Germs and Ladies…..
Time to place yer bets. I went to the magistrates yesterday for the first time…business related…to file charges against a customer for failure to pay.
The betting deadline is 5 days from yesterday…as the mag said she was withholding judgment for 5 days…then we’d be notified my mail.
Long story short..the floor that tried to kill me……in the pic section…was fine and dandy for the several weeks it took me to install…..then…..when I faxed the last invoice…..not to be confused with the final 10% payment, which he was to still hold…..I lost contact with the customer I’d talked to or met with every other day…..couldn’t get a hold of him…and didn’t hear back about the payment…till I finally got thru to his cell….three weeks later….and he said he was very unhappy.
I asked about what….he said the border and the field flooring had a slight lip…..I asked him if he didn’t remember me telling him that would probably happen……of course he didn’t remember…so the law suits began!
He threw down the gauntlet first…saying I was to completely sand and refinish his prefinished floor….in 4 days…or he’d hire it out…keep the money owed…and sue me for the sanding costs………the very next morning I was at the magistrates office.
He never did hire it out……but did show up with a lawyer…..saying I lied to him.
Of course…..I didn’t document everything…………lesson re-learned on my part…I also jumped in and thought I’d make the impossible livable….again…lesson re-learned…….but if I do say so myself……I make for one heck of a pretend lawyer.
I think I out lawyered his lawyer…and entertained the magistrate a bit…..and had piles and piles of useful info for her to look at…..most of which was “heresay”…..but I talked over the objections and got my point across regardless.
My case was very solid..and truth is on my side…..but his lawyer looked pretty expensive….so……who votes what?
Since I’m in the middle of high finance legal wrangling….this is for entertainment purposes only…….
So far….most were guessing a split….I sued for the whole amount due…plus a few reciepts…..around $3400…..and most guessed I’d get $1700……..but now…with the 5 day wait…..some are thinking I may have a sweep……thinking the 5 day delay is a good sign for me……..
I have no idea…I do know the lawyer was annoying the magistrate…while I made her chuckle a few times……and my closing was fantastic……very emotional……very basic.
Just told her the floor looked beautiful….I poured my heart and soul into each and every cut and fit…and he has no basis for complaint.
Jeff
…….Sometimes on the toll road of life…..a handful of change is good…….
Replies
From my limited experience in these kinds of litigation, even if I testified as your expert witness, you'd probably get half. Funny thing, if I testified for the dipsh*t, you'd get the same thing. I've given testimony for the homeowner and for the contractor. No difference. Something about the legal system. However, to qualify it a bit: The out of court and mediated settlements went in financial favor of our team. Best of luck Jeff.
You'll wager on this but not a simple football game? Man, you're a gutsy one.
__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 9/25/2002 10:38:20 PM ET by calvin
I'll bet a hundred milkbones you get two thirds. You oughta have his gonads on your mantle but that's a different subject.
You get what's coming to you plus costs plus penalty plus an ugly stare from him until a few months from now when he comes begging for you to do something else for him.
He gets
A darn good floor!
I get
A smile from knowing justice has been done.
He didn't volunteer for Piffins Arbitration Proceedings(PAP), did he?
Good luck man.
"He didn't volunteer for Piffins Arbitration Proceedings(PAP), did he?"
No.
He was probably afraid he would get smeared.
Cut me some slack here
Quittin' Time
LOL shouldn't be laughing.
DW tells me that a PAPsmear is painfulExcellence is its own reward!
Is it the pap part, or the smear part that is painful ?
And BTW: I thought Vulcan wimmin were able to block pain....
: )Cut me some slack here
Quittin' Time
Naw! They do a mind meld to pass it on to share with their mates.Excellence is its own reward!
OuchCut me some slack here
Quittin' Time
Jeff,
No idea, hope you get it all. If you don't and feel the need for some satisfaction, try a super soaker squirt gun loaded with round up. A nice long distance addition to his landscaping. Just a thought. It really is frustrating to do good work, try to warn the customer of issues, and still have to beg for your money. DanT
i'm betting that the fraternity of lawyers will prevail. ( the magistrate being a lawyer )...... & u get 1/2...
they never have forgotten that solomon only THREATENED to cut the baby in half.. they still think that's what he really would have done..
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm feeling lucky today!
I say "Buck gets it all!"
dl
My bet is you'll win slightly less than half the judgement.
But it will be a cold day in hell before you ever get a penny of it out of the customer.
Ever wonder what's wrong with people who spend $2 or more for a little bottle of Evian water?
Spell Evian backwards.
Jeff - Too bad to hear you finally had to take that route. I'm thinking 1/2, but my gut tells me what he is complaining about is a small flaw in the overall big picture. How big is the lip?
I think it is a shame that a guy can hire a contractor to do like a $8000 floor or something, say he isn't satisfied and find a small flaw (of course not knowing that the flaw he sees is the best anyone could have done to overcome issues encountered on the job) then hire a lawyer for like $700 and save himself a couple grand on the job. Pathetic really.
Then the other homeowners want to know why it costs so much to hire a good contractor or sub, gee ever hear of "Allowance for Uncollectable Accounts".
It's just a big circle.
SJKnow a little about alot and alot about little.
sounds like he was out to screw you over from the start. He probably was chatting with some handymen who said they would have done the floor for way less and felt he probably was robbed so he came up with some scheme to get you back.
half, and like a previous poster said: It will be a cold day in hell before you probably see any judgement
Jeff,
Sorry to hear of your situation.
Although I strive for perfection and attempt to please the homeowner at all costs, I too have had run ins with folks that are just looking to get something for nothing. Fortunately its never been over a tremendous amount of money. When similar circumstances have arisen and it becomes blatently obvious that I`m going to be the loser, I try and salvage what little I can without going to court. If I can get out of there with materials costs to pay my suppliers, I eat the labor and chalk it up to "leasons learned". Although I`ve never dealt with the system myself those who have always have trouble collecting anything "awarded" them.
Best of luck to you! My bet?....you never make that mistake again.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Jeff- any pics?
Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Forget the primal scream, just Roar!
I'm curious why there was any lip at all, and/or why you didn't write this in as a design feature? My bet, good luck, but don't count on any of that money, no matter how cute you thought you were in court... It's okay, I can fix it!
Billy.....there was lip because it was a glue down application of Bruce flooring for the field, and Oshkosh Historic for the border.......the flooring from Bruce is 5/16th thick...the Oshkosh was milled down to match....all prefinished.
I told him up front....and so did the first installer he called, who turned it down because he doesn't do anything he can't nail tight and sand flush.
We both also told him the concrete slab was questionable at best...and should either be grinded flat, or have the entire condo unit floated level......both of which...the condo board wouldn't let him do.....so I was recommended as the dude that could make the present mess look decent.
I also said if he wanted no lip....drop the border idea.....but of course, a slight imperfection would be perfectly fine till the final check was due.
My mistake was taking this guy at his word, partly because of his reply to my concerns, and partly because he was a referal. Both the referer and myself were taken. Both fooled.
So like I said before.....looks like I re-learned a lesson I should know all too well....put it all in writting.....which I didn't.
But I was cute in court.......so I'm hoping that helps! People liking ya can't hurt.
Found out today thru a friend that knows the county court house that this isn't the first time the guys been sued in small claims. His name is supposed to be fairly well know as an sob. The magistrate was local to the job site......but if I have to appeal......maybe we'll run into someone that's already seen him there.
More news as if comes....like everyone said.....collecting is a whole different matter.......and there are some pics I posted from way back when he was telling me the floor was beautiful in the photo section......might be under "the floor that almost killed me"...Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
Jeff Im sorry to hear it. I think we all fear it . I asked a life long friend and contractor building high end houses how he felt about having so much at stake with out security. He said" Tim , I just hope they pay me ." I dont do that type of business .
I watched my dad go to three trials . I dont really remember all the issues , but it seems the court system is set on half . Ive been involved in one land deal in court, and the judge tried to appease all. Sort of like spreading it around .
Im worried about documented evidence which you dont have availailable. You would have a point to a jury if you sounded better than the lawyer and it was sensible . But I think the judge will rule on evidence. If the other party is short on evidence , I see a decision of half if its left in the judges lap with out enough proof for a land side judgement. I dont know about collecting . That would depend on the man .
at any rate , good luck ,
Tim Mooney
Tim Mooney
Jeff Man I hate jerk offs like that but Ill give ya 3-1 in milk bones you'll get 1/2 your money faster than a DE taking out slash(You had to know the steeler punwas coming) Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Jeff,
Weren't you the one poo-pooing my thread on documentation of jobsite conversations with carbon memo pads?
It really is painless. Of course he could always say he didn't read your memo regarding the minor step, but I have ways around that to. All in a user friendly format. This is exactly the type of situation that I was referring to.
Of course I would have spec'd something of this nature in the contract documents. We all miss stuff, but if you take the time to discuss it with the prospective client, take the time to spell it in writing.
I'm feeling a little clairvoyant here, I'm thinking when you suggested taking out the border, he said something like "money is not an issue"? He definately said it at some point I'm guessing. Sounds like an ashole to me.
Best of luck.Tom
Even amoung the filthy rich, when they treat money cavalierly, my red flags go up, like a setter's paw on point.Excellence is its own reward!
Heard on the radio recently that some huge percentage of the people using small claims court were lawyers trying to recover money owed them....just throwing that out there. Kinda funny, because in my expereince and talking to lots of people in other businesses (just had one of those conversations recently), lawyers seem to be the hardest group to collect from.
Anyway, how does a lien factor in here, or does it? .....can you not lien him, because it went to court, can you lien him for the settlement if he doesn't pay?....it would be nice to know he's gonna get it put to him someday.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I had an employer stiff me for a weeks wages 15 years ago. I contacted the NC Industrial Commision. They said 400 bucks was too puny to bother with, I asked who they were working for, and they said, well, oookaaaay. They took the guy to small claims court and won, but told me they couldn't get the money, unless he wanted to pay it, or had a tax refund coming...10 years later I got a check from the state for more than twice the wages, the guy had finally filed a return that he was supposed to get moola back from...I took the family to Burger King!
The lien sounds like the way to go, or I guess in Pittsburg it's a lean...gotta keep it up though with some sharp elbows;-) It's okay, I can fix it!
...I think you will get double...
...Just 'cause the guy sounds like a real dick...
...Here's pullin' for you...we're all in this together...Red Green
The best of luck!...Hope that made ya laugh!
Peace my brotherNewf
1000 or Bust!
When you get the judgement in your favor, even if it less than what you are really owed, count it as a win and ask the judge to award all your court costs on top of the judgement. Winners are entitled to the reimbursement. Another thing to ask for is an order from the judge - I forget what it's really called - to that loser ordering him to compile a complete list of assets immediately and get a copy to you and the court. It's a way to force the guy to show stuff that you can lien. That dated order will prevent him from hiding or disposing of whatever he has. If he leaves stuff off the list or attempts to hide it he can then be hauled back into court and it won't be in the small claims court either. Check in your state if you can file paperwork with the Sheriff's office that allows seizure and sale of those listed assets to pay debts.
And then meet privately with the jerk and ask him politely, "HOW MUCH MONEY YOU GOT!!?"
Careful Newf!
...LOL...
...I meant to say ####!...
...<g>...
...Peace...Newf
1000 or Bust!
New idea ,
How about the credit bureu? wouldnt this embarrash him?Would me , and Im not rich!
Tim Mooney
Wasn't me not liking the memo idea.....I thought that a good idea even before.....like I said...lessons re-learned!
I can file a lien on the property after awarded a judgement......which I probably would do if need be......but here's the rub.....the dude is in his mid 70's......just divorced from his life long wife........and is just now moving into the condo......
So...to me...that says he ain't planning on selling anytime soon......like not till he's dead of old(er) age! So I'm guessing a lien against his proprety isn't gonna faze him one way or another!
I'm also guessing collecting ain't gonna happen fast or easy. But first things first...gotta wait and see if there's anything to collect first!
Thinking the office supply store is a stop first thing Mon morn for some carbon memo pads!
Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
Find out if you can get a lein with interest applied compounded over time not paid. Good luck!
Jeff, you don'r have to wait for a judgement to file a lien. He owes, so file now. Does he own the condo already? If not, a lien could prevent the sale. No pay, no sale. He can go live on the corner in a cardboard box. One of my friends was owed 28K and was being put off by the builder. Finally told him he was filing on a current project that was in the process of closing, not the job that the money was owed on but 2 removed. The lien would have hurt the sale so the builder forked over the entire 28K. Problem solved. Don't know if that bit of info can help or jog some additional help.
Ralph....he already owns the joint. And I was told buy the powers that be that I needed a court decision to file a lien......but I could file an "intent to lien".....beforehand. Kinda like a warning shot. Skipped that step..as I figured this dude wouldn't scare easily.
Millionaires...gotta love them! All for $3400.00.
Have a new question..his yellow pages ad reads....XYZ Company, Ltd.
Is that shorthand for a limited liability company? If so..that would keep me from liening his company. I'm betting he's protected the company in one way or another.
Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
Jeff
He has already made partial payments, I assume by check.
If you remember the bank you can garnish his bank account. If you don't see if your bank has a picture of it. It might cost a little for them to research it, but garnishing a bank account if the best way, if there is any money in the account. Specially fun if it makes his condo fees, utilities, etc bounce.
Can you get a lien / judgement on his car? If he trades fancy cars every year or two...
if you do win, and the butthole wont pay. Do this simple thing. Find one of those law firms that buys settlements for pennies on the dollar. They buy your claim and immediately start with the fun. Or contact a collection agency and hire them to recover the costs. You might not get anything but collection agencies and those pennies on the dollar settlement buyers are in tight with the credit report companies....
I have a buddy that knows a collection guy......a real/legal one....not some leg breaker.......still not sure which would be the better hire!
He said the guy works for something like a 10% commission...but said my little $3400 total sued for wouldn't interrest him........and that would be if I was awarded it all.
All very good idea, though.......at now I have more options to consider. Thanks, Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
Jeff,
The leg breaker is the better hire.Ditch
So what's the update, dude?.
Excellence is its own reward!
there's another thread around here somewhere.........got a split.
Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
In hand or on paper?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Paper.....had to get a few legal type questions answered before I contacted him to be a nice guy, help speed things up, save him the cost of a stamp....and offer to drive right on over to the office to pick up the check I'm sure he's planning to happily write out!
Will keep everyone up to date on the payment process too.
Hope this is helping someone be a litle more alert. Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
So once you've got the lien, you just have to wait for him to kick the bucket..
Excellence is its own reward!
We can take care of that. :)
I understand the lip...hey, celebrate the lip! II don't know if PA Small Claims court is the same as NC, but even if you do win the judgement, the deadbeat still doesn't have to actually pay you...it's a crock...good luck, you'll need all you can get... It's okay, I can fix it!
Since there is time to still wager in I'm going with
SOB customer (1)
Jeff J. Buck (0)
I hate to say it but matters like this always seem to grossly favor of the customer. Even if you do get a judgment and are awarded 100% of what your owed, good luck collecting your money. Been their done that, I threw good money after bad for seven years trying to collect on a small claims judgment that I had on a deadbeat.
This guy knows what he's doing! Not paying you and going to court is like the slots at Vegas. Except he owns the casino.
Scott R.
Sorry to hear about your misfortune with a bad customer. I'm not sure what state you're in, but if you've done whatever you are required to do to protect your lien rights you shouldn't have any trouble collecting any judgement that you receive. Many states require that you file a notice of intent to lien prior to filing a lien, and then provide a time period, typically ten days, before you can actually forclose on the lien. When you move to forclose on the lien they either have to pay or you can force a sale to satisfy the amount you're owed.
The legal theory is something like this: you performed work on this persons property that increased or preserved the value of this property. You are entitled to payment for this.
You've learned the lesson now about writing something up that acknowledges the "understanding" about the finished product. Your contract probably says something about a "substantial and workmanlike manner", or something similar. It sounds like you did the best that could be done given the paramaters.
I hope you are awarded what you have coming to you, which in my opinion is the balance owed, plus any costs incurred in forcing payment.
Please do post the eventual results.
I'll bet all my milkbones that the magistrate's decision will be a split.
: )Cut me some slack here
Quittin' Time