So what do ya do to play catch up when your projects fall behind schedule?
I was wondering what kinds of strategies does everyone out there employee to try and get their projects back on schedule when they inevitably fall behind. I’m actually thinking proactively and preemptively here since since right now we are actually on schedule with everything we have going. We do however have a GC client that is behind schedule and has postponed our phases for two months now. They obviously have some problems going on but in the end when they finally get going our company could be the one that pays the price since their new project schedule will probably put us right on top of another one of ours (just seems to happen every spring).
So what do you people out there do? I’m interested in hearing from both the GC point of view and from the subcontractor or trade contractor position.
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“Function is based on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use.”- Sarah Susanka
Replies
Jerry-
Are you talking about falling behind, as in what you're doing with that Filemaker program you keep promising me? LOL
Sorry bud, had to put that dig in.....lol
Bob
As a GC we try to have everything ready for our subs and we try to keep them informed as the schedule changes. We also are very reluctant to give the homeowner any promises other than the promise that we will work steadily on their project until it is complete. We are sometimes delayed by a sub's unavailibility but usually we can shift our workers to another area of the project to keep moving forward. This is really much easier for the GC than it is for a sub who has to fit into a very specific slot and is dependent on previous work being completed. After all, we will be on a large project for six to eight months and any one sub might be there for a couple of weeks. I sympathize with you. There is probably nothing that you can do about catching up. Somebody will just have to wait for you and learn to be flexible.
SCHELLINGM that sounds very reasonable and it may be somewhat indicative of
the general difference in the pace of our two regions (you being upstate NY
and me being the NY metro area) that there aren't many contractors around here
to approach things quite that way. I know from one very large project that
I was on in Manhattan a while back that the builders were incredibly anxious
to finish on a certain schedule because the interest alone on their projects
financing was costing them thousands.
One of the things I guess I'm wondering about is do any of you GCs out there
ever ask for Acceleration? Ever ask (or require) your subs to work weekends
or put extra people on your project and if so how did you approach it and
deal with it.
Same question for any subcontractors out there too. Ever have a supervising
GC ask you to speed things up?
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"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
Generally speaking,most delays for me as a GC are my own fault. This is usually the result in agreeing to changes in the scope of work, after begining the job. As far as my subs, I'm usually pretty accomadating to their schedule, if it is only a short time. We all have things come up that cause glitches in scheduling, at some point. If they delay things too long, they risk future work, and most are aware of this. I never commit to a hard schedule with a customer, and find most folks to be flexible to little delays, as long as they are kept informed. Personally, when I get behind, I work longer hours or weekends to help catch up. Sometimes, I bring in another small builder to help me with the work load. Toughest part is that most people think that their project has priority over everone elses. (See Jeff's post about the tile job) Sometimes we just have to say no to a project, if someone is getting impatient.
Brudoggie
Jerrald, in the 30+ years I've been subbing carpentry work, I have yet to see a job that I've contracted start when it was supposed to. Some of our bids are a year in advance, and both the contractors and I know start dates are estimates at best. I have to keep my business going all the time, and the contractors I've chosen to do business with know I can't wait for their projects to start. I try to only work with people that appreciate this, and if they can wait for us to get there, they know we'll give them the best job we can because we're not worried about getting to the next one. We do try to make every client feel like they are our most important customer. Thing is, they are.
And, if you're not playing catch up, you're trying to bring up the rear...I'd rather be catching up 'cause I'm in demand, than taking work because I've got none.
just my take... EliphIno!
BB-As I just alluded too this subject sort of popped up simultaneously here
and on JLC a while ago and at that time I wrote in the Holding
a sub to a schedule discussion here:
Does that third point sound familiar?
Ya know with respect to #1 we start on-time less than 50% of the time due
to the fact of #3. And the same thing applies to #2 too since due to the peaks
and valleys in our scheduling we sometimes find ourselves thinned out on some
projects while having more personnel than we want or need on some others.
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"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
Brudoggie-"most delays for me as a GC are my own
fault. This is usually the result in
agreeing to changes in the scope of work, after begining the job." well
that's not really "your fault" in that it's really all part of the client-contractor
relationship but ya know what I find interesting? It may be too small a sample
for me to really
make a real judgemnt on this but I think the FHB BreakTime crowd is a lot more
honest and willing to share the blame and responsibility for construction delays
that the JLC forum crowd. I just think that the message I've gotten from the
GCs
over there is that "subs are causing all the delays". I really don't think I've
ever heard a GC over there say the delays were their fault or even say that they
share the blame (at least until I've called it to their attention that they are
part of the problem too).
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"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
I'm sure you are right about the pace of work in metro NY though some of our customers are the same folks. There are not a lot of GC's or subs to choose from around here, not if you want competent people. Because of that, people wait. The best subs and the ones that do the most specialized work are busy all the time. We try to work around their schedule.
Our most recent project is a small office building. Our electrician was wiring the first floor while we were framing the roof. He was drilling the studs in a knee wall before we had the sheathing on. We didn't have to wait a minute for him. Our drywall taper has been working weekends and nights to stay ahead of us. On the other hand, our plumbers have been doing service calls for most of the past month, combating the sub-zero temps. We have been waiting on them. This time of year it wouldn't do any good for them to work on the weekends. They already are.
Jerrald- You probably have more leverage with the GC than you think. The simple fact that you are concerned with the schedule puts you one up on the competition. That and the quality of your work will make you the one that the GC will wait for. Anything else the GC says is probably just bluster.
Schelling one of the GCs I work for once commented to another sub about how I was applying a lot of leverage to him to keep things on schedule. It was good to hear that in a way but was he complimenting me or was he using that as a way of applying leverage to that particular sub? We've talked about this together and I think he knows I am just trying to create team that talks to each other in order to get the project done.
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"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
As a supplier, maybe I don't fit into the catagory of people whom you are asking for input from. But I deal with delays all the time, so I thought I'd throw in some input.
Seems like as a truss supplier, we never get trusses out when the contracors want them. Some of that is poor planning/scheduling, and some of it is the fault of the contractors themselves.
One of the funniest stories I recall regarding trusses was a guy who walked in one day and ordered some trusses. He asked how far out we were on trusses, and he was told about 2 weeks. Exactly 2 weeks later, he called at 7am to ask what time the trusses would be there that day. The plant manager explained that we were a bit behind schedule, and hadn't gotten them built yet. (That was partly true - He was also small potatoes, and the owner didn't really care about the guy too)
The contractor went ballistic - Screaming that he had to have the trusses immediately. Not tommorrow, today. He hung up on the plant manager, and showed up on our doorstep a short time later. He was very upset, and was really belligerent. He wrote out a check on the spot for the trusses, apparently thinking if he paid for them we would bring them out immediately. After listening to his abuse for a while, the plant manager finally said: "Why is it so important that you have your trusses TODAY?"
The guy said: "We already tore the old roof off the house!"
The owner ended up feeling sorry for the homeowners, and had the plant build the trusses that evening and deliver them the next morning. Then the contractor's check bounced. Don't know if the company ever got paid or not.
My point isn't to say that all contractors are as dumb as this guy. It's ridiculous to tear the old roof off of an existing house without double-checking to see if the trusses have been built. A little communication would go a long way towards solving/preventing problems.
Contractors get behind too, and forget to tell us. About once a week we show up with a crane and a load of trusses, only to find that the contractor decided to send his crews elsewhere and didn't bother to tell us. (Once we even showed up with trusses to find that the house already had a roof on - The contractor ordered trusses from 2 places, and took the ones that got there first. Then he claimed he hadn't really ordered them from us)
Again, communication would help out a great deal. Keeping up with what's going on with subs and suppliers helps a lot.
Ordering your stuff with enough lead time also helps. Don't know of many suppliers who 100% tell the truth about their lead times. Truss companies certainly don't. And they get behind schedule, like everybody else. If the company is 2 weeks out, order them 3 weeks ahead of time. We sometimes don't get calls from contractors until they're framing the walls. I always tell them to call when they break ground.
.
Don't know if these are the type of thoughts you were looking for. But these are the things I deal with on a regular basis that make a difference in schedules.
Sign in the window of a Kentucky appliance store: "Don't kill your wife. Let our washing machine do the dirty work."
Boss as a supplier you are very important if not just as important to a topic
like this. This is really all about Supply Chain Management. I am sure there
are plenty of people here who have dabbled into reading Business Week Fast
Company Inc or any of the other business rags and have seen the acronym SCM
and just figured "it was part of some other industry, not ours".
In fact you rarely ever see us using or thinking in the terminology that so
much of the
rest of the business world uses. Value Chain, Customer Relationship Management
(CRM), Channels, etc. but I guess those are all possible topics for other
discussions.
Anyway I am very interested in whatever insight you can provide from the supplier
perspective. The archetype of the story you told seems typical of many
other situations I've both seen and/or heard about. I'm actually working towards
getting at something here with this topic so I wanted to ask a few questions
that there may or may not be answers to.
When you told this contractor you could turn out his order in "about
2 weeks"
and he came back for them in "exactly 2 weeks" what really happened?
Did your people tell him in "about 2 weeks" because they felt that
was what they needed to tell him to close the order. Telling him what
he wanted to hear. Gee how often does that particular situational
archetype appear? It used to be that I'd get that one a couple of times a day!
"Exactly 2 weeks later, he called at 7am to ask
what time the trusses would be there that day. The plant manager explained
that we were a bit behind schedule, and hadn't gotten them built yet. (That
was partly true - He was also small potatoes, and the owner didn't really care
about the guy too) "
Did you guys fall behind schedule? Or were you guys always behind schedule
and your sales staff was just not getting the correct information from the
production people to make accurate and/or correct delivery schedules.?
The small potatoes thing, well that really shouldn't
matter and I don't mean that from a moralistic point of view although
that counts too.
"The contractor went ballistic - Screaming that
he had to have the trusses immediately. Not tommorrow, today. He hung up
on the plant manager, and showed
up on our
doorstep a short time later. He was very upset, and was really belligerent.
He wrote out a check on the spot for the trusses, apparently thinking if he
paid for them we would bring them out immediately.
Do you think that
he thought they were ready and you just didn't have the capacity ( the trucks
available) to ship them or did he understand that they hadn't even been assembled
yet?
After listening to his abuse
for a while, the plant manager finally said: "Why is it so important
that you have your trusses TODAY?" The guy said: "We already
tore the old roof off the house!" Well that just indicates to
me that particular contractor didn't have a real grasp on reality, but there
is a real obvious flaw in the Supply Chain Management system here. Why wasn't
he talking to you or your company talking to him the day before this roof was
scheduled to come off? What does your company do to communicate and
update the status of your clients orders? That maybe the key big aristotelian
question we all need to answer to make improvements to the
whole system don't you think?
You know when I get a call on Friday that the project were are planning to
start on Monday wont be ready for us that information is 98% of the time too
late to help us and I am sure too that when we've provided that information
late to others that were counting on us it didn't do them any good either.
The owner ended up feeling sorry for the homeowners,
and had the plant build the trusses that evening and deliver them the next
morning. Then the contractor's
check bounced. Don't know if the company ever got paid or not. Regardless
of whether or not your company got paid even if you got your money you probably
lost money expediting the order due to having to schedule the additional shift
work or overtime. Would I be correct on that?
My point isn't to say that all contractors are as dumb
as this guy. It's ridiculous to tear the old roof off of an existing house
without double-checking to see
if the trusses have been built. A little communication would go a long way
towards solving/preventing problems. Yeah that's very true but who should
be doing the communication? Maybe he was expecting you folks to call him if you
were
going to be late while all along you were expecting him to call you to see
of you were ready. I was impressed a while back when I outsourced a the fabrication
of the stair part of one of our stair projects to a major national fabricator
(Arcways)
so we could deal with exclusively with the railing/balustrade. They used to call
me just to tell me that they were on schedule and the week before the scheduled
delivery date they called us and went over all the arrangements regarding the
delivery checking to see just how we wanted to do things. While I was incredibly
impressed with the quality of their product I was probably even more impressed
with the quality of service and attention I got.
And while they were working on the stair we were working on the balustrade
in our shop and we would publish photos of the work in progress to our website
so that the GC, the interior designers, the engineer, and the owner-end-user-client
could track the progress too.
Contractors get behind too, and forget to tell us. About
once a week we show up with a crane and a load of trusses, only to find that
the contractor decided
to send his crews elsewhere and didn't bother to tell us. Well I am sure
you know that's just as bad but once again if there was a better paradigm in
place
regarding communication maybe that could have been avoided too.
The project I mentioned
above well, we ended up starting that installation a week or so later than
we originally had wanted to because we showed showed up on the job in front
of that one ready to
install another stair system only to find that that GC hadn't finished the
framing for
a balcony and landing that was critical to our installation. That cost us 4
man days of productivity that first day there and then two and a half days
in our schedule and as you might have heard some others say
(because I know I'm not the only one who says it) "it only takes
a day to fall a week behind schedule".
Ordering your stuff with enough lead time also helps.
Does it? There is a lot of real statistical evidence to say that not necessarily
true.
Parkinson’s Law--“Work expands
to fill the time available for its
completion.”
and Parkinson's
Law 2--"Work expands to fill (and often exceed) the time allowed."
and what's known as
Student Syndrome--"Student syndrome is waiting to start
on a task until the deliverable is immanent."
Don't know of
many suppliers who 100% tell the truth about their lead times Truss companies
certainly
don't.
And they get behind schedule, like everybody else. If the company is 2
weeks out, order them 3 weeks ahead of time. Well
the question there might be what is the truth? My ordering anything two
weeks early because I expect to get it two weeks late isn't going to really
cut the waste in the system and sometimes starting a project later can actually
result in an earlier finish. Intuitively that sounds impossible and crazy
but it's
true.
I not sure anyone's picked up where I was going with all this but I'm leading
into some questions regarding application of what known as the Theory of Constraints.
The Theory of Constraints (TOC) is a philosophy of management and improvement
originally developed by Eliyahu M. Goldratt and introduced in his book, The
Goal: A Process of Ongoing Improvement. It's popped here a couple
of time of that last few years and it popped up again over on JLC recently
too. Have you read it or ever heard of it? Or
how about it cousin Critical
Chain also by Goldratt? Coincidently another stair builder who I
have
been
talking
about The Theory of Constraints with,
Bill Amaya of Cimarron
Lofting
aka Sunvalleywood.com just
the other day over on JLC said
"His scheduling book "Critical
Chain" is
simply the best book I
have read on the subject." and I think I would have to agree with him on
that
one.
If I'm not mistaken I'm pretty sure Adrian Wilson has commneted on it in the
past here and I know this past fall Jon Blakemore said he
Don't know if these are the type of thoughts you were
looking for. Actually Boss you comments and candor were very much
along the lines of what I was looking for. I think you did a good job of
exposing one of the classic archetypal problems we all encounter with that
story you told. Thanks. Hopefully you'll stir things up a little with that.
Ya know Boss following one of the link I had posted in response to Jon Blakemores
comments regarding the Goal I saw something I said back in August on this subject
"GCs have problems with subs and as sub we have problems with
GCs but we don't
seem at all to be working together to solve them." I'm out here trying
to solicit comments, ideas
and examples of real world situations and problems becasue I'm making my litle
effort to
try
and figure out and solve the problem.
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"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
Edited 2/6/2003 5:18:12 PM ET by Jerrald Hayes
Dang, you sure opened up Pandora's box here. Let me see if I can hit on a few of your points:
"When you told this contractor you could turn out his order in "about 2 weeks" and he came back for them in "exactly 2 weeks" what really happened?"
I don't recall that incident perfectly, so let me just address situations like this in general.
First - Truss companies often lie about their lead times. I've been told specifically by owners not to tell customers exactly what our lead times were. Often the owner keeps this to himself, and the employees don't even know what the truth is. Sometimes when I've attempted to tell customers the truth, they call up and complain to the owner about it, which ends up getting me in trouble.
Sometimes - The customer just hears what he wants to hear. If you tell them "about 2 weeks", they think the things should be there exactly then. Some contractors seem to like playing the victim - They'll wait until the night before they claim to be expecting their trusses. Then they try to make us out to be the bad guy, threaten to backchage for delays, etc. They won't call 3 or 4 days ahead, so they can adjust their schedule as needed.
"Did you guys fall behind schedule? Or were you guys always behind schedule and your sales staff was just not getting the correct information from the production people to make accurate and/or correct delivery schedules.?"
There are several things that typically happen when truss plants are pressed. First, the owners assume that since they are under a lot of pressure, that the plant can kick out more production. That's not generally the case.
Second, stuff happens. Equipment breakdowns, people not showing up or calling in sick, etc. Not much the truss plants can do about that.
Third, There are always things that have to be squeezed into the schedule. Rush jobs are a fact of life. Truss plants, salesmen, and customers make mistakes. They have to be fixed, and pronto.
Then there are "forgotten jobs'. A lumberyard calls in to schedule delivery for a set of trusses that they forgot to order. Or an order gets paper clipped behind another one and overlooked, etc. All these things have to be dealt with, and cause the production schedules to fall behind.
"The small potatoes thing, well that really shouldn't matter..."
I agree - Unless you tell the customer up front that their job isn't a priority. But it's fact of life that truss plant owners and managers have "pet" customers that get taken care of first. I wasn't saying it was right - Just typical.
"........who should be doing the communication? "
I don't think that should fall on one side. In the (Extreme) case I brought up, I think the contractor should have said up front that it was a tear-off job. That would have made it clear that the delivery schedule was important. Most plants that I've worked at would have taken that pretty seriously. (I've worked for 5) Then the contractor should have followed up with a phone call before he tore the old roof off. On the flip side, the truss company should have been more specific with the customer on what "about 2 weeks" meant. And I'm sure any contractor would appreciate a phone call if things weren't going well.
"Ordering your stuff with enough lead time also helps.""Does it? There is a lot of real statistical evidence to say that not necessarily true."
I can't say that I think it would be true for every supplier. But I said that primarily from the perspective of the truss supplier.
First, I would say order them with adequate lead time. If the plant is 2 weeks out, don't wait until you're framing walls to order them.
Second, I would say to lie a bit about when you'll need them. If you want them June 10th, tell them you want them June 8th. The when the schedule gets a bit behind, you can push them off a couple of says. It's much easier to delay a delivery a couple of says than to push production up during busy times.
One thing that may help regarding trusses is to keep in mind that production is virtually always the bottleneck. Sometimes the trusses go straight from the stackers to the trucks for delivery. Rarely is there anything else that hold things up.
"GCs have problems with subs (Or suppliers) and as sub we have problems with GCs but we don't seem at all to be working together to solve them."
I wouldn't have any problem agreeing with that. Don't really know what the answer is. I always try to tell customers the truth. But when they tell my boss what I said, and it comes back to bite me on the butt, it doesn't exactly make me want to tell them the truth again.
Glad you thought my comments were helpful. I'll be glad to discuss it more if you like.Blessed are the censors; they shall inhibit the earth.
Two points;
One contractor I know uses nearly all subs. You might do one house for him but the next is not quarenteed. He tries to use 5 subs of each description. Ive seen two competing subs on the same job completing different functions. If you dont show up on time he will use you to finish that job, but you will be moved to the back of the line the next time as a reserve. Same thing as not showing up a number of days after you start. He doesnt buddy with a sub, which is not normal practice. Hes very much on the up and up. Very honest and very hard headed. He pays a draw every Thursday on work completed as he figgures it. A check is stuffed in your shirt pocket as your working , you never have to ask for payment. He pays on the spot at completion. He asks for a 6 day week if he is in a bind. He pays a bonus via overtime , to reward results. Hes the best I know at getting jobs complete.
I worked 7-8s or 5-10s for him to be at the top of the list. The reason was the amount of no worry for payment work. He would keep the top two busy if you could show up and perform. In my trade , I needed volume. He provided it and paid those bonuses. <G>
Tim Mooney
Tim when you say the contractor you know "tries
to use 5 subs of each description." are you saying he tries to use 5 INDIVIDUALS hired as independent
contractors for each trade or that he tries to hire 5 COMPANIES for each trade?
I suspect you are talking about the former correct?
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"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka