Plugs and switches under upper cabinets?
kltzycrpntr
| Posted in General Discussion on
Has anyone seen or installed plugs and switches underneath upper kitchen cabinets? We’ll be building a house soon and installing a tile back splash with some type of accent pieces. We’re looking to get a clean look by not having plugs and switches in the back splash which can be very unsightly. As a last alternative we’ll have to come up with a design and use that as a guide when the plugs and switches are roughed in. But things don’t always go as planned so that’s why I’d like to get the electrical out of the way. Someone told me that this is somewhat of a common practice in certain areas of PA. I’m wondering how the finished product looks and how it is to use in everyday life? Thanks in advance
Replies
I've never done it, but dont' see why it can't be done. I have removed tons of those outlet strips that run tight up against the bottoms of the cabinets that have a receptacle every foot or so.
Hmmm, someone with more intimate knowledge of the code will chime in here, but you may be restricted in locations by the Small Appliance Circuit rules in the NEC.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
You'd need to have a false bottom in the cabinet.
> We're looking to get a clean look by not having plugs and switches in the back splash which can be very unsightly.
This is why designer kitchens have all those cutsie cannisters, etc.
To count as the required counter receptacles, the face of the receptacles can not be more than 18" above the counter.
The usual cabinet bottom is not deep enough to completely hide the electrical boxes. One way around this is to use a "plugmold" type of product.
This brings up anchoring the stuff. Again, your usual cabinet bottom is not thick enough to hold screws.
I already spoke with the building official and he told me I could do it. I figured I'd have to 'double' up the bottomof the cabinet for fastening the electrical boxes and having a 1X on edge with a decorative profile to hide the boxes.
Our plan is to use these along with some carefully selected cabinets:
http://tasklighting.com/ap/angle-strip.htm
New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
no, no, no...
Just rough-in the wires with no box and then have them exit a small hole in the drywall at roughly the height of the cabinet bottom when it is eventually installed. A little low is better then a little high.
Install a 1/2 depth box, pointing down, under the cabinet such that it covers the hole and the wire enters and exits through the side of the box against the wall. If the hole is too low, extend it up... the tile will cover.
Secure the box with small screws up into the bottom of the cabinet. The cabinet bottoms are usually 1/2 in... which is plenty. I use three 1/2in course pan head screws (the same ones I use for pocket holes when making the cabinets) into the bottoms of the upper cabinets. Plenty of holding power, but if you are concerned, add a small amount of construction adhesive.
It will look great and the tile guy will love that he need not work around the receptacles.
While you are at it.... make sure to run wiring for under-cabinet lighting.
I just finished a house for a customer where they had the same request. I used a WireMold product.
http://www.wiremold.com/www/consumer/products/plugmold/index.asp
I used the hardwired strip and tucked it into the top corner of the cabinet where it meets the wall. I had the cabinet guy build a dropped down face frame to help hide it. As far as switches I wired in some touch pads into the lights and concealed the pads behind cabinet doors. They work like a charm and the backsplash is very clean.
Someone said the usual cabinet bottoms were too thin to screw plugmould to. The way around that is to drill up through the plugmould, countersink from above, put in screw and nylock nut on bottom in the mould.
We install plugmolds under the upper cabinets all the time. Often we'll set them on a downward angle to make it easier to plug things in. I think code is 20" above the counter is ok.
We've also done plugmold across the top of a 4" or 6" backsplash.
It had crossed my mind to put the plugs and switches on a slight downward angle. does anyone have pictures of this in a finished kitchen?
Just a few reminders:A) Junction boxes need to remain accessible;B) The receptacles need to be GFCI protected somehow; and,C) I am not aware of 'plugmold' size switches.
Had to do it once where there was no other way to get a receptacle where it needed to be. We simply set a standard J-box in the bottom of the cabinet, ran EMT up the inside back of the cabinet to the top of the cabinet where the power source was. You could see the box and pipe inside the cabinet, but if it's done neatly, so what?BIll
) The receptacles need to be GFCI protected somehow; and
Only those within a specific distance of the sink. 4' comes to mind, but it could be 6'.
dave
Its all counter top sockets in a kitchen now to be gfci protected.
The remodel should meet current code rules. The latest version has all receptacles serving the counter-top GFCI protected, and wants there to be at least two circuits serving the counter as well. (That second part seems like over-kill, especially for a kitchen as small as mine .... but that's the rule).
The remodel should meet current code rules. The latest version has all receptacles serving the counter-top GFCI protected, and wants there to be at least two circuits serving the counter as well.
Looked up the GFCI requirement. Your right, however I find nothing that says there must be two circuits for counter top recepticals. Onlys says two small appliance circuits in the kitchen, location is not specified.
Dave
Keep looking :D 210.52(B)(3) Says "Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small appliance branch circuits ...."
Someplace I have some charts showing when and where gfci where required.IIRC the all counertops has been in affect since 96 cycle.But there is on local subburb that amended the 2003 IRC to only require GFCI next to the sink..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thank for all the suggestions. My question wasn't really aimed at the building codes. But I do realize they play a major role because what I'm doing isn't really conventional. I was looking for pictures and testimonials from people, or what their customers had said, about this type of electrical layout. I appreciate all the input and suggestions though.
I don't know what you would do about switches. Click on the bottom thumbnail on the right. You can just make out the plug mold.
http://www.finelinesmaine.com/portfolio.cfm?cat=3&row=5
Edited 8/7/2007 9:18 pm ET by Mike_Maines
I don't know what you would do about switches. Click on the bottom thumbnail on the right. You can just make out the plug mold.http://www.finelinesmaine.com/portfolio.cfm?cat=3&row=5Thanks for the link. My wife is a visual person and therefore has no idea what the finished product will look like. For switches, maybe some sort of touch pad like BETRICKEY suggested?
<As far as switches I wired in some touch pads into the lights and concealed the pads behind cabinet doors. They work like a charm and the backsplash is very clean.>It might get a little too costly going the route of that fancy way where you touch the cabinet door hindge and the light turns on.I'm still open to any other suggestions if anyone else wants to add their two cents worth.
check out hafele.com they used to have a light and plug combination that fit flush in the bottom recess of the cabinets. the outlets needed a GFI breaker and the light were wire seperately with a built in switch or could be tied to a switch leg from a wall switch. not sure if these are still around.
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
He should be able to put two gfci recpt on dif circuits and feed his plugmoulds. May not be the look he wants but I usually have some semi-permanently located appliance that could use it and sort of hide them.
Why not connect them to a GFCI breaker and scratch the standard GFCI outlets?
Would you rather go to the garage/basement to reset or do it at the counter. Generally the recpts are cheaper or should I say less expensive?
I sometimes use a waffle iron and when finished hit the test button to kill the outlets rather than turning down the thermostat before unplugging. That way DW does not lose her setting on the t-stat.
Just my take on the matter.
Bob
I'm following you and I would alway prefer to use the outlets rather than the breakers myself, but I was under the impression that the OP was trying to avoid using any standard outlets. Another option would be to install something like this inside a cabinet where it wouldn't be seen and run you plug molds off of it.
View Image
Edited 8/8/2007 3:15 pm ET by rnsykes
I read that but that is why I mentioned the probability of having a couple of appliances that would always be present and plugged in sort of masking the recptacles.
Agree with your gfci non-recpt idea too. Could put it/them in a two or three gang in cabinet with a microwave recpt.
I thought it was mould but it is mold. Available in Aluminum also.
http://www.wiremold.com/shared_content/pdf/ed1025.pdf
Edited 8/8/2007 6:52 pm ET by rasconc
I was going to use rysykes idea as a last resort <<Why not connect them to a GFCI breaker and scratch the standard GFCI outlets?>>rasconc, what you wrote makes perfect sense to me <<I read that but that is why I mentioned the probability of having a couple of appliances that would always be present and plugged in sort of masking the recptacles.>> but the concern I have is that I'm not sure if we'd have any appliances that would always be present. We're not coffee drinkers so that eliminates one. And I'm just not sure what our counter top appliance layout would be? And it could change down the road so I'd like to avoid using appliances to hide the electrical.I've been talking with the electrician at work and he said that I need to have a GFI on the circuit, which we're all aware of. So why can't the GFI be in the side of the island or peninsula? You're required to have an outlet there, so why not put GFI there? This is along the lines of what rysykes wrote << Another option would be to install something like this inside a cabinet where it wouldn't be seen and run you plug molds off of it.>>When I spoke with the building inspector, he didn't say that I needed to have more than one circuit with GFCI's running through it. I should talk to him again and be more specific with that point and have the kitchen layout with me if I speak to him in person.Is what I'm trying to do that unconventional? Just wondering why I don't see it... in my area (Northeast) Do people find it an inconvience to access the electrical when it's 'hidden'? I realize that the kitchen is one of the hardest working rooms in a house. So I guess it boils down to personal preferance and if I'm willing to be 'inconvienced' every now and then if I want to plug something in. But then again, in time I will grow accustomed to this and it won't be an issue?
Not sure I would call it unconventional, just some good thinking. One of those "why didn't I think of that" things. On the link I sent they show plugmold that alternates circuits. I think that is a great idea. I wanted to use that in a commercial job recently but supplier could not get it quick enough.
Even if not code, I would never put only one circuit for countertops, it is real easy to go over 20amp ckt limit. A coffee maker and toaster oven would do it (I know you don't do coffee).
Better check with inspector on two ckts. He may have just expected you to know that.
I like your solution of island mounted gfci, I would try to avoid tile located recpts also.
Bob
Is what I'm trying to do that unconventional? Just wondering why I don't see it... in my area (Northeast) Do people find it an inconvience to access the electrical when it's 'hidden'? I realize that the kitchen is one of the hardest working rooms in a house.
Function creates form. Wait, form follows function. That's what I meant.
C'mon, "the northeast".......you mean New England? The land of hard-headed practicality? Or maybe you're a city feller :-)
BTW, why don't you look into Despard switches. They're very small (3 fit in one single-gang cover), are still being made, and work good.
Ed
Edited 8/8/2007 9:15 pm ET by edlee
Edited 8/8/2007 9:16 pm ET by edlee
<<C'mon, "the northeast".......you mean New England? The land of hard-headed practicality? Or maybe you're a city feller :-)BTW, why don't you look into Despard switches. They're very small (3 fit in one single-gang cover), are still being made, and work good.Ed>>Ya, New England... Connecticut to be exact and not a city feller. Actually I used to work at a farm... after a day of framing, or trimming, or roofing, etc. Gave up the farm thing after eight years and a broken wrist.
Despard switches might be a good idea for my application. I put the rocker style in a few years back when I remodeled a room at the house. I'm happy with themrasconc, I agree that it would be a good idea to put at least two circuits in the kitchen. Never know what's going to get plugged into kitchen outlets, aside from kitchen appliances. Looks like I have some more ideas to kick around before we come to a final decision, not only on the face of the wall, but in between the studs as well. I was hoping to get some feedback from someone who has this type of design in their house and uses it everyday. As well as some pictures with the switches mounted under the cabinets as well. But I'm happy to get the feedback that I did.
Maverik, you mentioned you have the plugmolds in your kitchen. Are your switches mounted the conventional way? How do you find the plugmold to use in everyday life?
Edited 8/9/2007 1:26 am ET by kltzycrpntr
one other thought to mull, In my area an island or pennisula requires a switch in the side of it (more based on size and if a sink is present). you could make those the actual GFI's and then tie in the plug mold. Also, a lot of cabinet companies have mouldings that can be applied to the bottom of the cabinat to hide lights and outlets. We call them light rail trim here.good luck,jay"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini
Check code in your area,
around here in the kitchen, each receptacle has to be split,
i.e top/ bottom of each on a separate circuit.
Dont want to be blowing breakers weith too many appliances plugged in !!
That's a Canajin thing. Where do you live?
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Edited 8/8/2007 4:57 pm by DanH
Toronto!!It makes sense tho doesnt it?
Microwaves, toasters, Blenders, Coffe makers,,,
Sure beats tripping a breaker every dayRegardsr2
That's why everyone in the States eats breakfast at McDonald's.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I don't follow the Canadain code, but it is my understanding that has been modified.One reason is that more GFCI's are being used.And if you use 20 amp circuits then you don't need to splti the receptacles..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I used plug-mould for my kitchen for the same reason, did'nt want to break up the field of tile. now I have a plug every 6 inches
my electrician fed them through 2 GFCI receptacles located in the basement directly beneath the litchen cabinets
mount the plug-mould to the bottom of the cabinets at least 1/2" off the wall so you can slide your tile behind it
you'll need to incorporate an under cabinet moulding, sometimes called a "light bar moulding" to reduce the visibility to the plug-mould
With the outlets up against the back of the upper cabs, you better make sure that you never have a stiff neck or bad back if you want to get anything plugged into them. The more you hide them the more contortions you will have to go through to get the plugs in them - unless, perhaps, you use mirror tiles for the counter top.
I don't think this is form follows function, as someone suggested - I think it is aesthetics overriding function.