Plywood Vs Particle Board For Laminate Countertop
I’m going to make some replacement countertops for my kitchen. I wanted to do solid surface but maunfacturers won’t sell to you unless you are certified. There are web sites that will sell to anybody but color choices and supplies may be limited. We’ve decided on laminate and I’ll make hardwood edging. I’m trying to decide between using plywood and particle board. I read a book on the subject and the author, Herrick Kimball, and blogs seem to favor particle board. Is it price? Stability? I do a lot with plywood but have never used particle board for anything. Is particle board dusty…like mdf? I don’t mind paying the price for plywood. Would appreciate your thoughts and experiences. Thank You. I’ve been sittong on the fence but need to get going on this.
Replies
mdf
MDF is my choice. You seem to imply that particle board is something different. I have not even seen true particle board since the introduction of MDF, but I haven't looked. For me the choice is stability and machinabilty. With wood edges machinability is not so much of an issue. Under properly applied laminate moisture is not an issue. I like the surface of MDF for its perfect consistancy.
Mike
Mr Kimball makes the distinction between MDF and particle board. I have seen particle board but there seem to be different grades...laminate substrate grade being the one to use. I agree with you on MDF and use it for jigs, etc.....I'm in the process of making a laminate seeming jig out of it but I try to use it as little as possible due to the fine dust. But for flatness and price you can't beat it. Another show stopper for MDF is what water will do to it.....these counters will be in the kitchen.
Edges
If you have a contiuous laminate glued to it water infiltration is no issue. If you use laminate edges the top should over lap the edge and shed water without infiltration. Water and plywood don't mix well at the edges either. Lately I've used WilsonArt prefabbed beveled edges that either just glue on or fit in a rabbet. For these or ordinary laminate edges I machine the edge of the substrate with a router and straight edge to ensure a perfect edge. I wouldn't do that with plywood. For wood edges plywood would be ok.
Until they were replaced with "quartz" about 8 years ago we had "continuous" laminate countertops, where the laminate was wrapped around the curved front edge and up the backsplash. These were almost impervious to water. I say "almost" because, in front of the sink, water that dripped over the edge ran back under the front edge and soaked into the flakeboard piece that ran along the front, on the underside. Over 30-odd years this caused the flakeboard to swell in that area -- not enough to be really bad, but enough to notice.
If one were going to install this sort of countertop I would strongly suggest water sealing the underside in front of the sink area.
Plywood?
Would plywood have been better around the sink, exposed to water? I suspect that given the same conditions, plywood would delaminate. Meticulous waterproofing is essential no matter what the substrate.
If you are worried about plywood, seal the edges first. I have a 26 year old deck on my pontoon boat, with 8000 hours in salt water and the plywood deck is doing fine.
But I would bet that it's marine plywood.
Nope, it is MDO (one side). There is nothing magic about marine plywood anyway except that it is A/A and no voids. There are plenty of grades with no voids, exterior glue and the "A" finish is meaningless to me. The main thing is to seal the edges and all penetrations. I just used an exterior grade, latex paint thinned 50:50 so I could shoot it and let it soak in well.
I am not quite sure how a homeowner or even cabinet shop could use sheet stock laminate and get it totally water tight at the joints where the edge meets the top. That is where I see particle board substrate fail. The problem is, the worse it gets, the worse it gets. The first little hint of water witll blow the joint open, then it goes down hill fast from there.
Its sounds like you're describing Harborite.
Harborite?
DanH wrote:
Its sounds like you're describing Harborite.
Harborite sounds like formica or any other laminate. You glue on the edge, router it flust to the top surface , you lay on the top covering the edge and you use a router to finish it. That joint is still not going to be a perfect seal.
Harborite is nothing like Formica. It's what they made PT boats out of. Plywood with a tempered hardboard ("Masonite") outer surface, all bound together with heat/pressure-treated resins. 30 years ago they were still making sailboat centerboards and the like out of the stuff. Don't know if it's still made.
That does sound like MDO plywood but the stuff on my boat only has rthe overlay on one side (top). I got it cheap for a construction site where they ordered too much. It is used for concrete forms where you want a glass like finish (at least there).
They also use it for billboards
Painted edges
I don't think painted edges would do very well if one were using solvent based contact cement.
I would never use anything but plywood. I have multiple projects where I used laminate and every one is with plywood. The kitchen counter is laminate over laminate with maple edging.
I know every one loves MDF but to me it is PIA. Heavy, dusty and do not even mention the issues with water infiltration.
Regardless of what you use I would prime every edge for long term durability.
Jim
I have used mostly "industrial flake", what countertop pb is called here. Comes 25" by 8' & 12'. There's also a 30" width in those lengths. 4x8's also available. I get mine from Toledo Plywood Co., a local lam and plywood supplier.
Much more dense and flat than usual underlayment type of particle board. And, a bit more resistant to water intrusion. Even so, at sink cutouts and the rear edge of the top where it butts to the wall I seal (smear) caulk over the cut edge so water that might get there doesn't make it blow up like a poisonous toad.
Hello Calvin,
Haven't been in touch for a while. What have you been up to....working, travelling, both?
I see that the big boxes advertise a particleboard countertop. Would this be the same situation as with plywood i.e. good stuff at the lumber yards vs imported junk at the big boxes or would the big box particleboard countertop be as good as the lumber yards?
Jim
JIMMIEM wrote:
Hello Calvin,
Haven't been in touch for a while. What have you been up to....working, travelling, both?
I see that the big boxes advertise a particleboard countertop. Would this be the same situation as with plywood i.e. good stuff at the lumber yards vs imported junk at the big boxes or would the big box particleboard countertop be as good as the lumber yards?
well, a little work
pages and pages of print
as much golf as possible
some travel, visits with friends
fall outdoor maintainence.
a couple funerals.
I don't know the quality of the box store material or source or condition once set upon by the public. I do know the story at my supplier.
apart from that, I long ago realized the importance of my choice of suppliers of material to my business. They join my stash of subs in making and keeping the value I brought to my customers.
That means a heck of a lot in the long run.
How have you been?
solid surface counter top IS available
Let me point out that Manrads does indeed sell granite and other stone-type, "solid surface" countertops that YOU can install. I've happily done a number of granite installations without incident. Joining pieces is not that difficult PROVIDED you know what you are doing and have helpers on hand for heavy lifting. I prefer the use of templates to accurately size my tops. I transfer the patterns to the c-top and grind/sand/seal to fit. If you are willing to assume the risks (crushed fingers, damage to cabinets and so forth), there is no reason you can't take on the job. Have fun and...uh...be super careful! Lots can go wrong...everything can go right...the choice is yours.
Mel Fros froscarpentry.com
Manrads? Did you mean Menards? If so, I'm in Massachusetts and we don't have any here. Are the solid surface contertops you are referring to preformed/postformed? Do you know the brand names e.g. Corian? Thank You.