as his listeners and followers shared in it.

          - Monika K. Hellwig

          from Jesus: The Compassion of God (The Liturgical Press, 1983)

          1. splintergroupie | Jan 19, 2007 03:57am | #32

            Thanks for that. I've spent some time reading about the KITEC now, but Plasco looks like a culprit, too. 

            Found this interesting thread on a plumbing forum. The two snipers later on in the thread get a lot of decent information out, in-between volleys of insults.

            I also read this forum and couldn't quite believe the misinformation that certified inspectors were giving out...ouch!

          2. User avater
            rjw | Jan 19, 2007 05:49am | #35

            >>I also read this forum and couldn't quite believe the misinformation that certified inspectors were giving out...ouch!NACHI is a joke. Actually, an embarrassment.It was started by an ex-Radon guy (his PA license was pulled) ex-real estate guy (I don't know why he's ex in that) about 5 years ago.It has an on-line exam that my then 13 year old daughter almost passed.Great marketing, but it is the joke of the inspection industry.New inspectors join it so it looks like they have qualifications. (In his marketing to HI's, he has specifically said the word "certified" tests as producing positive feelings.That's why NACHI members are "certified."

            What made the teaching of Jesus different and apparently so hard to accept then as now, was that it required a critical reassessment of the structures and values and attitudes of human society as his listeners and followers shared in it.

            - Monika K. Hellwig

            from Jesus: The Compassion of God (The Liturgical Press, 1983)

          3. splintergroupie | Jan 19, 2007 06:03am | #36

            I guess that's good and bad to hear...that they're out there passing themselves off as qualified is scary, but that that isn't the industry standard is also good to hear. Are there no state (?) standards? Not even out there in civilization????

          4. DanH | Jan 19, 2007 06:06am | #37

            > That's why NACHI members are "certified."Whereas Breaktime members are "certifiable".
            Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot

        2. McPlumb | Jan 19, 2007 03:29am | #31

          Wirsbo pex by Uponor is polyethylene not polybutelene. There is a trend by pex manufacterers to develope plastic fittings, the ones i have seen looked like PVC.

          Good quality pex is a good product.

          I'm a Wirsbo fan myself, there are caution for using it, no direct contact with sunlight for an extended period of time and avoid using adhesives or tape on it.

          1. splintergroupie | Jan 19, 2007 04:43am | #34

            Looks like Uponor will be holding the bag on some failures in UltraPEX by Plasco that they bought out, and Wirsbo's Plumb PEX/RTI. There are some class-action suits against them, in addition to the KITEC ones. The PB settlement ran close to a billion, IIRC... I don't know how much is pilot error, but all the failed installations that i've been reading about today were also egregiously done, eg. in-slab joints, but it must be more than just that because the pipe itself is splitting in some people's houses, not just the joints. Even the Oetiker bands are breaking, which is hard to imagine. I suppose with the cost of metal fittings now, the resurgence of plastic ones was inevitable, but it also may help greatly with the metal incompatibility issues and dependency on city water quality. High-pressure seems a possible cause, too. I'm on well water...maybe that's the charm. Every problem i've read about was in an urban or suburban setting, not rural.I didn't know about adhesives or tape on the tubing. I wonder how it feels about Great Stuff foam? I've used that to plug holes it goes through...I've had nothing but outstanding good performance to date on the three houses i've replumbed myself plus repairs for others, but i was rather concerned with all i read today. I recall a handyman neighbor when i bought my first house and plumbed it with PB, who told me that stuff was "bad news"; i couldn't help noticing that the back of his pickup was full of split copper pipe, LOL. OTOH my old house is still flowing fine 22 years later, even with the proto-plastic fittings. The upshot seems to be that just because it's plastic doesn't mean plumbers can be any less fussy than with copper connections.

  6. splintergroupie | Jan 18, 2007 03:09am | #6

    I have very mineralized (hard) water in my area where i bought a house with 20-y.o. leaky copper pipe. I replaced all the pipe with plastic (polybutylene, or PB, back in the days before PEX tubing), which solved the leak problem and had the happy side effect of not staining all the replacement fixtures green as the copper had done in combo with the mineralized water to the old fixtures.

    PEX is plastic tubing put together with crimp rings. The tools used to crimp the rings are expensive, but are available at rental places. It's very user-friendly stuff with no flame or solvents involved, and is the best option for a DIY job - or anyone, for that matter. I just replaced the frozen/shattered CPVC in a rental owned by a pal of mine in 3 days in zero degrees and i'm a dumb blonde girl.

    Fixing the sheetrock after the place dries out will take a little longer...

    1. Marc | Jan 18, 2007 03:32am | #9

      Your not supposed to play the dumb blonde card when your successful... :)

      1. splintergroupie | Jan 18, 2007 03:41am | #12

        I'm just offering the "See? Anybody can do this!" encouragement that bystanders need to get themselves drafted into service before they know what hit them. <G>--Splinter, posting from an electric blanket in a hot bath, with cocoa

        1. junkhound | Jan 18, 2007 03:43am | #13

          A pex crimper is a tool I dont yet have, think this is a good deal?? 4 hrs left, but more available.

          http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Universal-Pex-Crimp-Crimper-Crimping-Tools_W0QQitemZ200068927689QQihZ010QQcategoryZ42133QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

          1. splintergroupie | Jan 18, 2007 04:17am | #15

            I've never used that type of ring, but if the tool works, it's pretty cheap compared to others i've seen. The seller is in Canada, though, and i learned the hard way that items purchased in Canada, delivered by certain carriers, can have an expensive surcharge attached to them. The sellers cite an "Expedited Flat Rate Shipping Service"...but i've no idea what that means as far as actual shipping costs when all the chips are fallen.

            I have a source that sells me my parts, i put them together, then the guys lend me the tools to make the crimps. I've also rented them, but those tools can be set funny and not work as well. I bought a little $20 gizmo on ebay that i use for small forays into plumbing (posted about it here, but the my search button seems to be broken right now) that works very well. This was made by the same people and looks simpler to use than the mini-crimper i bought which uses bolts to pull two halves together. I wouldn't want to do a whole house that way, though.   

          2. User avater
            shelternerd | Jan 18, 2007 05:45am | #19

            Don't buy that thing, get a pex crimper that uses standard pex rings for sale at the local plumbing supply. And get a pex ring remover while you are at it. I'm a licensed plumber and we have the small single size compact crimpers and the great big dual size (3/4 & 1/2) that looks like a bolt cutter. the big one is my favorite, kinder on the hands at the end of the day. You need to plan your crimps so you dont wind up needing to crimp where you can't fit the crimper. We also have a bolt-on mini crimper that is 3" x 3" and does both sizes but has to be disassembled to release the crimp and it only for unusual situations.

          3. plumbbill | Jan 18, 2007 05:57am | #21

            You need to plan your crimps so you dont wind up needing to crimp where you can't fit the crimper.

            That's why I'm a nut for Uponor¯, I like that I can use the expander tool out in the open then bring the pipe to the fitting in the tight location.

            Granted I still have to get the tool in a tight location, but pretty rare.“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few, his precepts! O! ‘tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments.” —Benjamin Franklin

          4. splintergroupie | Jan 18, 2007 06:01am | #22

            I have that bolt-on one you speak of. Have you ever tried one of these? A vise grip is used on the ends to close the clamp. They look a lot easier to apply and remove from the ring, providing they work as well.

            View Image

          5. User avater
            shelternerd | Jan 18, 2007 06:07am | #23

            Wow
            That looks like it would be MUCH easier than the one I have.

          6. junkhound | Jan 18, 2007 07:54pm | #26

            You guys have given me a good start if I need pex. 

            If anybody has time to waste, could you gauge the ID of the crimp diameters and post them?

            From the looks of the Uponor tools, a Boeing surplus 2 AWG wire crimper could have its crimp jawd replaced and work for pex.  I've a lathe and forge so can make the jaws easy enough with the right dimensions.

            To forstall 'waste of time' comments -- the hour spent making a $20 part is considered 'recreation', well aware that it is not cost effective to do so on a professional basis.

          7. splintergroupie | Jan 19, 2007 12:36am | #29

            I don't know the sized, but a go/no go gauge for all the sizes is $7 here:http://www.mobilehomerepair.com/Order3.html#pexHere's a good tutorial i found about putting the parts together:http://www.mobilehomerepair.com/pocketcrimper.html

          8. brownbagg | Jan 18, 2007 06:14am | #24

            I found one like thishttp://cgi.ebay.com/ZURN-PEX-CRIMPER-3-8-INCH_W0QQitemZ180073586727QQihZ008QQcategoryZ53287QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem.It doesn't matter who he is, just so long as he says something "we" like. RJW 1/07

          9. User avater
            shelternerd | Jan 18, 2007 06:24am | #25

            I own that one but it leaves my hands pretty beat up if I use it all day long. Nicer to have longer handles. It does have a nice ratchet feature that allows you to open the jaws way back when approaching the joint and then crimp it in two squeezes. If you have strong hands it will work great.

          10. ponytl | Jan 19, 2007 04:37am | #33

            we use all wirsbo/upnor  it doesn't require a crimp tool  but an expander tool... so far we are real happy with the product at 10% the cost of copper... and a 2-3x quicker install...  with wirsbo... you expand the tube.. slip your fititng in... and it shrinks back to a tight seal... about 15 seconds... on the large 1.5" stuff we use an electric tool... they make an air powered one also  looks like an air rivit gun...

            ck it out... nice system

            p

        2. Marc | Jan 18, 2007 04:02am | #14

          Ah ha!So now we'll find a bunch of guys saying "Well, if that dumb blonde can do it in three days, I can do it in two!"Ok guys, lesson here: Don't use the man card when your bidding <G>

          1. splintergroupie | Jan 18, 2007 04:19am | #16

            They'll never take any jobs from ME! I'll work for food and flowers! And glory...lotsa glory...

  7. McPlumb | Jan 18, 2007 03:14am | #7

    An old joke in the plumbing industry, copper has a 50 year warranty, until it's installed.

    Replace as much of it as you can, then the rest latter.

    Pex is said to be inert, that is it won't react with whatever is in your water.

    Sulfur is the culprit in our area.

  8. JohnSprung | Jan 18, 2007 03:27am | #8

    There's a company out here pushing an epoxy lining fix for the pinhole problem.  Funny, because it doesn't happen much here.

     

     

    -- J.S.

     

  9. Jemcon | Jan 18, 2007 03:37am | #10

    Hard water has a high iron content. The iron causes a galvanic reaction in the pipe and causes corosion. If you eversee a house with BX wire look for a spot where the BX touches the copper and look at the pipe. It's a leak waiting to happen.

     

     

     

    Headstrong, I'll take on anyone!

    1. DanH | Jan 18, 2007 05:11am | #18

      We have high iron content here, but copper pipe seems to last pretty much forever. I believe that there are other issues more important than iron.And I've heard that "hard" water is actually protective of the pipe.
      Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot

  10. MrBill | Jan 18, 2007 03:39am | #11

    pp,

     Several years ago this was a big problem in the area. SHe should search the Washington Post archives and will probably find many articles. Have her call the water authority in Va or WSSC over in Maryland for more information. I think they decided that some of the problem was due to a change in the chemicals used for water treatment.

     Does not solve her problem, but might be some interesting reading on the subject.

    Hope this helps,

    Bill Koustenis

    Advanced Automotive Machine

    Waldorf Md

  11. DanH | Jan 18, 2007 05:09am | #17

    Occasionally it's just a bad piece of pipe, but it sounds like she probably has corrosive water. If she's getting water from a utility she should check with them about this issue and see if they have any recommendations (they will of course deny all responsibility), but probably the only option is to replace all the pipe.

    Likely horizontal runs of pipe will tend to leak first, and it may be that the major expense can be put off by replacing just the accessible stuff (which tends to be the bulk of horizontal piping). (But a careful watch needs to be kept on the remaining pipe, looking for any sign of behind-the-wall leakage. If let go the leakage can cause a serious rot or mold problem.)

    The replacement pipe, of course, should be plastic.

    Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
  12. booch | Jan 18, 2007 05:55am | #20

    How old is the Hot water tank? Rusty steel bits settled in the stream of water will corode the copper.

    Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?

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