I’m located in western PA. Thinking about having a pole building constructed – 1/2 shop, 1/2 photography studio for my wife.
Entire structure needs heat for sure, A/C only on studio side. I’ll ask those questions in another thread.
Looking for ideas on insulating the perimeter walls. Any ideas?
The ceiling will likely get blown-in cellulose.
Self-installing an HVAC system requires a lot of thought and planning.
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Replies
Well, terminology may be a hurdle.
Down here in Texas, a pole building is just that, posts and a roof (it's the ultimate vented roof situation). Insulating the walls means building them first.
If you mean a shell building, like a PEMB, that's another range of buildings. If it's just metal tube sections with sheetmetal siding & roofing, then that's one answer (you'll need to "engineer" some support for some form of insulation.
If it's a wooden buliding, in a barn style, similar condition will likely apply--you'd need some sort of way to constrain the insulation, which will define/limit the insulation method.
If it's PEMB, I'd go with whatever roll insulation came with the package, the economy of getting it in one go, when the maximum access is available is cheap at the price.
For the photo space, I'd plan on just tipping up insulated walls within the shell. Sure, you lose a little internal footprint, but there's zero solar gain, so the walls can be skinnier than would be otherwise. I'd also plan for a flat top on the studio space, as that will make life much easier for the insulating, leaves a place to spot a/c equipment, and gains some storage space for the rest of the shop.
This would be a wood building - Likely pressure-treated laminated posts 8' on center and trusssed roof. Thinking of something in the 40 x 60 size range.
In most of the US a "pole building" is the posts and roof with siding of some sort attached. Around here the siding on a new pole building would be corrugated sheet.For the OP, I'd suggest first looking at what your pole building contractor has for insulation. I think that foil-faced batts attached via those glued-on spikes is fairly common.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I have to ask why a pole building if you plan to finish interior and heat it?
Can be simpler and cheaper to just build a platform framed structure, and probably better re insulation situation
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Well ballpark I got for 32 x 48 building with concrete slab was $25 K.
I'd have a tough time doing it for that. And yes, I've seen their work and it looks good.
That was just a shop for me, now the wife wants the studio, so now I'm thinking 40 x 60.
Edited 10/14/2009 5:06 pm ET by wivell
That is just shell. Building inside of one to have the insulated finish is harder than just building..., but I understand the whys and all. Just so you know the total net may be higher time you are done.
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Piffin,I understand your comment.
There should be some cost savings via no foundation work.Finishing the inside should be nearly the same whether it's stick framed or pole building, no?
You can build a conventional stud wall building that has point loads every 8 ft if that is what you want. Same foundation as the pole building but the exterior walls are already there for the insulating.
no.With the pole building, you are using poles to support the roof, and you generally have some diagonals for wind bracing to stabilize it.Then when you want to finish inside, you still have to frame walls within that structure, so you have a lot of small walls that take time to fit to the shell. You are also likely to have exposed poles to work trim around. This takes time. You basically build the exterior walls twice - one for the shell, then again for the interior.If you do this interior work yourself, you can possible save some money if you put no value on your labor.But with a conventionally framed structure, you build the walls once and are done. They are straight and the insulation fits well.
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As a take off on what fingerandtoes said, you can put up your shell and slab and then tip up stud walls between the post. If you use 2x6 stud walls and 2x6 post in the barn, things match up for a nice interior finished surface and give you larger wall cavities to pack the insulation in.
If you use the standard vinyl face roll insulation with the pole barn, you can use unfaced f/g, BIBs, or cells directly over it and no vp on the inside surface of the wall.
That said, I'm in agreement with Piffen. By the time you add the additional cost of stud walls, insulation, drywall, electric, plumbing, etc., the additional foundation cost becomes a much smaller % of the total cost.
I have two standard framed structures on CMU foundation walls with steel siding (like a pole barn). Both are finished inside and both are heated and have a/c. The outside look says "pole barn", but the inside finish and operation cost cost says "well planned and executed". Sometimes adapting a structure from it's designed pupose to another ends up costing you more.
Wivell,When I ran a lumberyard I had lots of opportunity to estimate polebarn versus stickbuild where the owners intent was to insulate & finish.In the end framed buildings to be interior finished with sidewalls up to 10 or even 12 foot could be framed and finished for the same or less money than a polebarn.Polebarns have their own set of problems when it cpmes to moisture control and structural issues if modified for different loading.My opinion is that polebarns are utility buildings and should not be expected to be as good an envelope as a framed structure. FWIW..............Iron HelixPS...my conditioned shop (24x60) is framed on slab and the attached materials and equipment sheds (20x60) are polebarn.
Conditioned shop framed on a slab - is the slab thickened on the perimeter?
Any foundation? How are you heating the building? I would think our climates are similar - Southern IL & Southwestern PA
wivell... the savings is in the foundation.... no foundation sub.... less concrete ( assuming you need a 4' frost wall )
i think i can build your pole barn for less money than conventional
4x6 poles .... 2x10 PT bottom skirt.... infill framing between the posts
insulated slab inside the 2x10 bottom skirt..
any 2d floor and roof is all conventional framingMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I was thinking of the infill studding that you mentioned.
Most pole buildings I've seen have the exteriors purlins to attach siding. Can you blow cellulose against that?
How about interior strapping or purlins - not needed I would think?
Wivell,I would think your climate is colder than southern Illinois. Frostline footings here are set at 18-24 inches.My shop slabs are footed and/or thickened at the edges in a monolithic pour.
Heating is by a gas "modine" style heater. Cooling is by a 19k window AC.
Heating and cooling is "ON" only when the shop is to be used and the outdoor temp is not comfortable. In the winter, without heat the lowest temp interior temp is about 42.Walls are r13 and ceiling is r19 and r30. There are 4 walkin doors, two 14x8 insulated garage doors, 4 double hung single glazed windows, and about 2'x24' of 1/4" plate glass between studs in the upper 1/3 of the rear wall...........Iron HelixPS...one of my recent clients struggled with your decision about framed versus pole. In the end he decided the end costs for a 30x40x10' walls were about the same, but the end results for a shop/garage and studio were best served by framed/sheathed/building paper and metal skinned building on slab w/ footing. He was going to do the interior finish. Contracted pricing was about $21k, including foundation and concrete.
Sound like my shop. 30x42', 2x6 walls@ 10' high. 1/2" rigid foam over sheating + R19 and dw interior with r-30 BIB in the attic. Seven Semco double hung windows, 9x8" insulated overhead door and one walk thru door. Hi-eff. propane furnace and 13 SEER a/c only operated like yours, when absolutely needed (meaning DW is working in there with me).
Built DW a 900 sq. ft. building of similar construction on an insulated slab and 32" insulated block foundation. Improved my techniques on that one by better air sealing and such.
Operating cost of both buildings is less than $1000/yr. I don't think I could achieve that level with a pole barn without a lot of detail planning and additional work.
Dave,
What was the rough cost of your 30 x 42 building?
Adding the 1/2" of rigid foam over sheathing - what exterior trim detail did you have around openings ?
Just a WAG on the cost, but less than $20K, probably closer to $16-17K. I did everything myself, except the poured floor.
Mine is a simple gable with 2' soffit on each side. Gable ends are tight rakes ( no over hang). I nailed my purlins over the sheathing board and hung the steel siding on it, From outer metal skin to inner dw finish the walls are 8 1/2" thick. I blocked around all the windows and doors outside and used standard trim made for pole barns and metal buildings.
On the walk through door I took the brick mold off the outside and added 4/4 cedar jamb extentions with glue and pocket screws, then reapplied the brick mold. If I had thought of it in time I would have just used a 4/4 x4" square cedar trim and wraped it with brake metal. Would have looked nicer than the painted brick mold.
I installed all the windows on the blocking surrounding the openings and added jamb extentions inside. I got the windows right after I put the roof on and before starting the siding. Since I knew my final wall thickness I just cut biscuit slots on the inside jambs in preperation for the extensions. After the dw was finished and painted I went back and custom milled my jamb extensions to match whatever thickness variation I found at each window. Cut matching biscuit slots, glue and clamped them in place with a couple of battens over night.
With 10' ceilings I was able to just make a straight run of duct work down the center and plug diffusers into each side of it. The only other branch coming off the plenum is to the bathroom containing a toilet, sink and shower.
DWs' studio/kennel building is the same construction, but it a T shaped building with a 30x14 covered deck/porch on the front for the dog runs. It is smaller than the shop, but cost about as much because of material increases between the time the two structures were built.
If I had them to do over I would add overhangs to all the gable ends and break the siding up witha wainescote look by using differnt colors for the bottom and top panels. I would also add the perimeter foundation wall insulation and under slab insulation in the shop. Even though the buildings are different sizes but very much alike in construction, I can feel the difference in comfort with the additional under slab and foundation wall insulation. Her HVAC system also runs less and stays off longer than the one in my shop. Partially because of her 8' ceilings, but the comfort "feel " is from the less cold floor.
Thanks for the info Dave.
So insulated slab in building #2 but no radiant heat ? Also you used purlins nailed onto exterior sheathing. I haven't seen that. Any wrap, tyvek or similar, on the exterior?
I'm not against framing a building. In fact, I could handle that my self. I'm not equiped for the pole building construction though but the pricing I got was only a few thousand more than a material package.
I used tyvek over the sheathing and ran it up and over the the blocking around the windows and doors. Then added the 1/2" Tuff-R foam. At the time it came with one side foil faced and the other a black plastic. I installed the foil side out, and with the siding over the 1 1/2" thickness of the 2x4s I have a decent radiant barrier and with the joints taped and everything flashed correctly I also have a rain screen wall.
The original purpose of the insulated slab was for radiant heat in the studio/kennel. The guy that quoted my house system was in the process of moving his shop and never returned my calls, so I moved on to a couple of other HVAC contractyors for quotes. Sticker shock but the skids on that plan. I but in a propane hi-eff furnace, a/c and duct work for less than half of the radiant quotes I got. My primary guy called eventually and gave me a number that made me ill. His price was a few hundred under what I had already spent :-(
The only real issue of framing a building yourself is setting the trusses. Rent some scaffold and call some friends and a 30x60' building will take you a good day if you muscel everything. Rent an lift and scafold and your down to a half a day with a five man crew. Call in a small truck crane and you can do it with four guys and the operator. Money is about the same for all but the muscle option, but you may pay for that the next day:)
I'm getting old enough now to look closely at subbing out some things. It is hard for me to get over the hump of knowing I can still do all that stuff, just not as fast as I use to. I also get stuck on paying out hard earned $$ for sometimes lesser quality work and going through the hassle of tossing the bums off the job.
Edited 10/16/2009 2:58 pm ET by DaveRicheson
I think I would just have trusses lifted by truck. Did that a few years ago for my 2 story 24 x 32 attached garage. Truss Co. only charged $75/hr while on site. Took 3 hours with myself and 1 neighbor (farmer who is handy). I have radiant in that garage via an indirect fired water heater using a zone from the house boiler. Works well - I installed all tubing and manifolds, local plumber did final hookup.
Added A/C with a hot water coil for 2nd floor finished space. Radiant works well but I'm not sure I would do it again.
Look at this site.
http://www.metalbuildinginsulation.com/vinyl-insulation.html
Yeah I visited that site before actually posting here.
Not sure the nail & plastic washer attached of wide blankets would really allow for easy finishing of wall areas.
I worked in a building where that insulation was the wall. It's not bad.
Yeah, that's more or less what I suggested right at the start of this thread. Not really the right thing if you want an office, or sleeping quarters, but fine for a shop or warehouse setup.Plenty of variations on that, and I see it done all the time in steel buildings -- no reason it wouldn't work just as well in a pole building.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Yes, I worked in a steel industrial building insulated that way. The insulation was fine. What I really hated was the lights.
we've done residential pole building additions
the 1/2 wall sheathing gets nailed to the purlins... the 2x4 infill wall ( or 2x6 if you orient the 4x6 poles the other way )
the wall can be blown with cellulose just like a regular framed wallMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
around here, pole buildings are usually built with a 2x10 or 2x12 fastened on each side of the posts to carry the roof trusses... with your method it seems that the inner member would protrude past the interior wall plane.
how do you get around that?
turn (rotate ) your posts on the bearing walls ... if your short wals are 6x4... make your long (bearing ) walls 4x6...
then the interior ledger gets fastened to the 6" side , padding it in .... the infill wall can still be a 2x6 ....
the infill wall will frame at 5 1/2....the ledger will frame at 5".... all it needs is a 1/2" pad to bring it flushMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"the 1/2 wall sheathing gets nailed to the purlins... "
So you were using 1/2" plywood sheathing on the exterior walls?
Most pole buildings in my area don't have sheathing anywhere.
The trouble with that system in either wood pole barnes or steel construction is the insulation is compressed almost to nothing at each purlin or as the siding or roof is applied over it. The results is a thermal bridge at each place the insulation laps over a framing member.
I saw a thermal image ofa steel building we put up many years ago. The hot spots made an almost perfect x-ray type picture of the "bones" of the building.
The other problem with the vinyl coated insulation is at each edge of the 4' or 5' wide role. There is a stable flange about 4" wide on each side. As the insulation is rolled out or hung across the framing members the flanges are pulled up or out toward the unfaced side and stabled together. This is suppose to seal each edge to its' neighbor and make a continouse air and vapor barrier. Even with the best of installs the system doesn't meet its' own claims for an air barrier or vp.
Over all I would guess the total R value for a roof or wall using that system is somewhere around and R-7 or less. Not bad for a wharehouse, barn or large industrial building with large heat sources within, but for a small shop that is going to be heated to habitable temps it is way to low IMO (at least if I'm paying the bill).
BTW, I've propably helped build 30 or 40 arces of that type of structure. IMO it is just plane marginal construction for the money spent on a small building.
try this http://www.chandlerdesignbuild.com/files/PoleBarnOutbuildingsDetail.pdf
works for me, we put a PTAC HVAC in there and it's hot when we want, cool when we need it, dry and draws minimal power when we leave it for a while.
M
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
PTAC - acronym for ?
Packaged Terminal Air Conditioner -- A motel room unit.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Thanks for the definitionNot sure I would use one of those. I'm on a farm and have access to free natural gas.
those are the kind of pole buildings we build also... nice detailingMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
thanks, one of these days i'll re-frame the front porch to match the side porch. be wellMichael------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Nice looking building. Is 22"x22"x 10' (feet) a misprint on the pier dimensions?
thats 22"x22"x10"
good catch
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
I figured, but I'm no pro and you never know. Don't mean to hijack here but if you don't mind- do you sink your poles or set on top of the piers. Thanks, Dave
A "true" pole building has the poles sunk, since they provide the primary resistance to racking.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
a true pole building does indeed have the poles sunk...... but that doesn't mean they still can't sit on a footing
ours sit on a footing that is buried to 40"
so we have footings AND racking resistanceMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I was responding to crawdad's question.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
i was responding to your responseMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
No I get my rack resistance from the board sheathing. The poles are sitting on top of the footings and bolted down with simpson straps per my structural engineers specifications. I don't generally take racking strength from sinking the poles in the ground. When we do need racking strength for wind loads the easiest way to get it is to set three poles three feet or so away from each other at the corners on a trench footing 22"x10" to fit the angle bolted down with a dbl 3/4" treated ply sheer panel between the posts 4' tall on both sides of a PT 2x4 frame bolted to the footing and well secured to the 6x6 posts. I like pouring the concrete after the posts are up because I use the posts to form the concrete and I can backfill under the slab and use less concrete. These are usually pretty casual low cost accessory structures. But I've done them pretty classy with radiant heat etc. And yes, it is often cheaper to just pour a slab on grade and frame up 2x4 walls if cheap is your top priority.------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Thanks. I wondered as on your website you reference using local green lumber which I assume is not PT. Thanks to Mike Smith and Dan for methods also.
I've built a fair number of pole buildings that later had a slab poured, walls framed in then insulated. It is cheaper and more accurate to pour a slab, and stick build from there. With a pole building, you are burying a fair amount of expensive post, and rarely is a pole building as straight and true as a stick built frame. Filling in between the posts for insulation and finish was always a pain in the butt.