Plaster vs. drywall mud for remodeling
whatever
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Does anyone out there plaster over new drywall instead of using drywall joint compound? The father of the guy I work with says it is way more efficient, for remodeling applications, to apply one coat of plaster over fiberglass tape, then to apply three coats of drywall mud.
Replies
no... we use a lot of plaster skim coat.. but it is subbed.. and yes , it is a lot moreefficient, clean, and fast compared to mud
but for repairs and small jobs we use Durabond and one coat of mud finish
I get lost on WHY you would plaster a wall then mud over it . . . ?
Are you talking about using veneer plaster just to more or less bed the tape?
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
For small jobs is better to use fiberglass tape and plaster instead of three coats of joint compound and sanding.
The veneer plaster or custom mix plaster can be done in one trip instead 3-4.
Even if you mix a low tech (joint compound with plaster of paris and water) you get the job done in one coat follow by a finish coat the same time. (only joint compound) with no need of sanding.
YCF
No, I got that. I think you missed what I said - the original said to plaster first, then dw mud over it. I've done veneer plaster. I've done drywall. I'm just at a loss why you'd mix the two. If you mud over anything, you're still sanding, and putting wet mud over barely cured plaster sounds like a recipie for bad bonding. You've got a chemical reaction going on underneath a compound that essentially dries solely by evaporation. Different RH, different cure times, etc. I guess my argument was if you're going to plaster, then plaster. Why muck things up by mudding over it."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
No, I got that. I think you missed what I said - the original said to plaster first, then dw mud over it. I've done veneer plaster. I've done drywall. I'm just at a loss why you'd mix the two. If you mud over anything, you're still sanding, and putting wet mud over barely cured plaster sounds like a recipie for bad bonding. You've got a chemical reaction going on underneath a compound that essentially dries solely by evaporation. Different RH, different cure times, etc. I guess my argument was if you're going to plaster, then plaster. Why muck things up by mudding over it
Ok. I may confuse you, but A. You can plaster first and use mud over it. If you use Durabond as plaster. (I think he said Durabond.) This way you save a trip or two. It is proven that joint compound goes over Durabond with no problems.
B. The "venner" plaster that we're mixing is not the one that you're using. What i say was..." if you mix joint compound with plaster paris and water " This low tech mix is the best "All in one and all purpose plaster. Add some pva latex primer and becomes high tech.
Now, you can apply 3-4 coats with this D-Mix. in 45 minutes.And at the end if needed you can use joint compound as a top skim coat.
Imagine a ready mix plaster /compound that you can apply with the roller or tape knife and that you can go over as many times and any time you wan't with the same mix or even with reg. joint compound without any problems.
YCf D
Edited 12/26/2004 8:00 pm ET by YCFriend
With you. I never saw the Durabond, but at that point, I'm on board. I hate seeing guys using EZsand or even (yes, I've seen it) topping compound to bed their tape. I almost always use DB 90. Hand taping, one bag is about what I can go through in just over an hour. Clean the tools quick, clean the bucket, mix another one.
The plaster of paris in premix I've heard of but never tried. I could be the average guy and say I haven't used it therefore it's bunk, but frankly I'm a little interested. That could be another thing to tuck in the mental toolbox. So how does it work. You use a bucket of all purpose and some quantity of straight p.o.p. and it sets in 30, 45 minutes? And in what situations do you find it useful / expedient / ecomomical?
I went for several years without really knowing the diversity in muds out there. One day a friend chided me and said you're really being kind of an idiot by not playing around with this stuff and figuring it out. I've been thankful ever since. Just the other day, I'm 30 minutes from shooting Builders Solution on a wall (primer/surfacer) and noticed a box cut too big that was going to show. Now there, EZsand in the 5 minute saves your bacon. Small fill, blow a fan on it, sand it in 20 minutes, and the day was saved. I wouldn't have known about that 3 years ago. BTW, if you're into DW, that Builders Solution stuff, man. That was awful slick. That one I can elaborate on if youre interested.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
rw... do tell
<<<BTW, if you're into DW, that Builders Solution stuff, man. That was awful slick. That one I can elaborate on if youre interested.>>
we hit all kinds of odd stuff.. always need another club in the bag
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Well, here's what I got, and keep in mind my experience base is a survey of 1 here.
It's a Sherwin product that came out within the last year. Sold as a primer/surfacer. It does a couple of things. It takes a Lvl3 finish to a 5 (and a very good 5 at that) and it primes the wall simultaneously. There's some things I like about it. It's cheap - $11 a gallon, though coverage is less than paint. I was shooting it on in the mid range, about 14 mils wet, and that worked real well. Less looked thin, when I tried the 25 mil max, it got saggy. But it goes on before trim, so you have just plain DW and shoot this on, it dries in a few hours, and your wall looks almost like you veneer plastered it. It sands marginally better than durabond. Its pretty tough. Which is good, unless you get runs. Im lucky enough to have a Festo Rotex and it licked the runs out smooth nice and quick.
I cost compared it to what a DW guy here charges to go from 3 to 5 and what a painter charges for the prime coat. It saves about 2 cents a foot. So it's nothing to say hey, here's a money saver. I think the sales pitch in the thing, if there is one, is it simplifies something and makes it better. You cant skim a wall as fast as you can shoot it, and you can't prime it as fast as you can before the trim is on. All you have to mask is glass and lights.
You do, however, need a pretty big pump. I used a 1095, and I am told that's about the smallest to go. I used that b/c I could still run it off a 20a circuit. The MSDS sheets, if you're into that kind of thing, are off on tip size. They say use a .27 but thats too big. The 5gal says .19-.21 I shot a 521 and that went well. But the other thing is when it goes on, not intuitive to a painter. You use an airless, you're used to standing with the head 12 inches off the wall. More like 30. You want the edges of the fan to just start curling where it hits the wall. Like the airstream off the edges of a jet, little tornadoes. Reason is, very high solids content, very heavy pattern, and you'll get ridges if you don't back off. Wear a mask, you're going to get misty here.
I guess what sells me thus far. I had a basement, wall surface somewhere around 1500. I do my own DW most of the time, but I hand tape and mud. I'm picky, but you know. Machines are just idiot proof almost. I'd love to tell you I'm perfect, but I'm not. I shot that place, 10 gal in about 10 minutes. The walls are just polished. And now they're primed, there's no way to see that annoying little grid pattern or photographing, they look like plaster does after that final trowel job. The primer will hold egg, gloss, whatever you want. And it's a surfacer, so any little things I missed, pinholes, scratches, its all gone.
If there's a con, you need the big pump. Probably not a big issue, so long as you can rent one. And you'll need to make sure it's got coarse filters in it. Primary substance in here (the surfacer part) is pulverized quartz. A little learning curve just in technique, getting the fan right, but not too much. Runs will sand out, but not as easy as DW.
As a builder, I would certainly add a small upcharge for the quality, regardless of the fact that it might actually cost you a few cents less. A customer who sees it will recognise the difference immediately unless they're blind. After my first trial run with it, I'm sold enough I'm pretty much intending to make it a part of the package deal on any interior finishes I do. My builder friend came over after I Nextel'd him and he felt similar. Lots of wow and holy cow and all that. He's catering to the just under a mil housing market, which here anyway is up there. That's about what I know so far, and lots of opinion to go with it.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
well, RW.. now that's a pretty good run-down..
i'll print that out and file it for my painter...we don't own a sprayer.. when we get stuck with painting it's strictly rollers
i saw some of the adds from SW about this surfacer.. but 1st hand knowledge is rare..
your walls surface quality ratings ( 3 to a 5, 1500 , etc.. ) what is the source of those ratings ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Your ? makes me stop. I find myself thinking I know exactly what a lvl3 finish is but never had to define it. I know there are definitions; am sure someone like Ferguson probably has them printed in his book somewhere, but to me a 3 is just a decent job. Its tape plus two coats, all fasteners covered, everything sanded, no divots left. Ready for paint. But it leaves paper. A lvl5 tries to correct this (primarily because of paint) by skimming the entire surface once the 3 has been achieved. It works - it evens out the porosity of the paper so joints and fasteners don't telegraph through on paints with sheen. But it's softer, and it is very thin.
The surfacer accomplishes the same thing - evening out the porosity, and fills all the nitnoid stuff you might have missed. (I don't know about you, but I spotlight DW, and I always find stuff, and yes, I spotlight my own mistakes too). So I say it achieves a lvl 5 partially because that's part of the advertisement and partially because having used it once I can see why it does that. It accomplishes more than a skim. If you wanted to do the same thing with mud, you'd have to trowel on an even 1/16th of durabond over the whole thing, dead smooth. I can't pull that off. I know, I tried it once just to see. I think having the whole thing primed prior to trim, while counter-intuitive, isn't a bad racket. At least for the builder. You can get a guy in there with a pump to shoot the thing fairly quick, an the amount of prep is minimal. Like I said in the first post, just handimask the glass. I stuffed wadded up 6" paper in the outlet boxes just to keep sparky happy.
On a smooth ceiling (where problems invariably show easier) I took a cheap wooden paint pole and stabbed a 6" ring of cardboard. When I came to the light, stick the cardboard over the hole to keep the can clean. That was one heavy piece of cardboard by the end of it. But it worked, and took about 30 seconds to rig."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I would like to ask one innocent question. When looking at a hole in a wall that someone else finished, how can you tell for sure if it was finished with drywall mud or some type of plaster ?
Previous owners' remodeling included some vertical columns that our kids have put several large chips/dents into. I am just looking for a simple and effective way to make repairs.
Thanks !
It can be hard getting a Q answered or noticed sometimes when it slips into the middle of another discussion.The fact there are nicks and dings to that degreee hints that it is likely SR mud because plaster is much harder. To test, try a wet rag on it for awhile. SR mud will disolve and get meally at the edges where it is not protected by paint. Plaster will not. base under plaster is grey. durabond base is a brown-grey tint. plaster is whiter.patching small nicks is easiest with spackle. Larger depends on nature of the damage and what is there now.
try a separate new thread with a photyo for discussion maybe.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
mike,
http://www.nationalgypsum.com/resources/techtalk/revisiting.html
carpenter in transition
tim... thanks... i read it and printed it..
wonder if the plaster guys have similar specsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I had to twist my rocker's arm to get him to use it, but we used SW's Builders Solution on the last job we did. Big Pete's always been a USG First Coat guy for the primer/surfacer part of the job.
Excellent results. Better than the USG, in terms of hiding and leveling, and it proved to be a superior base for the finish paint. We carefully one-coated everything. A second coat was not necessary.
USG's Tuff-Hide is comparable with Builders Solution, not First Coat.
Haven't seen or used First Coat for a coupla years, but I remember that it could be brushed or rolled as well as sprayed and it isn't applied at the same mils
Barry E-Remodeler
You're right. I just went to the USG site and read the specs.
My sheetrock guy, who hangs, tapes, and primes, was always selling me on First Coat as the answer to all my prayers. Said it made him look good.
He poo-pooed the use of the SW product for two reasons, probably. Unfamiliarity and price. Said the Builders Solution wasn't worth the extra bucks.
But I'll bet when I get new quotes, I'll find the USG Tuff Hide price competitive with the SW Builders Solution. Each is a vinyl / latex.
I note in the USG specs that Tuff Hide is OK by them as a final ceiling finish, without painting over. Have you done this? Will your supplier doctor the Tuff Hide with tint for you?
"I note in the USG specs that Tuff Hide is OK by them as a final ceiling finish, without painting over. Have you done this? Will your supplier doctor the Tuff Hide with tint for you?"
Gene:
I have always painted over it. My supplier is a drywall supply store who doesn't have a tint machine, but I notice that USG says it can be tinted up to 2 oz per gallon.
I may have to try that.
Barry E-Remodeler
Sounds like SW's answer to the USG Tuffhide primer/surfacer. Suppose to go on at 15 to 20 mils wet with the .027 tip
I use a 333 airless to apply it ...makes a great surface to finish. The last time I used it I used a long nap roller to double backroll to match existing..worked good
Barry E-Remodeler
So how does it work. You use a bucket of all purpose and some quantity of straight p.o.p. and it sets in 30, 45 minutes? And in what situations do you find it useful / expedient / ecomomical?
There is so many benefits in this D-mix and so EZ to use that... you need to spend some time to master the mix. you can do a search for D-Mix and you learn the basic's. If we have many Breaktimers that they like to learn the D-mix system ..then I will talk to JLC people and see if they can arrange for a seminar? What you guys think? I think is worth it to learn another trade in 2-3 hours.
YCF D.
You ae speaking of hot mud then and not plaster. Plaster is plaster and different rules apply
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You can get into problems with bonding that way. Plaster needs tooth to adhere well to the board. Plasterboard is a different product than sheetrock for that reason. When we have to use mud over plaster for patches, we use a bonding agent first to be sure they stick. I have seen guys who ignored this in interest of time, and seen the patch flaking off a yaere or two later
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I see you're new here. The Welcome Wagon Lady will be along shortly...Oh, Rez!
There are many discussions here about drywall and plaster. Use the advanced search.
Plaster/drywall choice is a regional thing. Contractors in areas where skilled plasterers exist tend to use blueboard and veneer plaster because it's faster, less dusty and provides a better finished product. It's not a DIY project, however. You only get one shot as the plaster sets up so you want someone who knows what they're doing.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
Isnt plaster a surface that is a lot harder to sand as well?
whatever, plaster also has a moisture content 'green time', I wouldnt want to use it in a rushed situation, your plaster wont cure properly. I believe plaster needs a week to cure at least, unless you are checking with a moisture meter. As piffin said, greenboard, blueboard and rock are very different beasts.
You do 3 coats for a reason.... production work always shows.
zen
In plastering, there's no such thing as sanding. Veneer plaster doesn't take that long to dry...almost the same as joint compound. Once it's dry, you're good to go. If it's the three coat plastering, scratch, brown, and white...that's a different story.
Plaster is polished smooth upon apploication and does not ever get sanded. But your point about cure time is right on. In this humid climate, I have heard of several stories of plaster that gets painted too soom and the paint boils right back off. cure time for old types was thirty days. Theoretically, with veneere palster and latex paint, you can do it right after it dries, but that cn eb two weeks in my experience.
I'm curios what Mike Smith would have to say. He is in this scenario often.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
we usually allow a week for cure before painting .. that's with skim-coat ( two coat... scratch & finish )
edit:
that works out just fine.. the time can be well used hanging doors, running trim..
or insulating an attic if you were holding off until the lid is on
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 12/26/2004 12:30 pm ET by Mike Smith
I am a plasterer and run a small crew consisting of my two grown up sons and my partner. We stopped using veneer plaster about two years ago. It goes on too thin and cracks too easy. We mix our own lime and job mix it with USG Structo-gauge Super strength plaster. If we are resurfacing we use USG Durabond instead of plaster bonding agents which on rare ocassions, fail, except over masonry. Over masonry, we always use a plaster bonder. If we are plastering blue board we paper tape all the seams with durabond. We started doing that almost four years ago netting near zero cracks. The structo-gauge goes on thicker, allowing us to straighten and flatten surfaces. If the surface is way out of flat, we use USG Imperial base coat to bring it close before finishing. The big difference between what we do and skim coater plasterers and tapers can be seen in how plumb straight and true we can get our surfaces. We never use inside corner trowels. We snap chalk lines along the edges of each surface , then the plaster is brought to the straight lines. We pack and polish the plaster which makes for a much harder surface than plaster that is just mopped once it is basically smooth. The average plaster skim coat job is a good value for what it is, as is taping, but there is a world of difference between that and real plastering. The one huge down side to real plasterwork: price. Mainly because it is labor intensive.
Sam
sam.. where do you work out of ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, We work out of Uncasville CT. We are Avalanche Plastering
Sam
sam... i was hoping for Virginia..
hey.. plaster moved back into RI from CT in the early '80's.. there were a lot of old timers in the trade but they had been squeezed out by drywall after the war...
now skim-coat dominates wall finish in RI
good to meet youMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You thinking of moving to VA?
Jon Blakemore
only if i can move next door to you , jon
how's northern neck sound ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm close to the Northern Neck. My wife's aunt is selling a house in the Kilmarnock area.I'm remembering now that you have family in the area, am I right?
Jon Blakemore
my brother is in Mt. Holly... he just bought some river front land in HeathsvilleMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Where can you buy d-mix. I looked on the Sherman Williams web site and could not find it.
thanks
Is that like south of Fredericksburg area? Northern Neck Is that off the Potomic?
My dad is retiring around Calleo.
SE of Frederickburg, between the Potomac and the Rappahannock rivers.Callao is right in the center of the N. Neck.
Jon Blakemore