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Discussion Forum

Playing catch up

JerraldHayes | Posted in Business on February 4, 2003 05:08am

So what do ya do to play catch up when your projects fall behind schedule?

I was wondering what kinds of strategies does everyone out there employee to try and get their projects back on schedule when they inevitably fall behind. I’m actually thinking proactively and preemptively here since since right now we are actually on schedule with everything we have going. We do however have a GC client that is behind schedule and has postponed our phases for two months now. They obviously have some problems going on but in the end when they finally get going our company could be the one that pays the price since their new project schedule will probably put us right on top of another one of ours (just seems to happen every spring).

So what do you people out there do? I’m interested in hearing from both the GC point of view and from the subcontractor or trade contractor position.


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“Function is based on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use.”- Sarah Susanka
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Replies

  1. BobKovacs | Feb 04, 2003 05:40am | #1

    Jerry-

    Are you talking about falling behind, as in what you're doing with that Filemaker program you keep promising me? LOL

    Sorry bud, had to put that dig in.....lol

    Bob

  2. Schelling | Feb 04, 2003 06:14am | #2

    As a GC we try to have everything ready for our subs and we try to keep them informed as the schedule changes. We also are very reluctant to give the homeowner any promises other than the promise that we will work steadily on their project until it is complete.  We are sometimes delayed by a sub's unavailibility but usually we can shift our workers to another area of the project to keep moving forward. This is really much easier for the GC than it is for a sub who has to fit into a very specific slot and is dependent on previous work being completed. After all, we will be on a large project for six to eight months and any one sub might be there for a couple of weeks.  I sympathize with you. There is probably nothing that you can do about catching up. Somebody will just have to wait for you and learn to be flexible.

    1. JerraldHayes | Feb 05, 2003 12:15am | #3

      SCHELLINGM that sounds very reasonable and it may be somewhat indicative of

      the general difference in the pace of our two regions (you being upstate NY

      and me being the NY metro area) that there aren't many contractors around here

      to approach things quite that way. I know from one very large project that

      I was on in Manhattan a while back that the builders were incredibly anxious

      to finish on a certain schedule because the interest alone on their projects

      financing was costing them thousands.

      One of the things I guess I'm wondering about is do any of you GCs out there

      ever ask for Acceleration? Ever ask (or require) your subs to work weekends

      or put extra people on your project and if so how did you approach it and

      deal with it.

      Same question for any subcontractors out there too. Ever have a supervising

      GC ask you to speed things up?

      View Image

      "Function is based

      on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka

      1. Brudoggie | Feb 05, 2003 03:22am | #4

        Generally speaking,most delays for me as a GC are my own fault. This is usually the result in agreeing to changes in the scope of work, after begining the job. As far as my subs, I'm usually pretty accomadating to their schedule, if it is only a short time. We all have things come up that cause glitches in scheduling, at some point. If they delay things too long, they risk future work, and most are aware of this. I never commit to a hard schedule with a customer, and find most folks to be flexible to little delays, as long as they are kept informed. Personally, when I get behind, I work longer hours or weekends to help catch up. Sometimes, I bring in another small builder to help me with the work load. Toughest part is that most people think that their project has priority over everone elses. (See Jeff's post about the tile job) Sometimes we just have to say no to a project, if someone is getting impatient.

         Brudoggie

        1. Snort | Feb 05, 2003 06:24am | #5

          Jerrald, in the 30+ years I've been subbing carpentry work, I have yet to see a job that I've contracted start when it was supposed to. Some of our bids are a year in advance, and both the contractors and I know start dates are estimates at best. I have to keep my business going all the time, and the contractors I've chosen to do business with know I can't wait for their projects to start. I try to only work with people that appreciate this, and if they can wait for us to get there, they know we'll give them the best job we can because we're not worried about getting to the next one. We do try to make every client feel like they are our most important customer. Thing is, they are.

          And, if you're not playing catch up, you're trying to bring up the rear...I'd rather be catching up 'cause I'm in demand, than taking work because I've got none.

          just my take... EliphIno!

          1. JerraldHayes | Feb 05, 2003 07:59am | #7

            BB-As I just alluded too this subject sort of popped up simultaneously here

            and on JLC a while ago and at that time I wrote in the Holding

            a sub to a schedule discussion here:

            Some of the things I saw looking at my project records were that:

            When we receive 'the call"* from a GC that they want us to start

            our phase of the project we are only able to start on-time in the eyes

            of the GC just less than 50% of the time.

            We are only able to complete our jobs on-time in our eyes 35% of the

            time. By "on-time in our eyes" I mean if we say the project is

            going to take three weeks for us from start to finish and we finish three

            weeks after starting then we accurately predicted how long it would take

            us and we were on-time.

            Since I began recording the scheduling information in my databases

            in the last two years 100% of the starting points that GCs originally

            scheduled for us as starting points have not been met. In other

            words in that time period no GC has ever given us an accurate prediction

            of a starting date. While I don't have the statistics for it the to the

            best of my memory the last time I recall a GC accurately predicting when

            they would be ready for us within their schedule was in 1997.

            Does that third point sound familiar?

            Ya know with respect to #1 we start on-time less than 50% of the time due

            to the fact of #3. And the same thing applies to #2 too since due to the peaks

            and valleys in our scheduling we sometimes find ourselves thinned out on some

            projects while having more personnel than we want or need on some others.

             

            View Image

            "Function is based

            on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka

        2. JerraldHayes | Feb 05, 2003 07:56am | #6

          Brudoggie-"most delays for me as a GC are my own

          fault. This is usually the result in

          agreeing to changes in the scope of work, after begining the job." well

          that's not really "your fault" in that it's really all part of the client-contractor

          relationship but ya know what I find interesting? It may be too small a sample

          for me to really

          make a real judgemnt on this but I think the FHB BreakTime crowd is a lot more

          honest and willing to share the blame and responsibility for construction delays

          that the JLC forum crowd. I just think that the message I've gotten from the

          GCs

          over there is that "subs are causing all the delays". I really don't think I've

          ever heard a GC over there say the delays were their fault or even say that they

          share the blame (at least until I've called it to their attention that they are

          part of the problem too).

          View Image

          "Function is based

          on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka

      2. Schelling | Feb 06, 2003 05:14am | #10

        I'm sure you are right about the pace of work in metro NY though some of our customers are the same folks. There are not a lot of GC's or subs to choose from around here, not if you want competent people. Because of that, people wait. The best subs and the ones that do the most specialized work are busy all the time. We try to work around their schedule.

        Our most recent project is a small office building. Our electrician was wiring the first floor while we were framing the roof. He was drilling the studs in a knee wall before we had the sheathing on. We didn't have to wait a minute for him. Our drywall taper has been working weekends and nights to stay ahead of us. On the other hand, our plumbers have been doing service calls for most of the past month, combating the sub-zero temps. We have been waiting on them. This time of year it wouldn't do any good for them to work on the weekends. They already are.

        Jerrald- You probably have more leverage with the GC than you think. The simple fact that you are concerned with the schedule puts you one up on the competition. That and the quality of your work will make you the one that the GC will wait for. Anything else the GC says is probably just bluster.

        1. JerraldHayes | Feb 07, 2003 01:14am | #13

          Schelling one of the GCs I work for once commented to another sub about how I was applying a lot of leverage to him to keep things on schedule. It was good to hear that in a way but was he complimenting me or was he using that as a way of applying leverage to that particular sub? We've talked about this together and I think he knows I am just trying to create team that talks to each other in order to get the project done.

          View Image

          "Function is based

          on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka

  3. User avater
    BossHog | Feb 05, 2003 06:09pm | #8

    As a supplier, maybe I don't fit into the catagory of people whom you are asking for input from. But I deal with delays all the time, so I thought I'd throw in some input.

    Seems like as a truss supplier, we never get trusses out when the contracors want them. Some of that is poor planning/scheduling, and some of it is the fault of the contractors themselves.

    One of the funniest stories I recall regarding trusses was a guy who walked in one day and ordered some trusses. He asked how far out we were on trusses, and he was told about 2 weeks. Exactly 2 weeks later, he called at 7am to ask what time the trusses would be there that day. The plant manager explained that we were a bit behind schedule, and hadn't gotten them built yet. (That was partly true - He was also small potatoes, and the owner didn't really care about the guy too)

    The contractor went ballistic - Screaming that he had to have the trusses immediately. Not tommorrow, today. He hung up on the plant manager, and showed up on our doorstep a short time later. He was very upset, and was really belligerent. He wrote out a check on the spot for the trusses, apparently thinking if he paid for them we would bring them out immediately. After listening to his abuse for a while, the plant manager finally said: "Why is it so important that you have your trusses TODAY?"

    The guy said: "We already tore the old roof off the house!"

    The owner ended up feeling sorry for the homeowners, and had the plant build the trusses that evening and deliver them the next morning. Then the contractor's check bounced. Don't know if the company ever got paid or not.

    My point isn't to say that all contractors are as dumb as this guy. It's ridiculous to tear the old roof off of an existing house without double-checking to see if the trusses have been built. A little communication would go a long way towards solving/preventing problems.

    Contractors get behind too, and forget to tell us. About once a week we show up with a crane and a load of trusses, only to find that the contractor decided to send his crews elsewhere and didn't bother to tell us. (Once we even showed up with trusses to find that the house already had a roof on - The contractor ordered trusses from 2 places, and took the ones that got there first. Then he claimed he hadn't really ordered them from us)

    Again, communication would help out a great deal. Keeping up with what's going on with subs and suppliers helps a lot.

    Ordering your stuff with enough lead time also helps. Don't know of many suppliers who 100% tell the truth about their lead times. Truss companies certainly don't. And they get behind schedule, like everybody else. If the company is 2 weeks out, order them 3 weeks ahead of time. We sometimes don't get calls from contractors until they're framing the walls. I always tell them to call when they break ground.

    .

    Don't know if these are the type of thoughts you were looking for. But these are the things I deal with on a regular basis that make a difference in schedules.

    Sign in the window of a Kentucky appliance store: "Don't kill your wife. Let our washing machine do the dirty work."

    1. JerraldHayes | Feb 07, 2003 01:11am | #11

      Boss as a supplier you are very important if not just as important to a topic

      like this. This is really all about Supply Chain Management. I am sure there

      are plenty of people here who have dabbled into reading Business Week Fast

      Company Inc or any of the other business rags and have seen the acronym SCM

      and just figured "it was part of some other industry, not ours".

      In fact you rarely ever see us using or thinking in the terminology that so

      much of the

      rest of the business world uses. Value Chain, Customer Relationship Management

      (CRM), Channels, etc. but I guess those are all possible topics for other

      discussions.

      Anyway I am very interested in whatever insight you can provide from the supplier

      perspective. The archetype of the story you told seems typical of many

      other situations I've both seen and/or heard about. I'm actually working towards

      getting at something here with this topic so I wanted to ask a few questions

      that there may or may not be answers to.

      When you told this contractor you could turn out his order in "about

      2 weeks"

      and he came back for them in "exactly 2 weeks" what really happened?

      Did your people tell him in "about 2 weeks" because they felt that

      was what they needed to tell him to close the order. Telling him what

      he wanted to hear. Gee how often does that particular situational

      archetype appear? It used to be that I'd get that one a couple of times a day!

      "Exactly 2 weeks later, he called at 7am to ask

      what time the trusses would be there that day. The plant manager explained

      that we were a bit behind schedule, and hadn't gotten them built yet. (That

      was partly true - He was also small potatoes, and the owner didn't really care

      about the guy too) "

      Did you guys fall behind schedule? Or were you guys always behind schedule

      and your sales staff was just not getting the correct information from the

      production people to make accurate and/or correct delivery schedules.?

      The small potatoes thing, well that really shouldn't

      matter and I don't mean that from a moralistic point of view although

      that counts too.

      "The contractor went ballistic - Screaming that

      he had to have the trusses immediately. Not tommorrow, today. He hung up

      on the plant manager, and showed

      up on our

      doorstep a short time later. He was very upset, and was really belligerent.

      He wrote out a check on the spot for the trusses, apparently thinking if he

      paid for them we would bring them out immediately.

      Do you think that

      he thought they were ready and you just didn't have the capacity ( the trucks

      available) to ship them or did he understand that they hadn't even been assembled

      yet?

      After listening to his abuse

      for a while, the plant manager finally said: "Why is it so important

      that you have your trusses TODAY?" The guy said: "We already

      tore the old roof off the house!" Well that just indicates to

      me that particular contractor didn't have a real grasp on reality, but there

      is a real obvious flaw in the Supply Chain Management system here. Why wasn't

      he talking to you or your company talking to him the day before this roof was

      scheduled to come off? What does your company do to communicate and

      update the status of your clients orders? That maybe the key big aristotelian

      question we all need to answer to make improvements to the

      whole system don't you think?

      You know when I get a call on Friday that the project were are planning to

      start on Monday wont be ready for us that information is 98% of the time too

      late to help us and I am sure too that when we've provided that information

      late to others that were counting on us it didn't do them any good either.

      The owner ended up feeling sorry for the homeowners,

      and had the plant build the trusses that evening and deliver them the next

      morning. Then the contractor's

      check bounced. Don't know if the company ever got paid or not. Regardless

      of whether or not your company got paid even if you got your money you probably

      lost money expediting the order due to having to schedule the additional shift

      work or overtime. Would I be correct on that?

      My point isn't to say that all contractors are as dumb

      as this guy. It's ridiculous to tear the old roof off of an existing house

      without double-checking to see

      if the trusses have been built. A little communication would go a long way

      towards solving/preventing problems. Yeah that's very true but who should

      be doing the communication? Maybe he was expecting you folks to call him if you

      were

      going to be late while all along you were expecting him to call you to see

      of you were ready. I was impressed a while back when I outsourced a the fabrication

      of the stair part of one of our stair projects to a major national fabricator

      (Arcways)

      so we could deal with exclusively with the railing/balustrade. They used to call

      me just to tell me that they were on schedule and the week before the scheduled

      delivery date they called us and went over all the arrangements regarding the

      delivery checking to see just how we wanted to do things. While I was incredibly

      impressed with the quality of their product I was probably even more impressed

      with the quality of service and attention I got.

      And while they were working on the stair we were working on the balustrade

      in our shop and we would publish photos of the work in progress to our website

      so that the GC, the interior designers, the engineer, and the owner-end-user-client

      could track the progress too.

      Contractors get behind too, and forget to tell us. About

      once a week we show up with a crane and a load of trusses, only to find that

      the contractor decided

      to send his crews elsewhere and didn't bother to tell us. Well I am sure

      you know that's just as bad but once again if there was a better paradigm in

      place

      regarding communication maybe that could have been avoided too.

      The project I mentioned

      above well, we ended up starting that installation a week or so later than

      we originally had wanted to because we showed showed up on the job in front

      of that one ready to

      install another stair system only to find that that GC hadn't finished the

      framing for

      a balcony and landing that was critical to our installation. That cost us 4

      man days of productivity that first day there and then two and a half days

      in our schedule and as you might have heard some others say

      (because I know I'm not the only one who says it) "it only takes

      a day to fall a week behind schedule".

      Ordering your stuff with enough lead time also helps.

      Does it? There is a lot of real statistical evidence to say that not necessarily

      true.

      Parkinson’s Law--“Work expands

      to fill the time available for its

      completion.”

      and Parkinson's

      Law 2--"Work expands to fill (and often exceed) the time allowed."

      and what's known as

      Student Syndrome--"Student syndrome is waiting to start

      on a task until the deliverable is immanent."

      Don't know of

      many suppliers who 100% tell the truth about their lead times Truss companies

      certainly

      don't.

      And they get behind schedule, like everybody else. If the company is 2

      weeks out, order them 3 weeks ahead of time. Well

      the question there might be what is the truth? My ordering anything two

      weeks early because I expect to get it two weeks late isn't going to really

      cut the waste in the system and sometimes starting a project later can actually

      result in an earlier finish. Intuitively that sounds impossible and crazy

      but it's

      true.

      I not sure anyone's picked up where I was going with all this but I'm leading

      into some questions regarding application of what known as the Theory of Constraints.

      The Theory of Constraints (TOC) is a philosophy of management and improvement

      originally developed by Eliyahu M. Goldratt and introduced in his book, The

      Goal: A Process of Ongoing Improvement. It's popped here a couple

      of time of that last few years and it popped up again over on JLC recently

      too. Have you read it or ever heard of it? Or

      how about it cousin Critical

      Chain also by Goldratt? Coincidently another stair builder who I

      have

      been

      talking

      about The Theory of Constraints with,

      Bill Amaya of Cimarron

      Lofting

      aka Sunvalleywood.com just

      the other day over on JLC said

      "His scheduling book "Critical

      Chain" is

      simply the best book I

      have read on the subject." and I think I would have to agree with him on

      that

      one.

      If I'm not mistaken I'm pretty sure Adrian Wilson has commneted on it in the

      past here and I know this past fall  Jon Blakemore said he

      "...just finished reading The Goal  and really enjoyed it."  I

      think it would be profitable to get an informal book club going here.  The

      printed word can be so extrememly valuable in all facets of life, and we

      would be amiss

      to ignore it's power and influence on our respective ventures.

      The Goal by Goldratt-  Fiction style, a story about a manufacturing plant

      whose crisis proved to be a great opportunity.  With the application of

      the scientific method and common sense the characters discover that they have

      been operating on faulty assumptions all along.  When these are removed,

      the goal of the business is realized.  Don't think it just applies

      to a factory.  We can all learn from it.

      Don't know if these are the type of thoughts you were

      looking for. Actually Boss you comments and candor were very much

      along the lines of what I was looking for. I think you did a good job of

      exposing one of the classic archetypal problems we all encounter with that

      story you told. Thanks. Hopefully you'll stir things up a little with that.

      Ya know Boss following one of the link I had posted in response to Jon Blakemores

      comments regarding the Goal I saw something I said back in August on this subject

      "GCs have problems with subs and as sub we have problems with

      GCs but we don't

      seem at all to be working together to solve them." I'm out here trying

      to solicit comments, ideas

      and examples of real world situations and problems becasue I'm making my litle

      effort to

      try

      and figure out and solve the problem.

      View Image

      "Function is based

      on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka

      Edited 2/6/2003 5:18:12 PM ET by Jerrald Hayes

      1. User avater
        BossHog | Feb 07, 2003 02:30am | #14

        Dang, you sure opened up Pandora's box here. Let me see if I can hit on a few of your points:

        "When you told this contractor you could turn out his order in "about 2 weeks" and he came back for them in "exactly 2 weeks" what really happened?"

        I don't recall that incident perfectly, so let me just address situations like this in general.

        First - Truss companies often lie about their lead times. I've been told specifically by owners not to tell customers exactly what our lead times were. Often the owner keeps this to himself, and the employees don't even know what the truth is. Sometimes when I've attempted to tell customers the truth, they call up and complain to the owner about it, which ends up getting me in trouble.

        Sometimes - The customer just hears what he wants to hear. If you tell them "about 2 weeks", they think the things should be there exactly then. Some contractors seem to like playing the victim - They'll wait until the night before they claim to be expecting their trusses. Then they try to make us out to be the bad guy, threaten to backchage for delays, etc. They won't call 3 or 4 days ahead, so they can adjust their schedule as needed.

        "Did you guys fall behind schedule? Or were you guys always behind schedule and your sales staff was just not getting the correct information from the production people to make accurate and/or correct delivery schedules.?"

        There are several things that typically happen when truss plants are pressed. First, the owners assume that since they are under a lot of pressure, that the plant can kick out more production. That's not generally the case.

        Second, stuff happens. Equipment breakdowns, people not showing up or calling in sick, etc. Not much the truss plants can do about that.

        Third, There are always things that have to be squeezed into the schedule. Rush jobs are a fact of life. Truss plants, salesmen, and customers make mistakes. They have to be fixed, and pronto.

        Then there are "forgotten jobs'. A lumberyard calls in to schedule delivery for a set of trusses that they forgot to order. Or an order gets paper clipped behind another one and overlooked, etc. All these things have to be dealt with, and cause the production schedules to fall behind.

        "The small potatoes thing, well that really shouldn't matter..."

        I agree - Unless you tell the customer up front that their job isn't a priority. But it's fact of life that truss plant owners and managers have "pet" customers that get taken care of first. I wasn't saying it was right - Just typical.

        "........who should be doing the communication? "

        I don't think that should fall on one side. In the (Extreme) case I brought up, I think the contractor should have said up front that it was a tear-off job. That would have made it clear that the delivery schedule was important. Most plants that I've worked at would have taken that pretty seriously. (I've worked for 5) Then the contractor should have followed up with a phone call before he tore the old roof off. On the flip side, the truss company should have been more specific with the customer on what "about 2 weeks" meant. And I'm sure any contractor would appreciate a phone call if things weren't going well.

        "Ordering your stuff with enough lead time also helps.""Does it? There is a lot of real statistical evidence to say that not necessarily true."

        I can't say that I think it would be true for every supplier. But I said that primarily from the perspective of the truss supplier.

        First, I would say order them with adequate lead time. If the plant is 2 weeks out, don't wait until you're framing walls to order them.

        Second, I would say to lie a bit about when you'll need them. If you want them June 10th, tell them you want them June 8th. The when the schedule gets a bit behind, you can push them off a couple of says. It's much easier to delay a delivery a couple of says than to push production up during busy times.

        One thing that may help regarding trusses is to keep in mind that production is virtually always the bottleneck. Sometimes the trusses go straight from the stackers to the trucks for delivery. Rarely is there anything else that hold things up.

        "GCs have problems with subs (Or suppliers) and as sub we have problems with GCs but we don't seem at all to be working together to solve them."

        I wouldn't have any problem agreeing with that. Don't really know what the answer is. I always try to tell customers the truth. But when they tell my boss what I said, and it comes back to bite me on the butt, it doesn't exactly make me want to tell them the truth again.

        Glad you thought my comments were helpful. I'll be glad to discuss it more if you like.Blessed are the censors; they shall inhibit the earth.

  4. Mooney | Feb 05, 2003 06:11pm | #9

    Two points;

    One contractor I know uses nearly all subs. You might do one house for him but the next is not quarenteed. He tries to use 5 subs of each description. Ive seen two competing subs on the same job completing different functions. If you dont show up on time he will use you to finish that job, but you will be moved to the back of the line the next time as a reserve. Same thing as not showing up a number of days after you start. He doesnt buddy with a sub, which is not normal practice. Hes very much on the up and up. Very honest and very hard headed.  He pays a draw every Thursday on work completed as he figgures it. A check is stuffed in your shirt pocket as your working , you never have to ask for payment. He pays on the spot at completion. He asks for a 6 day week if he is in a bind. He pays a bonus via overtime , to reward results. Hes the best I know at getting jobs complete.

    I worked 7-8s or 5-10s for him to be at the top of the list. The reason was the amount of no worry for payment work. He would keep the top two busy if you could show up and perform. In my trade , I needed volume. He provided it and paid those bonuses. <G>

    Tim Mooney

    1. JerraldHayes | Feb 07, 2003 01:12am | #12

      Tim when you say the contractor you know "tries

      to use 5 subs of each description." are you saying he tries to use 5 INDIVIDUALS hired as independent

      contractors for each trade or that he tries to hire 5 COMPANIES for each trade?

      I suspect you are talking about the former correct?

      View Image

      "Function is based

      on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka

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  • Issue 331 - June 2025
    • A More Resilient Roof
    • Tool Test: You Need a Drywall Sander
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    • Deck Details for Durability
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