I need to place a 8in by 10in beam that is almost 22′ long. What is the weight of an 8in by 10in? 35lbs? Does it have to be cut exact to length? Should I leave a gap on each end? Should it sit directly on the concrete in the pocket? What is the best way to shim a beam? Should I order it with holes drilled in it to make the wood connections? How many bolts per foot? What size bolt?
Thanks for your help.
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Replies
Guess this is your first beam?
The weight isn't just a function of the height and width but the thickness of the steel. See this link for a good description - http://www.efunda.com/math/areas/RolledSteelBeamsS.cfm
I always have beams cut a little short. Best to take field measurements and subtract 1/2" at each pocket. This provided you still have enough bearing surface beneath each end.
It can sit directly on concrete but you want to be sure it's primed first to minimize rusting. I usually drop the pocket at least 1/2" and use steel shims to bring it up.
I order 1/2" holes on the top flange staggered at 16" o.c. and use 1 1/2" long 3/8" dia. lag bolts from beneath into a 2x6 or 2x8 plate. Remember to plan your beam pocket for the extra plate thickness.
You can through bolt the plate also.
The trick is lifting the beam. I get a small crane - worth every penny.
MG
You are right it is my first steel one. The Architect drew it as "W8X10". This is not an 8" by 10". But what is it? Thanks for your help
W for wide flange; 8 for 8" deep; and 10 for 10 pounds/foot cross-section of the beam. All in all, pretty small and light. Should not be hard to move around.
So the size of th ebeam is 8.02 by ????
8.02??? Dunno what you mean by that. Anyway, here are all the dimensions...http://www.engineersedge.com/standard_material/Steel_ibeam_properties.htm
First of all, I don't know the weight exactly, but I can tell you that it will be heavy as he--. If you have some strong helpers you might be able to do it safely, but I think a crane rented for a couple hours is a better idea! Think of the cost of a trip to the hospital. Yes, you absolutely should cut it to an exact length, leaving some play on the ends. It's going to be heavy and you don't want to jerk around with it any more than necessary. If your pocket in the foundation was perfect then setting the steel directly on it would be great, but why risk it? If you have to cut the foundation to make room for the steel it can get ugly real fast. You can shim it with some small squares of steel which can be had from the metal shop. They come in different thicknesses from an 1/8 to a 1/2". Mix a couple up to get the beam to the correct height. Some inspectors want to see the shims and the remaining space around the bottom of the beam filled in with cement, I'm not sure if that is always required. I have seen shim slate used in place of the metal, but it's not my first choice. Holes are a good idea if you want to wrap the beam or attach it to the surrounding wood. You do not want to have to do any drilling on the jobsite, they are much better equipped for that at the fabricator. Tell them how you want to use the beam and they can probably help you out with some suggestions about placement and size of the bolts. Good Luck! Doug
Thanks for your input. I will pick up steel shims in advance.
BHackford,
As for the weight, it's the last # on the beam times the length in feet ie. W 10 35 means wide flange 10" tall and weighs 35lbs/ft. so 770 lbs for a 22'er. Now if you're playing with I-beams of that size, and don't know this stuff, one wonders why you are?
WSJ
Edit: for the holes, rent a magnetic drill, and put them exactly where you want 'um
Edited 11/19/2004 10:38 pm ET by WorkshopJon
>for the holes, rent a magnetic drill, and put them exactly where you want 'umIdeally, an engineer will specify hole placement. Doing it the wrong places, or too many places, can compromise the beam.
Ideally, an engineer will specify hole placement. Doing it the wrong places, or too many places, can compromise the beam."
Cloud
Good point but,.... you would have to drill an awful lot of very large holes in an awful lot of places to compromise the strength of a properly spec'd I-beam. Do the various trades go to an engineer every time they drill holes it a joist?
But, since you brought it up, how large a hole should one be concerned about? My impression was that BH probably wanted a few 3/8" or 1/2" holes. Hardly an issue on a 22' W 10 35 that was spec'd right.
Jon
After seeing the way some pros hack up an I-joist, I prefer to not assume what they'll do with a beam and a magnetic drill. <G> Better safe than sorry...especially if the beam was speced by an engineer...getting a drilling schedule shouldn't be a big deal beyond that. But that's why I added "ideally."
If I'm working alone I usually cut them with a torch to a length I can handle, set them up with Lally columns to position them and weld them back into one piece. Wait, wait--this is a joke. Sheeesh! Tyr
The guy I buy beams from delivers them with crane boom on his truck and they get set right in place.
usually.
Had one job where it went in under an existing house to take the supporting wall out. It was something like a W1855 x 28' long.
We waited for the ground to freeze, and drove it around back on a dolly - lowboy type trailerand put a winch on it to dragit into position. Tracks and rollers make that easy when you think it out ahead of time. Then we jacked it into place one end up 8" each lift, building cribbing up under it as we went.
Had one where the terrain would not allow the crane to boom it all the way so it was set across the opposing bearing walls and then we just scooted each end alonga few inches at a time with a pry bar, until it was next to the pocket, then two men to lower it in, one end at a time.
Beams are heavy and can rioll, but if you think it through ahead of time, and handle one end at a time, nobody needs to get hurt.
Comealongs, prybars and rollers save men.
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Thanks for your reply. For the columns, do you normally weld these? And if so when? After the roof is on and you are just careful not knock them out of position?
Columns?Nine times out of ten, the reason i use steel is to achieve a freespan with no support columns to interupt the room below.Your beam will support itself and the weight of joists ust fine. Once ther floor system above is placed, you can then go under and set up an adjustable post jack holding the top in place temporarily with a clamp. Level the floor off by adjusting the screw, then dril a couple holes to hook the plate to the beam. If you have a welder, so much the better.
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Piffin is right - as usual. My wife & I set two beams about the same cross section as yours, but only about 12 ft long. Moved them into place using Egyptian Engineering (sections of round cedar fence post as rollers) and a scissor lift rented from whoever for half a day. Don't even think about drilling them on site. Measure precisely after the concrete is placed and have all holes punched by the fabricator. We had anchor bolts at each end of the beam, & measured at least 5 times & averaged. That took a lot less time than trying to fix an out of location hole or bolt buried in concrete. Takes them about 5 min per hole to punch, and they are perfect. At least 4.5 min of that time is in placing & setting up the punch! Move very slowly & deliberately. Think ahead of every move for safety. We lifted them about 12 ft to clear top of wall, them rotated into alignment & lowered onto pads in pockets. Beams were obviously longer than distance between walls. A beam is so nicely uniform in weight distribution that it balances very nicely at its centerpoint & rotates easily into position if you only have a few degrees to rotate. Whole job took about 45 min each. If you can support beam at centerpoint, it is nearly effortless to move any direction. My son-in-law & I did same thing w/ the two 36 ft long main rafters for our shop bldg. Moved them over 200 ft down a dirt road, onto the concrete floor & into place for neighbor w/ forlift agriculture tractor to lift into place.
Good luck.
Don
Don't even think about drilling them on site. Measure precisely after the concrete is placed and have all holes punched by the fabricator.......Takes them about 5 min per hole to punch, and they are perfect. At least 4.5 min of that time is in placing & setting up the punch!"
Don,
That's why they make magnetic base drills. Way quicker, and designed specifically for that purpose. Probably rent one for $10/day
http://www.milwaukeeconnect.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=27&catalogId=40027&langId=-1&productId=284334&mainHeader=Tools&categoryId=189341&mainCategoryId=362&parentProd=281164
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WSJ
Edited 11/20/2004 9:32 am ET by WorkshopJon
Jon: Still gotta measure just as precisely & accurately and then if the holes are in the wrong spot, it's your fault if you measured correctly. Have to go get the drill and return it, and if my experience is anything, will cost a heck of a lot more than $10 per day. For me it would be an hour trip each way to any place that rents such equipment. You make a miserable mess w/ cutting oil that you have to clean up. Nah - I'd rather let someone who owns the proper equipment do it in their shop & be done w/ it. Watched them do mine & it was well worth the small effort on my part. Had to go there anyway to inspect it for conformation to my order. Turned out to be an absolutey perfect fit. All bolts went right through the center of their punched out holes - on both ends.DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
You make a miserable mess w/ cutting oil that you have to clean up."
Don,
Since you brought it up, and I do lots of machining as my day job.... You don't need "cutting oil" to drill into mild steel. Some type of coolant usually, which is normally 98% water. The amount one would normally use would not make any kind of a mess.
We have one of those mag drills where I work to put non-critical holes (+ - .005") in big stuff (vs. hoisting a part up on a CNC) they are slick. Currently two on e bay. Price is up to $56.00 on the one below.
WSJ
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Jon: I defer to you on this one. You wear this tee shirt - I'm running around neked!DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Bachford, most steel has the weight per foot stamped onto the web. Find that number and multply by 22.
If the plans are calling for an 8x10, that means you need an 8" beam at 10 pounds per foot. That would be a very light beam, one that would easily be set by hand by a couple of pros. I'm not suggesting it, but that beam could easily be set by one person that knew how to rig and manipulate the thing. On the other hand, if you don't know what your doing, you might end up wearing that beam as a hat....not good.
If the beam is 8" high and 10" wide, which could be possible, but not probable, it could weigh over 50 pounds per foot, which makes things considerably harder. Then, I would not recomend hand setting unless you have someone skilled in handling objects like that.
I use a 'beam turner" fashioned out of a bent steel pipe with a large pipe wrench inserted and opened wide enough to grasp, yet sloppy enough to release the flange edge. I worked a steel supply yard for three years out of high school so I learned a few tricks from the old timers there. A small 220 # beam can easily be rolled with a large pipe wrench or a large crescent wrench...I have a 24" size that comes in handy occasionally.
If there is a stanchion midway, you can order the beam to be spiced over that column using holes and spice plates. That will reduce the weight but add to setting time.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Thanks. The architect wrote "W8X10". What size is that? 8 in wide and 10lbs???
Yes...its an 8" ibeam 10 pounds per foot. Thats a light beam...you would need a mid span support.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Yes, two supports. Which is the reason I asked the question. This seem like to much steel to me. 8"by10" but the beam is really almost 4"X8"!!! and only weights 220lbs. This a three man job at the worst.
I agree....three inexperieced men will easily figure it out. I could set that light one myself with a little rigging (wood frames and planks) and my turning bar.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Edited 11/20/2004 11:31 pm ET by blue_eyed_devil
"The architect wrote "W8X10". What size is that? 8 in wide and 10lbs???"
A lot of this has already been said, but...
Thw "W" means wide flange. The first number is the nominal depth of the beam. So yours is around 8" deep.
The last number is the pounds per running foot that the beam weighs. The width of the beam has to be looked up in a chart.
We sell steel beams and posts. When requested, we pre-dril holes, prime or prime and paint them. (At additional cost)
We also sell "shim packs" that are a series of metal shims in various thicknesses.
We often deliver them with cranes and set them in place. You beam probably isn't big enough to need one.
Regarding the length - Our salesmen typically measure the foundations, and have them cut 1/2" or 1" short to allow some "slop".
I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa - not screaming and yelling, like the passengers in his car.
here's a story for your collectiion of truss and beam screw-ups...Two steel beams were deliverd to a site as ordered, one about ten inches shorter than the other, around 34 or 36 feet long.They were marked A and B as denoted in the plans.The guys building the place went to grab a beam for the pockets in foundation so they could start framing."Oops, this beam is ten inches too long!"So they called the welder down to shorten it and punch acouple new holes. Everything went fine untill they went to install the second one for the second floor frame."Oops, this beam is ten inches too short! better cal Bob back again to weld that cutoff back on."They had never studied the whole house plan or nioticed that the beams were two different sizes.
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It is not uncommon for framing carpenters to treat steel as they do lumber. If they look about the same, they are the same.
I preempted this on a job that had a lot of steel, by spraypainting key numbers on the end of each steel member, and spraying the matching key # (1, 2, 3, . . . ) on the beam pocket or socket or bearing where the steel was to go. I also marked the plans accordingly.
Believe me, I've got tons of stories like that. Guys in a hurry cutting things without checking stuff out. In their defense though - I suspect it's easy to do. I know I've measured stuff wrong and/or cut stuff wrong more than once. When you're in a hurry it's easy to do. We had a job not so long ago that called for 38' I-joists. The yard guys went out and pulled a bunch of them and threw them on the truck. Driver delivered the load. Customer calls back and said he got 36' I-joists instead of 38'. We have yard guys go pull some more and send another truck out. Driver drops off the new I-joists and re-loads the old ones. Customer calls in and says he got another batch of 36' I-joists. We had someone go out to see what was going on. Turn out we had a 36' package of I-joists that came from the factor with 38' spray painted on the bunk wraper. No one had ever put a tape on them to verify the length.
Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off now.
LOL, which left the customer thinking that you guys couldn't read a tapeA more common mistake along those lines would be reading 31'6 or 32'6" if the tape is upside down.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"A more common mistake along those lines would be reading 31'6 or 32'6" if the tape is upside down."
Obviously I've never done that. I'm sure you haven't either.
(-:
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.
Watch out, a w8x10 may not (or may be 8" deep). The numbering system for I or w beams is even more screwed up than it is for dimensional wood.... A w8x whatever could be (i'm guessing here, no books handy) 7 3/4 up to 8 1/4. You have to look up the friken size of the beam. I don't even want to talk about widths.
11 grand worth of iron in the place I'm building, boy oh boy am I getting a education!
>> A w8x whatever could be (i'm guessing here, no books handy) 7 3/4 up to 8 1/4.Pretty close. According to Machinery's Handbook, the depth of W8 beams ranges from 7.89" to 9". The W8x10 is 7.89". The other dimensions are:
width 3.940"
flange thickness 0.205"
web thickness 0.170"
cross sectional area 2.96 square inches
"a w8x10 may not (or may be 8" deep). "
That's why I said it was the NOMINAL depth of the beam. They're generally fairly close.
Taxation WITH representation isn't so hot, either
You received a lot of good advice here. It was not clear whether you already had the beam on site. If not, just order it with the holes and the truck will set it in place for you when it arrives. Be absolutely sure of your measurement.
If it is already on site, don't fret. Just drill your holes using plenty of oil on the bit. If you don't have cutting oil, regular air tool oil will work just fine. The beam weight you will have to deal with in terms of lifting is only half of the 700 lbs. Moving it will be tricky, but a few folks can do it. Once you manually get one end into the pocket, the main danger is somebody having a poor grip at the other end or poor footing and having the beam slide back out. It can be done, but the crane is definitely the best way.
Thanks for the advice.
Never have drilled holes for plates on a beam. I lay the plates, drive a few 16's in the bottom edge and bend them around the top flange. Once you set the joists on it and toenail, where is it going? I drill them on site for the column bolts, but that's only 4 per, and usually only 3/8" holes...easy with a sharp bit, That or I weld them to the bottom.
New construction, we have the beams on site at backfill, and the trackhoe sets them for nothing, additions we crane.
I thought code required bolts?
Musta missed that code....but what would bolts due? All you want the bolts to do is keep the plate from sliding around till you get the joist nailed down.
Keith we bent nails on a few thousand feet of beams ourselves. Trust me...once the weight of the joist in on it...it aint moving unless you get crazy with a sledge hammer (I've had to do that a few times).
Now we shoot everything on with a Hilti, but occasionally we run out of shots and I don't think twice before I do the bent nail thing. Now however, I just shoot the nails through the top edge angling them out and bend them over with my hammer.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!