Anyone care to comment on this job? We were too stunned to figure out why doing nothing was better than this. Its for a gas fireplace.
Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
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Replies
The occupants seem to like to expose their utilities, if you know what I mean.
Mark, that would funny if it wasn't our house! We are non plussed.Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
Did you let someone do that? Or was it already done?
We came home to find it done. The concrete contractors put pvc under the concrete where a sidewalk was put near the chimney. But they put 90 degree bends at the ends so apparently the plumber could not get the flexi line through. At that point, a reasonable person stops and asks questions. Not our man. We will pull this out and do a hard line either high or low around the masonry that can be painted out our at least made less obvious. The second choice was to enter the house walls which were open and go through the studs. JeezThose who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
It looks well done, except for the very unattractive part of the job.
You gonna make him get all them scratches outta the bricks?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Don't know yet. Too depressed about this to think about it. we hate the brick, but covering it with a skim coat may cost more than its worth. Considering growing moss over the whole mess.Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
Guy used to work for the cable company?
Ugha Chaka! Ugha Chaka! Ugha, Ugha, Ugha, Chaka!
i agree.... ex cable guy
Gunner, you are making me cry. The cable went the same direction: screwed into the brick. The electrician on the remodel was kind enough to pull all the cable indoors/under roof/into walls for us(more$$$$$). I am not in the trades, but I like to argue on the Woodshed and poll you guys for advice, and I am never dissappointed. That said, do I need to sit on premises all day losing pay so this won't happen? I really don't know how to stop this stuff from happening. In my brain, if something is not adding up, I stop and ask a question. Is barreling ahead with this sort of work common out there? I am truly astounded and dismayed.Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
No wonder I DIY everything. At least then when it looks like cr%% one can rationalize <G>
That said, do I need to sit on premises all day losing pay so this won't happen? I really don't know how to stop this stuff from happening.
You mighta just stepped in it. It's the general contractor's job to supervise subs and ensure the work is up to snuff. Or are you an owner/builder? If you are, then your argument is probably going to be that since you hired "professionals" you shouldn't need to babysit them. And in theory, you'll be correct if that's your argument. But welcome to the real world, right? If all things were as they should be, being a GC would be easy. Come to find out.... it ain't.
But you're not alone. Shoot, I'm a framer and I spend about 60 hours a week on the sites of homes being built and remodeled. I'm also GCing my own house at the same time. And I'm still running into some of the same problems as you are. What it boils down to is being a GC is a full time job. So if you or I want to continue with our daily occupation while contracting our own homes, we better be prepared to be working what amount to two full time jobs for awhile.
Or maybe you do have a GC and I'm just peeing in the wind here? View Image
I have a GC. But I think he needs to police for me a lot harder. I am also aware that if one wants aesthetics, they come at a higher cost than imagined. Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
thought on hidin the chimney, Lee Valley sells clips that grab the outside of a brick that you can use to run trellis wires, find a vine you like that won't burrow into the mortar and you can hide the bricks. Probably not a good idea to leave the gas line there though as it might get cut come pruning day.http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=2&p=10437&cat=2,51520
Storme. I have not found a non destructive vine. They all seem invasive and cause trouble on a building. Looks good, but in the end ususally a problem. If the neighbors house is ugly, they can do it! But I prefer not to.Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
I'm a landscaper. Vines get a bad rap because some of the most common (ivy say) attach by clinging with rootlet like structures and can damage stucco or wood surfaces. But there are quite a few which will simply twine up a support and won't actually grow into the siding. There's some concern about keeping walls wet longer but my experience has been that where a wall is covered with vines you see a dramatically less UV damage to the siding and I haven't ever seen a wall where I've seen dry rot caused by plant coverage. You get real advantages in energy savings too - much cooler in summer. Properly selected, I'd be willing to bet a vine covered wall will last longer than an uncovered one due to the UV damage issue. at least on southern exposures.Critters can be an issue but as long as you keep it reasonably well trimmed and make sure you don't have any actual entries it hasn't been much of a problem (though I'll admit, not completely trouble free). There's some hysteria over rats and ivy partly I think because ivy is used to cover a lot of waste areas - i.e. highways etc. where you find rats, I haven't seen rats in ivy in household setting where you don't have fast expanses of dense ivy.If you do reconsider, pick on that doesn't grow a lot of woody material (honeysuckle for example) which can become a fire hazard. If, down the road you decide to remove it, simply cut the support wires and the whole thing should peel off in one mass, plant gone. If you go with a wooden trellis, hinge it at the bottom so future house painters can simply lay the plant down to paint behind it.
LOL You said hysteria I thought for a sec that you were recomending wisteria.
Holy crap you can lift a house with that stuff
I have a GC.
Don't get your shorts all in a wad. Tell the Gc that this is not acceptable, and he needs to have it fixed at no cost to you. And withold all future paymetn until it's done professionally.
Interesting swirl pattern in the brick. Looks like it was made that way? You said you don't like it ... is that the brick you slected?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
In all fairness, the plumber agreed not to bill us for this work. The remainder of the work, however, "ran long" and we seemed to get a large bill anyway. I am afraid this got buried into other work. I can't really accuse a person of that however. That is really not a way to work. So the cosmic shrug goes into play...
The brick work! Eddie, that is circa 1971. The interior of the house fireplace had the same. It is happily gone. We like retro, but not this kind of retro. It is ugly as sin, and why would you use white brick in rainy Seattle? Also, this is earthquake area, and I have no love of masonry here, even when its nice. In the Nisqually quake, a line of mortar spalled off where the thing was flexing. In retrospect, I should have removed the whole thing. But what a job.Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions a bit then. I just find it a bit tough to swallow that a GC would let that fly without at least pulling you aside and explaining either why it was done that way (if it was after the fact) or laying out the options for you (if it was caught before installation).
When you asked the question, "What do I have to do, stay home all day...." I assumed (again, my fault) that you were GCing it yourself otherwise I can't imagine why the thought would even cross your mind. Now I get it. So to go all the way back and answer your original question.... no way should you have to supervise that stuff. But many subs will try to sneak some pretty sketchy things by even the shrewdest of GC's given the opportunity.
I'd pull the GC aside and ask him his thoughts on why it was run that way and find out what the options are because I believe your gut is correct.... it's shady looking.View Image
Even if he is the GC, that's a piss poor installation.
If I showed up and one of the plumbers we use did something that I'd kick him in the rear so hard he'd taste his colon.
Cable and phone guys are notorious for that crap. At least around here they are.
Tell your GC that your not having it, and he needs to start keeping up with what's going in at his house. It is his house until it's finished. And don't accept that he was busy elsewhere. He's gladly accepting full pay for doing the work then he needs to be fully acountable.
Ugha Chaka! Ugha Chaka! Ugha, Ugha, Ugha, Chaka!
Does code allow that????
That was the first question that I had. If CSST was rated for exterior exposure.I think that they should have run it across the chimmey so that it was in the pattern of your inital.
The sad part is someone stood back and looked at their handiwork and thought it was acceptable.
Hope you get it sorted out.
My experience with plumbers is that there is no such thing as "Plumber's Aesthetics." They probably did this for the same reason that they religiously come into a new kitchen where you've got 1.29 bazillion $$ worth of stone set and upend a cardboard box full of tools and fittings onto it, letting the excess fall on your newly installed floor. Now before any plumbers out there flame me, remember that I said "in my experience."
Bruce
Between the mountains and the desert ...
Oh sure throw out the disclaimer
I had rockets ready.
CSST always looks like cr*p.
Hey ETHER That ball valve has got to go!
Was it actually a "plumber" or the gas fireplace guy.
That pipe job is a joke a galvanized pipe wrap around the base then vertical would have been more professional. Not the best but maybe the best under the circumstances.
Thanks for the reply! You are in Seattle area, no? Can you explain your solution a little more? I think that is our idea. Why no ball valve? Will galvanic rust out and stain out the concrete?Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
That looks terrible. That being said I have to say usually it comes down to how do you view it.
What I mean is this. My brother works for me. He and I work well together. He does great work that is sound, solid and safe. But.......if you say to him we want a gas line to the upstairs fireplace and we want it to be done right but keep the cost in line and he can't find a reasonable way into the house he will call me. If I say I don't have time just get it done.........you might get that product.
At first I thought he was just an idiot (he is my brother so I can think that) but as time has gone on I have learned we just looks at things different. He just doesn't see that something that looks like that is wrong if he is trying to save you money like he thought you asked for. Needless to say he has gotten much better at it working for me but I still check to catch the occasional OMG that he might do in the heat of battle. So I certainly would have a chat with the GC and the plumbing contactor to try and get a financial solution. But I can believe it happened. DanT
Seattle/Tacoma ---- Yup
Galvanized will rust where the threads are cut--- cold gal paint works pretty good.
You could use black but then the whole thing will rust.
The unistrut¯ even though anodized will rust at the cuts.
Run hard pipe low around the base --- not as visable that way---- run pipe vertical then just one 90 going into the wall put escution on pipe where it enters the wall --- looks better that way.
Even though I think Unistrut¯ is the second best invention out side of a sawzall, I wouldn't use strut for this aplication.
I would use electricians single hole stand off brackets.
The valve on the outside is not against code but it looks like crap & do you want somebody to be able to walk by & shut off your heat.
You need a valve on the inside of the house within 6' of the fire place.
Thanks so much! Does there need to be a drip leg anywhere in the line?Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
I prefer them but the new UMC says only after 500K btu's do you need a drip leg
while we're bashing plumbers we've had experience with, and speaking of new flooring and stone tops...
Last year a plumber came to hook up a dishwasher in house we just put new c-tops and wood flooring in. He sets his metal box directly on the finished floor and drags it.
HO notices and say's hey I think you scratched my floor.... He actually tried to deny it and argued with her for a moment...
anyway, that particular "plumber" has been banned from our jobsites.
Look, I've seen this type of thing before. And, when I'm the general, it better not happen. But here we go - access to the inside of the house is generally more expensive. Cutting concrete to run it below is also and option, but you normally have to give the trade access by cutting the concrete yourself.
It's in, and your choice is to call the plumber back and ask him/her for a more pleasing way of doing it, or leave it alone and let the vines grow. Which, by the way, is not the route I would ever choose for MY house.
When I had to ramrod this kind of installation, the plumber spec'd the cost on drilling into the wall and using a flared fitting with copper pipe to the shut-off, then the yellow flex hooked to the stove. There was still a copper pipe from the outside to the inside, and a long one, but we agreed where it would go before the installation so as to minimize the exposure.
Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR Construction
Vancouver, Canada
I agree completely. The concrete guys just did not leave enough room for him and its not worth the redo there. But up and in made sense to us. BTW, the reason he could not go up and straight in at 90 degrees into the brick was that half the fireplace has a flue for the existing gas fireplace. Can't drill through that. So the choice was around or up and into the wall.
Vines are not an option. The previous owner did that and I had to pull vines out of the walls in the basement when I removed the drywall, and fix all the leaks where it entered the house. And scape. And caulk. And repair........Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
I think the job looks nice!!!! yellow is my favorite color?
What a freekin moron!!!!!! I would have thrown a sh%t fit!!!! if that was one of my jobs.
-LMC
Well, look at the good side, he didn't tell me to paint the fireplace yellow to hide it!Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
"And, when I'm the general, it better not happen."I agree. As a GC myself, it my responsibility to ensure that subs follow all expected aspects of the project, we also make it clear that deviations that cause poor work that must be fixed will be charged against what is owed them. Inherent in proper management is the avoidance of such problems, at least ones as flagrant as that.Or a plumber droppin all his tools and filth on a finish floor.You can't make money if you work like that or run a job like that. If the customer pays, it will still follow your rep and bite you in the rear down the line.
I am most familiar with Gastite but even if it is TracPipe I doubt the installation conforms to the Design and Installation Guide since it is less than 6' above the ground and not protected by a conduit or chase. IMHO the location is subject to the potential for mechanical damage since the meter is adjacent to a sidewalk. This looks like crap to me but if your installer believes that this installation is not subject to mechanical damage then they my have done it properly.
See 4.3.6.b on page 47 of the Gastite Design and Installation Guide 2004
<http://www.gastite.com/include/languages/english/downloads/pdfs/DIGuide2004.pdf>
"along side a structure - When installed along the outside of a structure (between the ground and a height of 6 ft.) in an exposed condition , the CSST shall be protected from mechanical damage inside a conduit or chase. A conduit or chase is not required if the tubing is installed in a location that will not subject the CSST to mechanical damage."
I would ask to see the plumbers Gastite (or Tracpipe) card since the product may only be installed by qualified installers who have completed the training program. Even if everything is to mfg. specs in the Design and Installation Guide they should fail inspection if they don't have their card.
Gastite
<http://www.gastite.com/homepage.php?pg=home>
TracPipe
<http://www.omegaflex.com/trac/index.asp>
Huffmiester,
Before you do major demo...
did anyone try to fish the gas line with a pull rope???
sometimes pulling can get the flex line around corners better than pushing.
can you get one size smaller gas line???
Mr. T.
There's a steering-wheel in me pants and it's driving me nuts!!!
Oh great wise one, that too, was on our list. But Seattle has suffered monsoons this year, so the idea gets tested in a month or two! Are there different sizes based on the BTU draw of the appliance?Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
Gastite is available in sizes from 3/8" to 2" and sized according to load, pressure, and length of run. The tables are in the Design and Installation guide that I linked to in an earlier post. One option to allow use smaller CSST is to have your gas utility install a meter that supplies 1 psi or 2 psi gas rather than .25 psi. The higher pressure gas can be run through a smaller line however a regulator must be installed at the end of the run to reduce the pressure.
Been a lurker for a while,decided to throw in my 2 cents............I'd have my contractor excavate under the side walk(a hose and a digging bar does the trick) and run the line underground and up the otherside.......at least hide that gosh awful mess across the chimney.A bit of work that he would not have to do if he paid attention to the details.
Thanks for the .02. The concrete was in years ago, but that contractor put pvc under the pour. Seems at the ends of the pvc they put 90 degree elbows, so the gas line would not pass. hehehehe. This of course brings up the usual discourse that long bends, as in copper plumbing, are always easier to work with . The concrete guys were thinking about water and low voltage, not gas. Salient lesson? If you are going to do someone a favor, 3 or even 4 inch pvc would have been better, even if overkill.
Same goes for guys who put in micro sized electrical boxes for switches. Try cramming in one of the modern timers or dimmers. Great fun. What always amazes me, is that you only save a few pennies by doing this. You pay gross sums of labor to fix the result. Penny wise, pound foolish.Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
that my friend is "SCP" standard commercial practice...
sucks to be me... I all but quit calling anyone to do anything 9 out of 10 times what you have is what i get.... and what they charge has zero to do with what you get most of the time..
p