With work getting slow I have a meeting with a local pole barn company tomorrow to start subbing some of the builds for them. We have built 2 24×40 pole barn houses this year. I have never worked where someone else tells me what I will make on a job. I am interested to know thoughts on two things.
What are the advantages/disadvantages of working this way?
How many man hours would you say it would take to build a 24 x 24 pole barn? I will have a three man crew on the job. I know we will get faster as we do more of them, just looking for some input on the initial timeline. There is no floor, or interior work. We are simply setting post, framing the outside, doing all the metal work, and installing a man door, 2 overhead doors, and 3 small windows.
I am assuming I will not make money on the first two or three, but I don’t want to lose money doing these things either.
All help appreciated.
The bad news is you’ve done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
“IdahoDon 1/31/07”
Replies
it's a downward spiral...
do you want to maintain your standards ?
if the company you are interviewing is interested in quality work..... try it out
if all they are interested in is low bid, is that what you want ?
They want quality that is for sure. We have had this discussion about quality.
I will not sacrifice my end result for anyone.
As far as low bid goes, I don't get to bid it. They tell me that I get "x" amount of dollars for a certain size barn. That is a concern of mine more then quality.
Make sense?The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
What are the advantages/disadvantages of working this way?
The advantages?
1. You have work.
2. You get paid.
Disadvantages
1. They don't pay you.
Friend of mine got into something similar with modulars.
Started out well, but went into the ditch later.
If you don't mind the work, and they pay on time & enough to make it worth doing, it beats "got no work" -- just don't let the pay schedule slide.
Joe H
I do quite a bit of modular work. Put garages and porches on mostly for the company that sells modulars. Difference is I set my price on those. They do set the price when all I do is side the ends or something like that, but I dont do that very often.The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
So you know the drill.
Pole barns aren't any different insofar as the business end goes, so you've answered your own question.
Joe H
I don't really have any answers for you. I just thought of a few questions that you should probably ask before you commit. field laminated posts or 6x6s?Who pays for crane time to set the trusses?Any special bracing requirements that will take extra time?How are the purlins fastened? Hanger, toe nailed, or ???Screws or nails?.There are a lot of variations on how things are done. So I think asking questions is a good idea.
Did you hear about the blonde who put lipstick on her forehead?
she wanted to prove she could make up her mind...
The post are prelaminated by the pole barn company, made from kdat lumber.
Truss setting is up to me and my tractor, same way they do it. Unless the barn is big enough to need a crane.
Anything "special" is an extra that gets talked about before hand, says the owner.
Perlins are fastened with perlin hangers, like a double joist hanger.
Mostly nails, if screws there is more in my price.
They are offering 15% of total sale price. 24x40 with one man door and one slide door cost about $8100.00 That only gives me $1,200.00 in labor to build this barn and cover my overhead. I have not commited yet, seems a little light to me. He says that 4 of his guys could build that barn in 2 days. With no overhead and all paid equal that is only $150.00 per man day. Not sure what I am going to do yet. I could exist on that kind of money once we were efficient, but how long does that take, and will I go broke first are the things going through my mindThe bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
A 24X40 in two days with 4 guys seems impossible to me. But I'm certainly no expert on building pole barns.
Q: How do you change tires on a duck?
A: With a quackerjack.
That is my thought. I could see three days, if the crew had gelled together for a quite awhile.The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
In this area, which is farm country, 2 days for a pole barn is about right. Lots of them go up. The people I know of who do it are less than 30 years old, single, and have adrenaline popping out of every pore. Fast, high risk, long hours, quick turnover. Some of them get turned into houses, or bale houses, or shops, or cattle storage - doesn't much matter at the putting-up stage. J
I didn't think anyone believed me on that.The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
The problem is.....i'm over thirty, have adrenaline only from 30% of my pores, I like sleeping till 7, and I hate turnover of my young guys. The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
this loks to me like one az busting deal for the money,i'd think it would almost pay that to hang the metal and roof,but hey things are slowing. if i was you i would just sit down with my guys and say" heres some work,we would have to bust our buts,if were not doing this we may be doing nothing.
you guys in or wait till something better comes along?larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
One guy has given me his two weeks notice as of an hour ago. One said I'm in for the long haul boss, pay me what you can, be fair and I stay. He's a good kid, that learns quick.
The quitter is my highest paid guy. He and I go back about 12 years. I was hired at the company he worked at to replace him. He was on my crew for many years, till I was forced to lay him off twice. we did all the side work together. We almost were partners in this business. I laid him off twice in the past year for different reasons. He may or may not change his mind. he is a freind, but he a big boy and can handle himself.The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
If these times are going to be the same as early 80's, you are probably better off shedding the $20 guy anyways. I'd divide the 1200 by 3. 1/3 goes for company (overhead and profit). The remaining 2/3 gets paid out in wages according to another formula. Foreman at $25, Apprentice at $13, Laborer at $10. Pay hourly till the money runs out. After that, everyone works for free till the job is done. Assuming that everyone works full time till it's done, the actual payout will be Foreman $416.66, Apprentice 216.66, Laborer 166.66. Add it all up and you are paying out $800 total. Some might say "that ain't fair". It might not be but until someone offers something better, that's the best you can do. If you don't do that, you'll bankrupt your business and "how will that work out?"Also, it should be noted that all thinking should revert to days instead of hours i.e. "lets get this thing done in two days so we can make decent money". That means "looooooooooooooooong" days.Or, walk away from the deal.
So, in your scenario, which I like. Am I the foreman, since I work, or am I paid from overhead?The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
The foreman is direct wages. That money comes from the labor pool, not the overhead pool.
Thats what I thought you were saying, but I was making sure.
The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
When you analyze the numbers, they make sense. Your hard costs are $800. You are marking up those costs 50%, which is somewhat low but do able. Your selling price is $1200. Now you have to get the job done at a fixed fee of $800. You could let the kids do it all for the $800 but they can't do it without your expertise and equipment. Therefore, you are taking the biggest portion of the labor out of the kitty because, well...you are the one with the tools, knowledge and skill. If they don't like the deal, they don't have to take it. Then, find two other guys that will take it. Now you know how carpenters survive these times. It's feast or famine and unfortunately we are in the famine stage.
I have decided to try one and see what happens.
I have a few other bids out that are promising, got two calls today, who knows maybe I wont have to build barns just yet.
I have to call the barn guy in the morning and give him my answer for at least the first barn.The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
Doing one to see how it goes is probably;t a good idea. What the heck - If nothing else it's a learning experience...
Flying saucers are real. The Air Force doesn’t exist.
Just an update........
I tried to get 18% after much thought and personal debate. I feel that is low still, but was willing to try it. He declined and said he would call me if they get where they need a different crew and he would give a different guy the try since he would take the offer of 15%
Here is why i think 15% is to low, no matter what.
lets assume the building is sold for 10K
he is offering me 1500 for labor
he woudl pay his crew 1300.00 then he covers the matching taxes, comp, and liability insurance. If I was paying out 1300 in labor it would cost me a minimum of 1950 (1300x1.5)
If I got 1800 (18%) that is 1.5% lower then I figure I need. I was therefore willinh to adjust my personal income to absorb the 150 I wouldnt be getting, and I would have 0% profit worked in at the beginning of this endeavor. I am willing to start at 18% with the understanding he worked us up to 21%.
I know from an inside source that is reliable that this company figures 33% above their cost. Throwing me 6% extra only changes their bottom line by 2-3%
Does my math make sense, dont want to give away my work just to be busy and lose money.The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
Your math makes so much sense I wonder why your still considering doing the deal, its so tight that on a set of perfect conditions you still wont be making any money.
Granted I'm not a business owner but I figure out prices for myself on small jobs and I cant run the numbers that tight because there is no room for error and undoubtly there will be times something will come up where you need a little breathing room. If everything works out perfect you take your breathing room money and put it back into the business.
Even if you work up to the 21% that's only 150.00 more than you need to break even! Break one tool you need to do the job and your loosing money again. Does what I'm saying make sense? I defiantly understand that work is not abundant and you got to get creative but you don't want to work for nothing or worse do you?
I agree with you. You agree with me.
Weird thing is that I have been asked to bid 3 jobs since this discussion stared. Two of them are not competitive bids and I shot high on the guesstimate. The other one is competitive, but I am comfortable that I can land it. If I only get one of these jobs I'll be fine untill christmas.
Things are looking up this week.The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
Man thats great to hear, thats one reason why at this point I dont mind working for someone, my boss dosent hang out at the job too much, he trusts us - and hes out worrying about billing and estimates to keep us busy. I feel for anybody who is a good contractor competing in this tough market right now, everybodys scared to spend money and getting loans is tough right now. Hope it works out for you.
It sounds like a tough nut to crack. I'd probably split that job into pieces and offer it up piecework fashion to the guys. Or, I'd slice a chunk out of it for overhead, then split what's left with the guys. I'd then start thinking about how I'd get that thing done as fast as humanly possible.
Funny you should mention that.
I just got off the phone with a couple of the guys and asked them if they would do piece work, then I came here.The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
When prices go south, that's the only way you will save yourself from going broke because of the overhead factor.
It seems work is going south, prices arent far behind would be my guess. Hate to feel like I'm cheating the guys because I got a job for to cheap don't/can't pay them enough. make sense?The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
Just as an observer I would say you wont be making enough off these to pay yourself and 2 guys. Thats just the way it looks, I know after a couple youll have an efficiant system and go like he!!, but there is no wiggle room, what if you have a real bad site, or some other unforseen conditions? I know everything is slow and you gotta do what you gotta do but maybe you could negotiate to work off a solid number instead of percentages and then go from there.
The money just seems low, what do guys (employees) in your area make per hour on average, or even your guys?
Don't know the local average around here honestly.
My newbie makes 10, next one up makes 13, the full fledged not quite a foreman makes 20.
Sound fair for southern Illinois?The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
Without reading the rest of the posts, I'm telling you $1,200 for that job is all the info needed.
No way, you're not even gonna make fuel & lunch money.
Joe H
He says that 4 of his guys could build that barn in 2 days. With no overhead and all paid equal that is only $150.00 per man day.
Guess I'm wondering why he needs you?
If he's paying WC and SS and the rest, what is he paying his help?
Joe H
His help get 13% divided evenly he says. Add in comp and matching taxes and he saves money paying me 15%.
this looks more and more like a no go to me.The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
Are you set up to do it efficently?
do you have the equipment?
I know people who tried to build pole barns using a farm tractor, front end loader, back hoe, and skid steer..
None of those are the right equipment for the job.. And the flailing they did trying to build on time and on schedule showed..
You need a telehandler.. Good news there are a lot of them out there really cheap.. Pretty hard to wear them out.. just make sure all the systems work without leaking and don't under any circumstances buy one of the imported ones like Caterpillar JCB Manitou etc..
I'd do a lease with the option or rent to apply sort of deal to ensure that you can make money doing this and you don't wind up owning equipment with no place to make it pay..
A telehandler would be nice, but isn't gonna happen, at least right now. Pole barns are built everyday around here with tractor that has auger, forks, and a gin pole. We are talking barns that take 2 or 3 days. Paying to move a telehandler would eat my small profit.
I used a telehandler for many years on everything I could when I was an employee, I do not have funds to make this happen now.The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
I wouldn't worry if you're only committed to two barns at this point..
What you lose compared to using a telehandler won't be significant enough to justify. However I sold enough to skeptics over the years.. they were the ones who told me about the time savings..
I forget the name of the company we used to buy our augers from for them but a lot of guys just took their existing auger and made it adaptable..
They also used a bucket for moving crushed rock into the pole barn most telehandlers handle 1+ yards of rock with ease and do a nice job of spreading it too.. that and a 10 foot work platform (I used to say 16 foot but none of those are legal anymore.. )
IF you find enough market that it seems worth while to you The twin cites is flooded with cheap telehandlers.. I've seen some desperite enough to sell a few year old machine for $20-30,000 when they cost $85,000 new..
You don't need a 8000 pound machine most of those were used for masonary reasons.. a 6000# is plenty and something like Gehl's 553 would be perfect.. Small enough to haul around yourself and still capable of working at 34 feet.. with a jib you can set trusses up to 46 feet high..
I am not committed to any just yet.
I know a telehandler would be nice. I also know of many pole barn companys that only use tractors for polebarns. I don't know of one that uses a telehandler.
I could use a telehandler on just about every job I do. The problem is that it adds to my overhead in a crappy economy, and the crappiness is why I am considering building pole barns as a subcontractor.The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
best.... as you know... people can get hurt building pole barns... does your overhead include W/C for all your guys.... or are they all Independent Contractors ?
i don't see enough reward to compensate for the riskMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I could if the market was tight.. it's either make do, adapt, or get out of the business in a lot of places..
Around here the pole barn business is dog eat dog since so many contractors are floundering..
But dog eat dog is better than getting eaten up with no work..
Yes I have WC on everyone. It cost me 17/100. If we didnt have that we could make money doing this (not a real option).The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
I understand. If you found the right piece and put it on a 60 month contract it would add nearly $500 a month to your overhead.. easy to make that up if your busy but really tough if the work isn't there.
I don't see how you can get on done in 2 days with no equipment.
They just built one down the road from my house. Probably 30x60 or so. 4 guys with a telehandler, and off road man lift. Took them over two weeks, and they seemed to have a pretty good system.
It's not too late, it's never too late.
I almost committed to that back in the 80's. Luckily, I had on my payroll a former forman for a co. that built them.
The upshot is, I was glad I didn't do it. The money isn't right. Now if they paid you the same as the guys that worked for them for 3 years, different story.
The local co. had 2 different rates. The beginning rate, where they didn't pay enough, and the real rate. Percentages suck. You want firm prices for everything you do. They should be able to give you a rate sheet. The problem with % is, what if the saleman had to short a job to get the sale, on a % basis, you have to take the short bid. The other problem is, are they realy telling you how much they are seling the job for? In my experience, a lot of former tinman in the job of selling pole barns. Do you get my drift?
I have a tractor like everyone else around here has. I dont have a telehandler. Auger the holes, raise trusses with gin pole on the front, forks to unload building from truck and move mat'l.
All we would do on our end of construction is:
Auger holes and set post
Put girts on post
Set trusses
Perlins between trusses
Roof metal
Wall metal
Build sliding door and install
Install walk door.
I have seen this done in 2 days, just dont know if I could do it and make money. Post frame builders aren't carpenters ( at least around here) they are just barn builders.
Building is 24x40 with 8' walls
Do you now think it is possible for a four man crew to build this barn in 2 days and make any money? I am still stewing over this and have to answer him on Thursday morning.
The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
Edited 10/7/2008 8:25 pm by bstcrpntr