Client wants to build a pole barn/storage shed. He was thinking of just setting 6×6 PT posts in the ground.Dont you think it makes for a better job to set the post on piers of say sonotubes ? Just seems make for a longer lasting structure;easier to fix if say someone backs into a post; dont have to worry about longevity of treated post and makes layout easier. Any opinons? Thanks
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Replies
I recently read about a product called perma column. I t looks like a great solution to what you want to do.(or not do). There web site is http://www.permacolumn.com. It's a post anchor for direct install without the need for a foundation or additional concrete.
tree,
no.. setting them on piers destroys the lateral resistance of the poles buried in the ground..
we typically use PT 4x6 treated to .60 retention..
all materials for foundation work are supposed to be treated to .60
ground contact is .40..
common exterior PT framing is .25
here's a 24x36 pole building..
Mike,
I couldn't get the link that Thor posted to open.
I believe the product he mentioned is the same that I have seen in a publication called Rural Builder.
Perhaps you have seen it. The emphasis of this magazine seems to be buildings for agriculture and livestock, riding arenas and horse barns.
These columns are an industry standard according to what I am reading. I also believe that there are now issues with burying certain types of treated lumber, especially in ag. and animal uses.
Wouldn't proper bracing of a pole building take care of the lateral forces anyway?
The emphasis on the columns seems to be on uplift, with the engineering of the structure itself taking care of lateral forces.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
eric... you do it their way.. i'll stick to the tried and true.. 4x6 PT treated to .60..
i can get pole buildings approved without further engineering, as long as i conform to accepted practise..
that includes bury, footings, .60.. spacing of poles...etc.
if you guys want to deviate.. go right ahead.. as long as you can demonstrate it to the satisfaction of the authorities.. you're good to go..
the original question was : is it bad to bury posts ?.. the answer is no
i've seen lot's of timber frame buildings built and bolted to piers. all native oak... no PT. those are timber frame... which are different than pole buildingsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i'll stick to the tried and true
Gee Mike,
no reason to be so defensive.
I just thought someone might be interested in LEARNING something about NEW IDEAS.
Afterall, that's why we're here isn't it?
What happened to all the discussion about frost uplift on those poles? I remember a thread about that a while ago.
That is one of the main reasons I mentioned these precast piers.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
geesh eric..
here in RI the poles still have to have a footing.. we dig a hole 40" deep.. mix one 80# bag of quickcrete.. dump it in the hole.. tamp the top FLAT
next day we set the poles to our string line...since the footing is below frost.. there is no frost upliftMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Those pole footings can also be pre-made by putting 4-6" of concrete in a 5 gal bucket. After it sets up, pop it out and drop into the bottom of the hole and make sure it is setting flat. The size of the bucket will determine the size of the auger needed for the post hole digger. We welded extensions on the cutting teeth to get the diameter needed.
Just a bunch of farm boys putting up a 48'X138' pole building. We got the "pills" from our material supplier for a buck apiece maybe. It sure made the lining up of the poles a little easier. There are way too many poles in 48x138. <g>
Lefty - Lurker without an attitude or a clue
pre-cast "pills " are cool... long as you got a flat bottomed hole..
and the flat top of the footing sure makes it easier to dance the poles into placeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
All right you!
Pole Barn, Pole Frame..............
Take a look at these Mike. These are what Thor referred to.
http://www.permacolumn.com/
Sure looks like a pole barn to me, you can call it what you want. The name of the structure wasn't the point.
Do they have the lateral issue resolved with those big honking steel straps and bolts?
Of course the poles, or in this case the piers go below frost.
I guess you've never heard of frost getting a bite on a column and lifting it off the footing. That is what I was referring to about frost uplift.
There was some discussion about it here sometime back, I think Piffin was one of the big educators on that point.
If I've said it once, I've said it 100 times. For some things and people, this seems to be a difficult medium in which to communicate exactly what point you are trying to get across.
With all due respect Mike, your head is about as hard as mine!!
"I'll stick to tried and true." Yeah, now go throw away all your power tools. lol
Rural Builder. Good mag, I get it for free. Has some interesting articles and it's thin. Quick and easy. I've also been getting something called Coastal Living I think?? Deals with building issues in coastal areas.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
eric.. if you don't want to use .60 4x6 PT posts .. don't
i'll put my gun away.. i won't force you
hmmm......... i wonder which will last longer.. the .60 treated SYP..
or the steel column.......buried in the ground Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You're amazing Mike.
I must be a complete idiot too.
Did you even open the link or look at the picture of the CONCRETE COLUMN.
Or answer my question as to whether or not you thought that these columns would handle the lateral loads that you referred to. I asked for your judement Mike because I know that you are knowledgable.
Why is it that anytime I have something to offer or a question to ask in a thread where you are present, you become adverserial?
This isn't some fantasy product Mike. It's been the talk of the town amongst those building these type of structures.
In some locations it is no longer allowed to bury cca (it is still available in locations and in certain dim.) and some other types of treated materials, esp. where livestock is involved.
hmmmmmmmmm. I wonder what will last longer. That concrete column or a piece of pine, full of chemicals leaching into my water supply?
I don't get it. You obviously didn't even take the time to look at the product, but then why should you.
This is a really weird place sometimes. As long as I have been here, and never really rattled anyones cage, done my best to be polite and fit in, it is obvious that it is a club, and you must pass a test to be accepted into the BT Membership. Too bad.
I'm disappointed. This isn't the first time we've done this.
Don't treat me like some a hole because you don't agree with a point of view ( I wasn't asking you to) or my desire to bring forth some piece of information or a new product that you decide to poo-poo.
Sure hope that golf couse opens soon!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
eric.. of course i opened your link.. and it looked like steel... can i help it if my eyes are so bad i thought it was steel..
so , it's concrete.. 10,000 psi.. what the hell do those weigh. ?
don't complicate my life.... it's a POLE building
look
i've been building with PT since they started using it for residential const.
i love PT..
i'm not concerned about it leaching.. it doesn't leach..
now they've gotten rid of CCA so i'll have to switch to ACQ..
i'm not going to build pole buildings with the concrete bases... i'm going to do what i've done in the past..
you don't seem to grasp this.. pole buildings are great... if you want to put lipstick on a pig, be my guest..
i've been burying deck posts, hand rail posts, pole-building posts, every post you can think of since i got my hands on PT ... so stop with the lectures..
do what you want... you will anyways...
why do you always want to get in my face ?
i've put up about 5 pole-buildings and i've used poles for additions too.. i don't put my name on the contract unless i'm sure i'm going to be complying with good engineering practise and it will conform to code
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
UT Oh...I guess the "build my shop fest" won't include youse guys huh?I'll just lay up 4 course o' block and frame it..geezeushchistmas..Eric..love ya dude..but I was planning a pole in the ground..frost ain't a big issue..sorry for the sidejack..Mike.. love ya dude..but I was gonna get ya a fax#..(still will) btw, frost ain't a big tissue..sorry for the 'jack...Man. I wuz gunna let y'all sleep here in da house iffn ya came..I guess y'all need separate beds?Lemme know, the good spots are getting taken up fast. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
I have no idea what they weigh. I'm sure you need a machine to set them.
Not trying to complicate anything Mike, just put it out there for anyone that might be interested.
I thought they were interesting, and might be useful to someone. I guess Thor did as well.
If I were to build a significant 'pole' structure, I would consider using these. Im my opinion, they're better than burying wood in a lot of enviroments.
I'm not sure about the leaching thing.
Not lecturing Mike. You're poo pooing something that you have no experience with. I know the drill well. I don't like trying many new things. I like to stick with what I know works.
I thought they were interesting. They have received excellent reviews among the contractors using them. I don't know a thing about them other than that.
I am sure that these columns are accepted in codes and engineering or there would not be a reason to manufacture them.
I'm not trying to get in anyone's face Mike. I merely offered a resource of interest, and expected that it would be considered with the same consideration and respect that anyone else on this board deserves.
And on that point, again I emphasize that for some, this is NOT a good means of communicating. Maybe I have a problem; but with some people here, I can't seem to get a simple point across or get theirs at the same time.
You are one of them. And the sucky part is, that I know you have a lot of good information to share. No offense intended.
It's like there is some kind of cryptic language being used. I get frustrated tring to get a point across or get a direct answer to a direct question.
This may be why it seem to you like I am getting in your face.
That's about it.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
UMMMM...is this a bad time to intrject that I can score a bunch of Telephone poles for the hauling? jus wondering..umm...I wanna build a shanty..yeah..a shanty.24x36..like in brazil..like the mohicans did..we'll have a LOT of shrimpies (food) at or near the time of " OH-Hi-I didn't expect you" fest..wanna play with Mikey?I'll even let ya shoot him with the PC fin nailer from afar..c'mon..it'll be FUN..(see Mike can't run fast?..wham, ouch...wham, ouch..then the PC gun goes...thwawp..no ouch..)Mike grabs the ever present brush soaked in creosote and chlordane, and attaches it to a post anchor for concrete piers, and use's my dogs tail to catapault it your way..which you deftly defie with your conbination pickaxe/splinter removal tool...( which now sends the projectile into my only neighbor "Mrs. Hoovers" house...where I am hiding).The dogs get loose, they eat the shrimps, we are all too engaged in mortal combat to even feed ourselves, the sherriff comes and goes, and we continue to salivate at the prospect of being right.Did I say? I luv ya man?..Duane
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
g, I wus hopin I could cuddle up wit you!!
You know, I just walked away and came back and here you are! After that last post to Mike.............uuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh....................
Good timing dude, ur funny as hell, I needed that.
F- mike, he ain't sleping any where near me, what dripping all that acq stuff all around!
But I'll take that pc to bed with me just in case he tries to slip a lobster or something under my sheets.
That'll be a site. Me cahsing Smith around ole' Kentucky, him with a lobsta in each hand and me rapid firing 15ga finish nails at his sorry azz!!!
I don't know about this barn thing, it's gonna put the house next door to shame!!!
And your wife'll prolly never see u again.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
In my little part of WVA folks call it a "building".
As in : "Hello, is Brad there?"
"Hold on a sec, I think he's out in the building".
6 16 17 97 99
and we in KY ,,,,call it an "out building"..as in " he's still out building , the out building"..as majorly opposed to the out house..which means " he is , in the crapper"as minorly as opposed to ' I don't know where the flag he is, but his azz is DEAD..DEAD..when he gets home'"honey? can ya get me beer before it starts?"ahhh..the smells of servitude and lust, throw in some imbibed listerine and old spice cocktail...almost heaven, wet virginaa..blew ridge mounts and horse flys on yer keester...LOL( I was gonna apologixe..but. it's you..lol..you get it)
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
Had one a them horseflies (or mightabeena deerfly) bite me onna keister inna inopportune moment (Boy, that'll make ya git'a'long!).
Quick!6 16 17 97 99
I have no qualms of shooting them..horse flys are the bane of KY ( gee? mebbe it's cuz of the horses?)...7 1/2 shot...low brass. if they happen to be tailing a grackle...oh well. Collateral damage.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
Well gee....Mike and Eric back to your corners..... Built a bridge for the DEpt. of Interior and they specified .80 PT for the log cribs on either side and the main beams.
Frost heaving...mmm. maybe some years in WV but hey what the heck; they'll all heave the same amt so itll all stay level right!?Cement pills sounded interesting but digging any hole any diameter around here bigger than the post and tamping material is asking for it.Is it true that when u did a post hole in the dark of the moon u never have enough dirt to tamp back and in the ful moon too much?
In WV the "bulding" where"he is" is usually called a POUTIN House. All the old farmers had them to get away from the missus.Any old shed will do.
"Brad's Building" is where we have our "Rooster Parties".
I tried to rename it "The Potomac Highlands Gentleman's Club ', but it didn't stick.
"Likker in the front, Poker in the rear."6 16 17 97 99
The dogs get loose, they eat the shrimps, we are all too engaged in mortal combat to even feed ourselves, the sherriff comes and goes, and we continue to salivate at the prospect of being right.
LMAO
Or....
When in doubt, change the subject. Dig a big hole overlooking whatever you've got. Pond would be nice. Then invite everybody over to tie, form, fill, and tickle. A few bar joists and a rough slab on top. Cover and grow tomatoes up there. No freezing, no heating, no cooling, no noise for the neighbors to complain about, no reroofing, no painting, ....
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
We set them on concrete footings with the top of the footing below frost. We have used sonotubes when the ground was sandy and would fall in the hole, but even then we had at least 36" of the post in the ground. Drill hole, sink tube bottom of hole to surface, pour a 16'' plug of cement, let dry, drop in post and backfill tube. Keith
I'm going to play devil's advocate for a bit here. I've checked out a lot of those pre-fab/stick-in-ground-done-pick up tools and go home piers, and they are great, don't get me wrong. But for a storage shed/ outbuilding? We have always gone back to the time tested method of slapping on linseed oil onto some black locust poles with the bark removed. I once helped to restore a very old barn back to original, no steel connections or lags, all pegged with red oak pegs. About the only thing still in salvagable conditon were some sills and summer beams, most were sitting on, or buried in, centuries of animal manure and dirt and whatever else. There was no foundation to speak of. Lo and behold when we cleared away the gunk and jacked up the place the sills were still usable. I took a peice of one to a friend who is a wood guru and he had no problem identifying that tell-tale yellow green wood as black locust. That place had been around for at least two hundred years, if not more, with missing siding and roofing and rat poop. I've seen PT rot within a wet summer. There is a reason old timers said the stuff would last a year longer than stone. Anyhow, just remember, you don't have to go with the new fancy-smanchey products all the time. End of story.
well, there ya go, tree... all you need is some black locust
but they still gotta be buried.. or it ain't a pole buildingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Like scooter said.
There ought to be plenty of that in your area.
6 16 17 97 99
have a buddy that built his shop/storage building by pouring a pier with a hunk of galv channel iron w/holes drilled embedded in the concrete, and setting non-pt posts on the pier and bolting it to the iron - adequate diagonal bracing is planned into the stucture to prevent racking - physics of post on pier is different than embedded posts, but easy to compensate for...
physics of post on pier is different than embedded posts, but easy to compensate for...
If you don't, and I didn't, here's one possible outcome...
.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
indeed - that would be discouraging - - believe you shared the story in some depth here earlier, but I forget why it wasn't crossbraced - - snow load took it down? or wind and snow? - -
"there's enough for everyone"
Yup. The thread was stupid things we did.
Wind alone did it in. Crossbraced in one direction only. Wind came the other way. After the fact, the carps I worked with (I'm a shop only guy) mentioned wondering how it was going to hold up. Didn't occur to them to say something, me being the cabinetmaker and all.
When you don't even know enough to ask, it's a steep learning curve. First building I ever built, and rebuilt. Went to engineered cast-in-place concrete from there. Much simpler. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
david.. so true.. but then it ain't a pole building.. pole buildings have buried postsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I can accept that - - call it a post frame building then - - many of the details could be same/similar - -
"there's enough for everyone"
I have to back Mike's insistance on the correct use of the terminology "pole" building.
There is a major difference and yes, the poles which serve as the primary structural support needs to be buried.
As for 'hanging' the structure on the poles and being able to roof over first, this ofcourse can be accomplished without the poles buried.
However, the resistance to lateral raking and shearing will not be part of the structural strength that comes from a proper pole building.In addition to black locust, those on the left coast also have the lodge pole pine as an alternative but it probably should be treated and preferrably used in its rounded form.
It takes some digging around to obtain .60 treated posts in our neck of the woods (in southwest virginia), especially in long lengths suitable for burial with enough above ground for a high enough roof peak.We have a pergola constructed of native species consisting of true dimension 6x6 buried locust posts and the rest of the members are white oak with red oak for the top slats.
None of them are treated and we expect the locust posts to out live the house and the white oak beams and rafters should be around for a long time.
The red oak slats perhaps may need replacing at some point but not anytime soon.
(The structure could easily become an enclosed building in short order.)
Back in the mid-70s, when Wickes Lumber was in business, there was also a Wickes Buildings in Macon, don't know how widespread they were. I worked for W B for about six months one year. We went all over the state of Georgia, building "pole barns." Not all were used as barns, but we built them all the same way.We had a tractor with an auger bit to drill our holes. We put 8 x 8 posts in the ground, and put dry Sacrete, two big bags, all around them. We didn't even water it. "It'll soak up water out of the ground and set up," they said. I never checked to see if it was true. We put an inside and outside band of 2 x 10 around the tops of the posts on the two long sides, and set the trusses on that. Each truss sat beside a pole, so the pole came up beside the truss, to fasten it to. The tops of the poles were cut off a little below the top of the truss. Three or four rows of horizontal 2 x 4s along the outside to fasten metal siding to. Rows of 2 x 4s across the trusses to fasten metal roofing to. Sliding door on one end, pedestrian door on the side. Pretty simple to build.I also had the opportunity to build several more pole barns when I lived in Texas, all pretty similar to that described above, but with a shed roof, where the poles on one side are longer than the other. Same band of two x 10s, and rafters sitting on top of them. Pole barns are a very cheap way to build an outbuilding. You can build one in a day, roof and all. A weekend easy. I've seen some more elaborate ones, too. But, as Mike said, they all had posts sunk in the ground. That's what makes them what they are. Dig a hole, drop in a pole. Foundations don't get any easier than that.
Allen in Santa Cruz
You could build it like this...
Edited 3/1/2005 10:25 pm ET by BHACKFORD
Edited 3/1/2005 10:27 pm ET by BHACKFORD
Hooeee! BHACK,
them was some biggins'...
SanchoRon the caballero bowed low as he waved his sombrero and said goodbye.
FREE SANCHO!!!
Pressure treated poles, not square posts, set in packed gravel, assuming the ground naturally drains and dries, can last a very long time. I have seen them 40 years old still strong and unrotted. To increase the longevity you can paint the poles with a thick coat of roof tar thinned a bit to sink in some. You only need to cover about a foot above and below ground level.
Watched a crew build a genuine Florida pole barn. They set strings. Dug holes with an auger. Dumped in some gravel for under the poles and then packed in around the poles but left the last foot or so free so they could have their helper apply the tar.
The guys, three in all and a good bunch of guys. Set strings, cut off the pole tops with a chainsaw to even them up. Then they flattened the mounting points by sawing with a bow saw, claimed it gave more control, to cross cut every 3/4" or so. Riggers hatchets then removed the waste. Same tool was used to drive the huge spikes to hold the 2by8s.
Whole barn frame, something like 20' by 50', went up in a day. One guy and the helper put on the galvanized steel roof the next day. I got to wire the place with fluorescent lights and a few receptacles.
Was neat to see it come together. I was on site wiring the house about 30' away.
I am covered up with black locust ( which as they say last 20 yrs longer than stone) and my garage and sawmill building are all built with them.But getting 15 nice straight ones hauling out of woods;transport ; setting up and trueing their wacky sides ; dealing with taper are all things Id do for myself but not for a client.So itll probably be 6x6. I paint roof tar on my fence post guess wouldnt hurt PT.And yes connecting into ground may be stronger than any post pier interface unless everything is braced out the wazoo.