Apparently the plumber didn’t get paid. The rough-in was completed on this house. Now look at it.
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Replies
Ouch. Bet everybody else who works on that job until it's finished gets paid on time. I kinda hate to say it...... but good for him if that is indeed what happened.
G,D, & R.
A buddy of mine started his own thing years ago, and his first big job was framing townhouses. He got a call saying he wouldn't get his check until the fireblocking was installed. Funny, he thought, I know I put it in. He goes to the site and the electrician has all the fireblocks laying on the floor because it was easier to knock them out than to drill. Tom notches all of them neatly around the Romex, puts them back, okays it with the builder, gets paid. Two weeks later, the same call comes through, and he does the same thing, this time with a nasty letter to the GC.
A couple of weeks later, guess what? The phone rings again, same story. "Okay, I'll fix it tomorrow". He and the crew go to the job, neatly hatchet off the Romex where it interferes with their blocking installation, goes to the electrician's office with a copy of the letter, and tells him "Good luck getting your effin' inspection".
Amazingly, the next group of townhomes had a different crew running the wiring.
I did a side job once years back.... built a deck for a guy. The guy wouldn't pay me. He finally came screaming out of the house with a check as I was climbing back into my truck with his deck chained to the reciever on my truck. I'm still not sure if I was actually gonna do it.... but at least I got paid. I've learned a lot since then.... like how to front load a payment schedule and stay out of jail.View Image
I know of a guy that once installed some iron railings on the front steps of a home and was never paid. Went one day and did the same thing, chained it to his hitch. Only he actually went through with it, unhooked the mangled mess, and left it on their lawn...apparantly so they couldn't get him for stealing.
no but they could charge him for disturction of propriety and treaspase. I belive.
Hey Fred...
No Shi#! Thanks for telling me. I said I "knew of a guy". I diddn't ever say I agreed with it, or that I had anything at all to do with it at all. In fact, I threw in him leaving it there in the end so it wouldn't be stealing as an example of his twisted logic.
a guy who works for me got free carpet for his , his moms & his sisters house
seems the carpet guys didn't get paid for about 20 rooms of carpet in a complex behind one of my shopping centers... we were out back fix'n a fence when we kept see'n room after room of new carpet tossed in the parking lot.... we asked the guys toss'n it and they said... boss told us to remove it and put it out here... my guy asked if he could have it... they told him they didn't care who took it but they couldn't...
i helped him load a 16ft trailer full with new pad...
seems the guy who had purchased the apt complex kept say'n there was a problem or find'n problems as a reason to not pay...
so as i understand it the carpet guy wasn't doing anything unlawful remove'n "defective carpet"
he told me later everytime price isn't an object and people upgrade for rental units he never gets paid... said his new rule is "if it's rental and they want the best and want to pay for the cheapest" he knows they are real landlords... if they want the best want it installed NOW and don't argue or have concerns over price.... he won't do the job unless it's paid for with cleared funds first...
my guy even offered to pay him something for the carpet he got... guy wouldn't take a dime... so my guy went and cut the grass at the dudes shop for a whole summer...
P
I worked for a guy that had worked for a real large building contractor, schools, churches, things like that.
This Guy ( Terry) got the shaft on a sub job to said builder..bad enough, he went out to a school site and moved all the nails on the batterboard stringlines...just enough.
That was classic..seeing ALOT of concrete getting dug out a month later.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Enjoyning the finite of matter, in an infinite realm of possibilities...
" I've learned a lot since then..like how to"And then I thought you were going to say "actually pull a deck off a house with my truck" ;-)
DP
I had an incident exactly like that, HO spent the money, had a bad gambling problem. I called my lawyer to see if I could do anything, he said I better not because I was potentially leaving a dangerous situation (guy might step out of his back door and break a leg and sue me)
I had all the deck boards just shot down with a finish nailer so that I could go along and screw them all at once, figured it'd be real easy to pop all them off but I didnt.
Never did get paid for that job.
Doug
Never did get paid for that job.
That does one heck of a number to the mind.
Tim
It sucks, doesn't it? I've got a judgement against a guy in Woodcliff Lakes, NJ, for a stair railing job. I'll always remember that job, 'cause the day I did it, I had a migraine. It took everything I had to do it right, but I did. I sued him in small claims court, and he never contested it. And now, I've got a worthless piece of paper entitling me to payment, plus interest. I've had it since about 1990. Man, that rat bastard owes me a ton of interest by now.
Getting a judgement is merely a moral victory. Getting to burn the house down, now that, that would be justice.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
It sucks, doesn't it?
Yea it does.
I did quite a bit of work on this house, new roof, new sidding, new windows, re-did some sheetrock inside and then came the deck.
All along I was getting payments as we agreed. Helped that the the HO had a loan on all the improvements and I had to sign all the checks with him in order to cash them. Came down to the last one and I signed it ahead of time, my bad but I was within a day or two of finishing up and we were taking care of all the paper work/finalization shid ahead of time, Christmas was a couple days away and we wanted to get everything out of the way.
Made for a nice Christmas, I was down about $5000 with two days till the big day and I'm one of those guys that do all my shopping one day before!
Oh, I got one of those papers to, not worth much, just like yours.
Doug
Buddy of mine had a no pay on a triplex. One of those "Nothing wrong with the job, I'm just not gonna pay you" deals.
Up on the roof with those soft rubber balls, red foam rubber about tennis ball size.
Down the vent stacks as far as they'd go, followed with some kind of dry stuff like rock hard water putty or something of the sort. Fix all maybe, that kind of thing.
He never got paid, but felt better about it.
Joe H
I had a 'friend' who as a teen had a small lawn mowing business and he would mow every week and bill his customers once a month. He had one retired customer who told him mid June that he was going up north for two months and just to mow his lawn every week and bill him when he came back. Two months later the HO refuses to pay the $800 bill saying "I don't belive you mowed my grass every week and you can't prove that you did". They grappled back and forth for a couple months before my friend dropped it. The next April he went back to the house in the middle of the night with a sprayer and covered the 1 acre lawn, the shrubs and flowers with a heavy dose of Roundup vegetation killer. The guy did not have to worry about paying someone to mow his yard that next summer. I wonder if he ever did figure out what happened.Yes revenge is best served cold.
-Day
Well, unless he did some other damage in hidden areas, it doesn't look like it would take much to fix it.
I had a mason years ago who would put a piece of window glass in the last joint of the flue liner. Once he got paid, he'd wander by and break it out. But if he wasn't paid, they'd likely be wondering for months why the chimney wouldn't draw.
I know a plumber who once didn't get paid. He went into the house after the carpet was down and the interior painted. With him was a bucket of joint compound and an M-80 with a long fuse. "What? You didn't want a textured finish on the Berber? Who knew?
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
One of my first memories in the business was something like this.
A lawyer contacted my Grandpa and Uncle to frame a front porch for him, I was brought along to clean and carry boards. I was 6 or 7 years old.
At the end of the day my grandpa asked the lawyer for the amount agreed on the contract and the lawyer said he wasn't going to pay.
He yells "Keith back old Blue up to the porch we are taking this one off the house." Keith backed up and hooked a log chain around the beam and got back in the truck. He put in gear and the lawyer screamed "wait here's your friggen money."
Nothing gets attention like a 1 ton 1979 Full size Ford truck hooked to your house.
That's why I bought one just in case. :) What's wrong with me? I could ask you the exact same thing.
The builder didn't want to run the air during one hot summer years ago.
One of the sub-contract trim carpenters didn't get paid. He said the builder asked him what he was going to do about it and called him chicken
I saw him go up into the attic with a 5 gallon bucket and a hole saw. A few days later everything started to stink, we thought a rat died in one of the walls. The builder said to ignore it that the rat will stop stinkin soon. But it got much worse. When we opened up one of the walls we found a rotting chicken leg.
I went through the attic and counted over 30 holes in the top plates. Even after we opened the walls the place stunk for quite a while.
After that when the builder balked at payment to anyone they just yelled" Viva La Chicken!"
I always liked that kind of pay back.
Drywallers use crow bars pulling the ceilings down after placing holes in the walls .
i'd like the whole story. why wouldn't a mechanics lien have gotten him paid? now its looking like he won't get paid at all, plus facing criminal charges. <shaking head>
for all we know, the plumber could have been an idiot who caused thousands in damage and the back charges more than offset what he was owed. or the builder could have said, i know we agreed on 10,000, but i'm paying you 5,000 and if you don't like it, sue me. the mechanics lien system is pretty good although not perfect. self-help can really cause problems when the vandalism and beatings get out of hand. we don't have debtors prison ... extending credit means you will suffer collection loss.
i've had clients ask for a discount if they paid the invoice right away. my response to that is you will pay all of it now, or you can pay later plus the interest on what you owe. (our engagement letter provides for 18% interest on balances over 30 days). of course, i still get stiffed and sometimes its just easier to let it go. live and learn and next time get a retainer, or just spot the trouble and walk away. its not worth going to jail or getting burned up over collection.
sorry to break up the fun. the anecdotes where the good guys won through threats are a lot more fun to read than this i'm sure.
I'm sure I don't know the whole story. I'll tell what I know, with a little of what I think mixed in. =) The plumber who did the damage didn't do the rough-in, at least not all of it. He did the underground, and maybe some of the rough-in. The owner said his workmanship was poor (I walked the job just one time briefly before they poured, and I pointed out drain lines in the slab that were 2" higher than the slab, plumbing in wrong places, like doorways, etc.) and he didn't respond to phone calls when it was time to finish the rough-in. So the owner found someone else.
The owner said he hadn't talked to this guy in a long time. Said he left messages, but the guy wouldn't respond. Then suddenly a week ago the guy left him a message, saying You owe me money. He figured he'd talk to him about it when he called back, but wasn't going to return the call, since the plumber wouldn't return his messages.
I think he probably would have paid the guy, if the guy talked to him about it. Unbelievable as it sounds, he said he's still planning on paying the guy.
The guy cut virtually every plumbing line in two houses. Went in the attic, too. DWV lines, copper, pex, gas. Everything. Stole two new tubs, too. One fiberglass, one cast-iron.
Anyway, I've done a lot of work for this owner (T&M), a nice guy but a guy who creates problems. Most of what I do for him is fighting fires he creates (as an owner-builder-investor, building houses with no construction experience, using someone else's money). Before he even started these houses, I gave him the name of a good plumber. But he said he wanted to try to save a few bucks by finding a cheapie plumber. I told him my guy wasn't the cheapest, nor the most expensive. In a competitive bid, he usually comes in dead center. But his work is very good, no problems, no call-backs. Done right the first time. Licensed, insured. (Actually a very large company, but I always deal with my "contact" guy, who is a supervisor.)
Anyway, the owner admits he does owe the guy some money. Which makes me think he's owed him for awhile, since I've been out there working on these places off-and-on for the past 2 or 3 months, and this plumber was gone before I got there.
He's very frustrating to work for, but he pays (me) promptly, and never balks at the amount, never questions my bills. He's basically trying to run these jobs from out-of-town, by phone, with a lot of phone calls to me, asking me to do basic stuff he could do himself if he'd show up and work once in awhile. He actually shows up about 2 days a week. The rest of the time he just hangs out with his girlfriend over at the coast (this is based on what he tells me, so I assume its true, but don't know for sure).
So far he's alienated the architect, the building department, this plumber (who I think is probably a jerk), a whole slew of legitimate tradesmen (including myself - but my wife says Shut up and fight his fires, as long as he's paying you!), and his investment partner. Did I mention that he's a nice guy? Whaddya gonna do?
"...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Edited 8/11/2006 1:56 am by Huck
In most cases, a lien won't get you paid.It is just like a note tacked onto the deed at the registry over to the county courthouse saying, hey - if this place ever gets sold, this here mechanic needs to get his share out of it.if it stays in the family for a hundred years, the mechanic never gets paid.I used a threat of lien to get paid once. I did the roof on a large, fancy custom house. The builder was at that time claiming to be the second largest builder in the country. After three months of "The check is in the mail" I stopped by the job to collect the information off the permit posted out front. to be able to file a valid lien, it had to be done within ninety days of invoice date. This was in the last week and I really wanted my four or five grand. I visited with the lead carpenter for awhile and just asked whether anybody else had had any trouble getting paid? nope, why?
I told him I was on my way to the courthouse the next day with my $17.00 filing fee to lay my claim agaisnt the deed. He must have called the home office, because my phone was ringing the minute I got home. I had the money overnight.I believe they had already gotten the roof draw from the HO and would have beeen severly embarrassed to have to explain how a lien got levied...They were just playing with my money.A lawsuit is more likely to produce a payment than a lien, but only if you have all your doicumentation perfect.Personally, I have only been stiffed for about eight hundred in a thirty some year career at this
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Remember my thread last month; it took me two years and another $25 K to get paid the original $22K + the $25K costs.
Long time to have the money tied up, even if you do win.
Forrest
In reality, what can you do about sistutaion like these. legal of course.
Years ago when I worked for my brother [Plumbing Contractor] we had a GC that would not pay for the rough-in, couldn't find him. One day we seen a different crew doing the finish,we proceded to the house and removed "Defective fixtures" with a sledge hammer; never did get the money, but it shure felt good! It cost much more to replace the defective fixtures than what he owed. FYI most of these actions are illegal, anybody that does them has to be sure that they are on a legal ground.
Had one of those B*st*rd client types stiff me and couple of others. When he sold his place I finally got mine as did at least one of the others. We showed up at the closing to get our money so he could deliver a clear title to the new owner. Until then he thought that he was making a profit on his sale.
Expression on his face was priceless! (Third party had become a realitor and keept him in the dark about having to clear the title)
Tis true that revenge is a dish best served cold.
I got a chuckle reading the various stories. I admit that it's not a smart move to do vandalism but it does make one feel good.
Some of you mentioned getting a judgement against someone in court but haven't received payment. Why not hire a sheriff/constable and repossess the person's car/truck or other stuff? About a week ago, there was a series of articles in the Boston Globe about the over-aggressiveness of collection agencies and how they mis-use the small claims courts to get a judgement and then go after the debtor by repossessing their stuff. I admit I don't fully understand the logistics of how to do this but it seems that it's possible to do.
It is probably a good idea to have wording in your contract that states the person will pay X% interest and is responsible for collection fees for any accounts 60 days past due, etc, etc.
It depends on the state you're in. NJ, where I have my judgement, is far more sympathetic toward the deadbeat than the contractor. One's hands are tied. About all you can do is turn that judgement into a lien and wait for the house to sell. In my case, the deadbeat declared bankruptcy, and only the bank got paid. Legally, the debt is discharged. Morally, he'll always be a scum sucking deadbeat who deserves a slow and painful death. Not that I'm bitter, but I am wiser.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Remember something, Andy. Here in Jersey, renters have it over landlords, and homeowners have it over contractors.You never see the stories on the news programs about the deceitful homeowner who ripped off the making-an-honest-living contractor.And, by the way, aren't we, or at least some of us, homeowners also?
Personally, I know a bunch more contractors who've been ripped off by home owners than the other way around. I lived in NJ long enough to know that its government has no interest in justice, just in getting re-elected. You'd think that only being the Hudson Valley away, Connecticut would be similar. But I find it much better, even though CT is considered to be a fairly anti-business state.
My favorite thing about NJ is how it looks in my rearview mirror.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Ouch.I hate people who suppress their anger.Tell me how you really feel. (Chukle heard while typing.)
Tell me how you really feel.
Hey - NJ is a good place to be from.
It's funny. When I tell people that's where I grew up, the first reaction is usually something like, "You don't talk like you're from Jersey." Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
I am from down south where most people think faster than they talk (still slow). I lived in Lakehurst, NJ for over three years and met a lot of very nice folks, thought there was some beautiful places and things there. But even the most beautiful girl has a couple of armpits, so does "Joisey". Did not consider it as a potential retirement choice though.
Where did you grow up?
White Township, which is near Belvidere in Warren County. Out near the Delaware Water Gap.
You?Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Grew up in Pequannock Township, Morris Co., next to Wayne, which is Passaic Co.Bought this house 12 1/2 years ago in Wanaque, Passaic Co.Have spent those 12 1/2 years wanting to move back, or out.Taxes too high. Basically one road in and out. Too much traffic at rush hours.I don't like traffic.
Sure, I know that area a little. Route 23, I think, goes though there. I used to go that way to buy stair parts from Glen Rock Stairs in Oakland. Now, I mainly pass through on 287 going somewhere else.
There are some pretty nice spots around there, if memory serves. Rugged and hilly country.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Exactly.Glen rock was the goto place, but they have gotten a little atitude, so now we go to Jefferson Lumber , near Lake Hopatcong.Good people, good service.
Funny how the world changes. I started out going to Jefferson, didn't like their attitude, and switched to Glen Rock. What goes around comes around.
Ever go to Hot Rod's BBQ in Dover?Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Never got out that way too much. More lately to Rockaway (you know, the wife and the mall).Mostly around this part where Passaic and Morris Co.s come together.
West Milford and Kinnelon lately, depending on whom I'm doing work for.
Well, if you're at the Rocakway mall, Hot Rods is maybe ten minutes further on. Excellent BBQ joint, if you like that sort of thing.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
<Excellent BBQ joint, if you like that sort of thing.>
I'm sorry, I didn't realize there was another choice!
Sprayberry's in LaGrange / Moreland GA is my favorite around here - worth the 90 minute drive./
Forrest
I had 'Q in a joint in Marietta once - Williamson Brothers, I think, not far from the big chicken. Now, the pulled pork was good, but the onion rings were memorable. There were three. The covered the plate.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
The WSJ has an online section, Best of the Web where they make comments on current stories.They also point out intesting headlines, often because they can be missread.The also have a bottom story of the day section.Today they had this one."Bottom Stories of the Day"N.J. Officials Charged With Corruption"--headline, Associated Press, Aug. 10"
'"N.J. Officials Charged With Corruption"--headline, Associated Press, Aug. 10""Yeah, like we've never read that line before. that isn't even NEWS anymore.
That is why they listed as a bottom story.
I think I experienced a case of this today. The homeowner is withholding money from all the subs on the first house in the subdivision. It's been probably 4 months since I finished framing the house and I got paid, but the flatwork guys, electricians, roofers, siders, and plasterers have not.
The homeowner won't allow the bank, title company to cut checks to these guys. Stating that the work is not good enough. There isn't a single thing wrong with this house.
Today I showed up to work and that house had rocks thrown thru 5 windows, and the $1800 front door kicked in. Along with the occasional pellet from a BB gun thrown in there for good measure.
Whoever did this had to be a big dude, he threw a 15 lb rock through the front window so hard it went through the plaster wall 20 feet behind it. Also threw a 10lb rock through a second story window grills and all. They kicked the front door in hard enough to split the jamb, break the dead bolt and knock the brick molding off it. I screwed the brickmold to the door with 3" deck screws before I had installed it.
Before they left the started the trash pile on fire 5' from the house! I had to replace 5 pieces of siding. I spent the morning meeting with the cops and the GC on site and they think it was some kids. I like to meet the "kid" who did this, he must be built like a brick sh!thouse.
Moral of the story: PAY YOUR FRIGGEN BILLS!
What's wrong with me? I could ask you the exact same thing.
I like to meet the "kid" who did this, he must be built like a brick sh!thouse. Moral of the story: PAY YOUR FRIGGEN BILLS!
LOL! You think like I do. When I saw the plumbing in this house, the first words out of my mouth were: "Do you owe any of the plumbers on this house any money?" The H.O.'s response was classic: "Just one". Of course, this case was a little more to the point: Not one window broken, not one wire cut. Just two tubs stolen and each and every piece of plumbing vandalized in both houses!"...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Must have been the roofers. :)
What's wrong with me? I could ask you the exact same thing.
I heard that.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Enjoyning the finite of matter, in an infinite realm of possibilities...
I was jokin.
Me too. (G)
.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Enjoyning the finite of matter, in an infinite realm of possibilities...
Interesting - sounds like what you are saying is that a bankruptcy releases a mechanic's lien?
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
it does..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Well, that stinks.
This whole thread should be called "Instant Karma"; that bit of information seems like "justice delayed is justice denied"
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
"Interesting - sounds like what you are saying is that a bankruptcy releases a mechanic's lien?"Not exactly.The lien is against the property and not the person.Bankruptcy will not remove the lien.Now what might have happened is that the property was also foreclosed on. During foreclosure, Andy could have bid on the property, but the first lien holder (mortgage copampy) will bid what they are owed so those below have to bid higher. And there has to be enough value in the porperty that the bider can sell it for that amount or more.
not construction related but still a pretty good story
A friend of mine used to paint cars on the side , he had a steel bldg out back with floresent lights set up on the walls and all , exhust fans ,decent shade tree setup .
he used to charge material cost plus a couple of hundred .
anyway he paints a car for a guy, guy says he can't pay untill next month , the work out some intrest and he paints the car .
well next month the guy has problems cant pay , this goes on about 6 months . finally he had enough went to wall-mart bought a Gal of cheap paint remover went to the guys house started at the roof and poured the gal out over the roof hood and trunk.
knocked on the guys door and told him "hey Ahole you dont owe me anything now "
oven cleaner will make paint bubble, oh I should not of told you that.
When I lived in Helena, Mt I had a friend who'd done work for a local attorney who refused to make the final payment.
One day my friend (decorated combat vet with a serious attitude) saw the lawyer in a fancy bar having a drink with hiw lawyer buds. Friend walked up, slid into the booth beside Mr. deadbeat with a smooth move of body mass and a elbow that knocked the wind right out of Mr deadbeat. As the guy sat there trapped and trying to get his breath my friend said that this would be a good time to pay that final payment that had been due for many months. He got a check on the spot.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
Pool deck guy finished working for a famous Barbara who had a famous nose. She told him he will only get 80% of the price, her lawyers needed to earn their keep.
No problem, the cement company was told of the situation and they reminded the lawyers that cement trucks do have "accidents". They paid right away.