I’ve been attempting to finish a job that’s gone on about a year. The client wanted to tile the bathroom herself, but after a year of waiting, I was called back in because the permits were about to expire. I tiled T&M, but really my reasoning was to FINALLY have a chance to set the toilet, pedestal, and shower surround, and get my final check. Of course, when there’s the final check involved, it can’t be simple and easy, right? My question pertains to plumbing, specifically, the final “bowl” test.
I’ve capped off the vent on the roof, and plugged the cleanout in the basement. This isolates all the plumbing drain lines for the new bathroom. Here’s my problem: When I go to flood the toilet for the bowl test, I toggle the toilet handle till the water rises a few inches above it’s normal height, and wait for it to hold. It slowly drops! Sometimes, I hear a gurgling in the lav., so I figured it was pulling air through the trap, so I plugged the lav. Then I retried the test. This time, I heard gurgling in the shower! I plugged that. After that, I tried the test and it held, BUT when I removed the plug in the shower, water came into the shower base, which leads me to believe that reason it was holding, was because I filled the entire system with water! Since I’m a plumbing apprentice, I called a licensed plumber and asked him. He told me that a short run can somtimes pull through the traps. He suggested if I heard gurgling in the lav to pour water down the drain. I went to the basement to drain the system (and got soaked releasing to much air from the dildo in the cleanout!), and tried it again. Won’t hold!
So, what do I do? You should know that the system held air for the original air test. Since I’ve been gone a year, waiting for the client to tile, she had the hardwood floor installed in the main attic area. Although my PVC has nailer plates protecting it going through the floor joists, it isn’t inconceivable that someone could have shot a drain line….
Has anyone else had troubles with final bowl tests? Am I missing the obvious? Would it fail slightly if the toilet wasn’t sealed perfecty? IN other words, if the wax ring isn’t sealed well would the drainage be slight or not hold at all. I’m willing to reset the toilet, even though it’s in plaster of paris, if that will help.
I”ve got to get this job done! It’s 3:30 AM on a Friday night and I can’t sleep until I get this fixed! I’m waiting on $4600-$5000 that’s been held forever! Please help anyone!
Replies
Final bowl test?
Is that a local requirement?
I am currently doing a building that has over 500 water closets going in, a final bowl test as you described would be virtually impossible to do.
I know of nothing in the UPC that requires the test you described.
Plugging the vent & waste line , filling the bowl will force air out of the system through other P traps on the system, water seeks its own level so filling the bowl will creep down until the waste & vent have equal height in water.
We final test our water closets by flushing several times adding more TP & flushing again, almost to the point of plugging the toilet, check for leaks, then if it's dry caulk the base & move to the next one.
It might not be a code required test, but inspector in this section of Cincinnati is one of the most difficult and does this test.
You fill the toilet bowl up a few inches above where it would normally be, and it has to hold for fifteen minutes....
You've never heard of this test?
Never heard of this...if the stack was tested as ok a year ago, then this test is superfluous. It will only be for the gasket. Like, huh... Sure, if there was water in the stack up until you flushed the can, then the system didn't leak. So, the only thing to do is block off the shower drain (and any other below the toilet) and fill the toilet as per reqs. That, or invest in a bottle of whiskey for the BI (no, I didn't say that)All the best...
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.
air compresses, water doesn't....so I'm not sure, picturing a trap open to the atmosphere on one side and sealed on the other, would behave if you tried to run the test your inspector is asking for....
Nope never heard of this test & while I was at work today ( gotta love jobs that are behind schedule to have to work on Saturdays) I asked at break if any of the 35 plumbers on my job if they have heard of this test --- answer was nope.
We all pretty much came to the same conclusion that one of the other posters said filling the bowl will compress the air on the other side of the trap & if your waste pipe is 6" & 1000' long you could probably flush the thing a few hundred times before the toilet knows the pipe was plugged.
Maybe you guys are right and I'm getting a fooled. I was instructed to cap off the vent, and plug the cleanout that isolated the branch from the main stack. According to the plumber who's pulling the permit, this inspector asks for a "bowl test". Letting water into the toilet (not flushing) raises the water level in the bowl and it's supposed to hold for 15 minutes. I thought about pulling the toilet, plugging it in the flange, and resetting the toilet, but apparently, he goes in the basement at the end, lets air out the bladder, and drains the lines. I'm not sure if he goes all the way back up to the third floor to check if it drained or not, but seeing how this guy has had the same area for the last 20 years, I wouldn't be surprised.
It really sucks because he's the inspector for my main business area. He knows me, and definitely gives off the negative vibe.
Clients have told me horror stories about the guy coming over to inspect for their new project, and then going and examing their entire system, finding something wrong with a part of the plumbing not even RELATED to the current project! AND, he periodically shows up at jobs that have been finished for a year or more, just to check up on them! This guy needs to get laid, drunk or both...man, lighten up!
"caulk the base & move to the next one"
This is one of my favorite arguments. I never caulk the base of toilets because I think it looks like c___p in a short amount of time especially if the installer uses some c__p_y Tub n Tile caulk.
My Plumber neighbor went golfing with his attorney this morning. I had to go to work to take care of a trim detail for a customer who's holding back several thousand dollars until he's completely satisfied. (Dont tell Cooper13). Theres a joke in there somewhere though I think it may be that I'm it.
yup caulking.
section 408.2 of the UPC says "where a fixture comes in contact with the wall or floor, the joint between the fixture and the wall or floor shall be made water tight.
& I hate a bad caulking job as a plumber 95% of my work gets covered up by dirt , floors , walls , & ceilings. That 5% left you better make looke good.
I don't know what a final bowl test is, never heard of it. What code are you working under where you live?
The 2005 Ohio Plumbing Code which plays off the International Plumbing Code (ICC).
The plumbing inspector in our area does not like me, so I've got to make everything perfect....
Looks to me thqt you're gonna have to be really sucky to this guy. You can't tell him that most of us think he is full of the stuff that gets flushed, but you might ask him how best to please him. Unless he's really trying to pull your ---- there's chance for you to give him deference and to air his superior knowledge. I cannot think where the plug should go where it could be easily removeable w/o breaking into the pipe. Unless it's a test for the gasket (but if the only way to retrieve the plug is to remove the toilet...). Having just found water on the floor from my blocked toilet, perhaps this test isn't such a bad idea!All the best...
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.
Have you read the Ohio code and confirmed that this test is required? A lot of times a inspector has his own agenda and makes his own code up, [Been there]. The only thing that you can do in that circumstance is to bite your tongue and do what he wants if it won't cost too much, you got to suck up as much as you can to get the job done. I feel for you. Lots of luck.
The only way this is going to work is if you plug EVERY drain in the house that is below the level of the toilet. No need to plug the vent. You're filling the entire line with water, just like a "poor man's" pressure test.
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
I'm not filling the entire line with water, I'm just raising the water in the toilet bowl. Because drain is block, and the vent is block, there's supposed to be even pressure in the lines. You don't flush the toilet, just let lightly lift the lever to floor the bowl. If it's done' correctly, it's not supposed to go down. (The test is supposed to hold for a minimum of fifteen minutes. I don't know if the there's a leak in my vent lines somewhere, of if one of the flooring subs nailed a drain line.
You either have to get the line essentially full of water up to the toilet or pressurize the entire system to the two inches or whatever that you're overfilling the toilet. Achieving that much pressure will require plugging all the drains and then running enough water into the drain system to raise pressure that much.Some drains may have enough "head" in the trap to be OK without plugging, but many won't.
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No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
I appreciate you guys trying to get to the bottom of this mess. I have had success when I've plugged all the lower fixtures and did the test, but according to plumber who pulled this permit, it should hold regardless. The bowl will fill up, and then you can hear the faintest trickle, OR you'll hear the lav trap pulling air. That must be part of the problem.
As I wrote previously, after the rough-in, I pressurized the system to 10lbs, and it held for the required fifteen minutes.
This job has been especially frustrating because last year when I started it, I paid this same plumber to pull the permit under his company. The job was a full attic remodel. There was an existing bathroom in the attic that the woman wanted moved from the center of the attic to the corner. The plumber came and looked at the stack, and wrongly assumed that the existing bathroom was properly plumbed. (It wasn't because it was basically tied into the stack that serviced the bathroom on the second floor beneath the attic. All new bathroom have to tie in UNDER the bathroom on floors beneath them.) He didn't notice this IMPORTANT fact. We went about the business of roughing in the entire bathroom only to find out at inspection that it wouldn't work. The fix was a nightmare, that included flipping all the fixtures in the bathroom and finding a way to the basement to tie in to the stack from the third floor! Talk about ruining your budget/profit on a job. This, in top of the fact that the plumbing inspector knows what's up: I was doing the plumbing under the permit pulled by a plumber. OF course, you'd think that the plumber would have been more thorough, but that's another story. This led to me decided to just get my plumbing license and avoid all the hassle.
Sorry to babble, but thought you might like to know WHY I'm eager to get this job completed....
Thanks to everyone for helping with my problem. I'll keep you posted how it ends up!
My nephew, who weighs about 350, works for me on a semiregular basis and I usually let him take care of the "final bowl test".
OK,...sorry for that. I've never heard of this test before. Are you sure its not one of those apprenticeship tests, like connecting shoreline or going down to the supply house for some fallopian tube?
OK,...I aplogize for that as well. I suspect one of the business minds here is going to hammer you for letting the customer hold out that much money for so long. If not you might want to scan the archives in the business folder.
Tom
Cooper13 did you ever pass the bowl test?
I’m curious to know if cooper13 ever passed the bowl test. I’m in a similar situation. The new inspector in Anderson township (Cincinnati,OH) doesn’t seem to know physics very well. This test is impossible if you have 5 bathrooms in a 3 story building with long waste and vent runs throughout. I agree that the only way to achieve this goal is to plug EVERY drain in the house that is below the level of the toilets. Good luck if the test is performed on the top floor.
Been working in remodeling in Cincinnati for 42 years, inspectors have always asked for bowl test. If wax ring is not perfect you will not pass this test. You cap stacks, plug clean outs and your bowl should hold water above normal fill line for 15 minutes. Usually the inspector starts with filling bowl, looks at whatever else he needs to test then comes back to bowl to see if it held. If it’s good he will put a passed sticker on the pipe and move on. Never failed this test so I don’t know what they do if you fail. I perform the test myself the day before inspections.