I have a cabinet that has a Tung oil finish.
Can this be painted over with Poly or water based poly.???
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Replies
Usually, OB poly will be fine, WB not so fine.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
how long has the Tung oil cured?
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It has cured about a week. I'm thinking it might look better if it had a little more glossy finish. Its behind the bar at my VFW and I'm sure someone will be painting over it with Poly so I was just wondering if its OK to do so.
Never say anything bad about a person untill you have walked a mile in his shoes, by then you will be a mile away from him and you will have his shoes.
I'd give it a good 30 days before going over with poly, tho oil based might be OK.There are also some rubbing mixes with catalized tung and polly together, that would be compatible ad have a harder glossier finish. Can't recal names now
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Wow! Thanks for the replys or replies. I always learn something here.
Never say anything bad about a person untill you have walked a mile in his shoes, by then you will be a mile away from him and you will have his shoes.
Why put poly over tung oil? It is so easy just to add another coat of tung oil.
good question
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I probably wont paint over it but someone might someday so I just want to know what to tell the Commander.
The area under the bar looked like #### and they had a price of $1500.00 for about 7 ft of cabinets under the existing bar.
I built a PW base with a kicktoe and put a seven ft PW shelf above it, then put in some 1X4 oak plywood uprights and four oak vaneer PW doors.Minwax Golden oak with tung oil finish. Looks great and the material cost was less than $200.00
No charge for my work I had fun doing it .
They build kitchen cabinets like this in mobile homes.
Never say anything bad about a person untill you have walked a mile in his shoes, by then you will be a mile away from him and you will have his shoes.
The man's right. An oil base product should play well with another oil based product. I often mix poly and urethane into oils, or the other way around for different projects (a little more oil will produce a softer finish). Tung oil is a hardening oil. After a short while, it should be hard and able to deal with most anything. Though it may have been, chances are, your tung oil finish wasn't an true "tung oil" finish, but was tung oil with thinners in it. At any rate, once dry, you should fair game.
"An oil base product should play well with another oil based product"That is more or less true, but tung cures by exposure to oxygen rather than drying. if it is coated over with a poly film before it has time to cure fully, it will remain somewhat soft under the poly.of course like you pointed out, this is probably not a pure true tung. I don't know if that kind is already catalyzed or not.
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Edited 3/3/2009 6:03 pm ET by Piffin
The key here being, as you indirectly indicated, be patient. Let it have ample time to dry. Even then, I'd still scuff it, if only out of habit.
Frying tung oil?That is just not prudent.
drying - I fixed my typo - thanks.Just wanted to point out that it doesn't dry any m,ore than concrete does. It reacts with oxygen to harden. There is some drying in the evaporation of the carrier is all.
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Here I thought it oxidized..(G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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POW!Here, lemmee help you up...;0
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Yes, it crosslinks.
Try a few coats of Waterlox over it. It's a polymerized tung oil finish (so it's compatible) and it offers much more protection than regular tung oild finishes. Some use it on floors...
Billy
Your best bet is to hit it first with a coat of shellac. Heck, if it isn't likely to see any spilled liquids or drinks left on it, you might be happy just doing that. If you want something more durable, you can put pretty much any hard finish you want (i.e. everything EXCEPT tung oil, danish oil, linseed oil...) over the shellac - it's an ideal sealing coat.
-t
There is lots I like shellac for, but I think this is a terrible bad location for it as a sealer or a finish.He can't use it first as a sealer like you mention because he already has tung on the piece as first coats. And if that were not the case, one advantage of the tung is that it cures slow so it has time to penetrate the wood and combine with it. Have a shellac sealer on the wood first would stop the tung from doing that and remove one of its great advantages.and using as a top coat exposes it to alcohol. This setting is lower cab in a VFW bar! Alcohol eats up a shellac finish
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Shellac will form a seal coat over tung oil just fine.
I thought you mean sealer under tung. On top I call it finish coats.Still not good aroundf alcohol for top sealer though
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I missed the line about it being a bartop. This is actually a tough call. If he's thinking someone is going to lather it in poly down the road, then that would adhere to a shellac-sealed topcoat better than just the tung oil that's already there. But, you're right, someone with a little too much internally applied alcohol is bound to make a topical application that screws that up...That kind of obligates him to putting on a poly coat after the shellac. Which is twice as much work. Still a better bet than leaving a tung oil finish alone on a bartop. It won't fare a whole lot better than a shellac finish. A quick approach would be the shellac followed by a "fast dry" wiping varnish. Someone at FWW put out an article a few years ago on using paper towels with fast dry wiping varnish. FWIW: Zinsser's seal coat is just dewaxed shellac. You can get it in a spray can as well, if you want to make quick work of it without buying or hauling out the spray gear.
Way too many myths and mis-info here. POLY ( OIL) is self sealing and will be better over other oil, than oil that had any seal cote or shellac applied, PERIOD. It adheres to itself better than just about anything, and a LOT of so called tung oils are nothing more than thinned varnish or poly. A DROP of tung oil, and they call it that..pure tung oil is a kings ransom in price.
Poly urethanes in general, do not need any prior sealing, maybe just thin the first coat. Thats it. Now IF there is silicone contamination, then break out the seal cote, but the finish will be comprimised vs using a fisheye eliminater ( more silicone) in the actual top coat of poly.
Spraying is almost always better than brushing when doing finish coats, and almost every poly can and will come out fine, if ragged on in thinner coats.
Water based poly, Can and does better over oilbased stuff ( stain or varnish) if a sealer of sealcote ( not amber shellac) is used..the ingredients in the WB are more compatible with shellac, than oil anything. But there are brands that will work just fine, w/out that step. Hydrocote is one I am very, very, very familiar with.
Ok, now he also said this is a back bar, not a bar top. So that is moot.
Not jumping on you specifically, I just hate seeing SO many threads with semi correct info, or outright false hoods. Reading a can of poly ( minwax for example) clearly says, NO sealer.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Pure tung oil isn't that expensive, here's someone that sells it at about $20 a quart - mighty cheap king you have there:http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=768The biggest problem is that it's as thick as molasses.If we really want to be precise, poly is short for polymerized. As a lay term, "cross-linked" is often substituted. Polymerized urethanes = polyurethane. Polymerized acrylate esters = polyacrylic. "Self-sealing" sounds like something a marketing department made up. Do you mean "solidified," like an evaporative finish, or "cured" like a reactive finish? By that criteria, anything other than mineral oil or wax would be considered "self-sealing."Back when finishes were made by mixing natural resins (largely acid-functionalized terpenoids) with oils (aliphatic esters) the gross ratio of oil to resin defined a "short oil" or "long oil" finish. Long oils take longer to cure, level out more readily and are more soft and flexible. Short oils cure quicker, leave more brush marks and dry hard and brittle. If you want to increase the UV resistance, you'd add a phenolic component and turn it into "spar" varnish. Most spar varnishes were made over a long oil base because the marine use required a more flexible (e.g. less hard) base. Applying a short oil over a pure oil is essentially an in situ (a fancy phrase that means "on site") formulation of a long oil. Applying a long oil over a pure oil is an in situ formulation of a very long oil. Make your oil "long" enough and it won't cure at all.Nowadays, all of the base resins the finish manufacturers use are synthetically derived commodity chemicals and they change regularly. Terms such as varnish or lacquer have virtually no chemical similarity to their historic basis. I bring this up to point out that you're standing on awfully soft sand when you say this "type" behaves "this way." I've had "water-based catalyzed lacquer with satin sheen additive" finish change on me over the course of one project. The third drawer on a four drawer lowboy started to blush and peel when diluted to the appropriate Ford #4 viscosity. Turns out, the manufacturer altered formulations on me mid-stream. Same name, same brand, just a different lot number on the new can. So I don't see your basis for complaining about "myths and misinformation." A sealing coat of shellac will allow for virtually any "hard" finish to be applied, either water-based or oil-based without concerns of adherance. Water based polyacrylic finishes, in fact, have a great track record for blushing, peeling or otherwise failing to adhere to wood that has previously seen an oil based substrate. The classic is when someone shoots a water based finish over a gel stain that hasn't completely cured out, which can sometimes take a week or more. I generally assume that other people are not, in fact, professional organic chemists and instead want practical advice. He originally asked if he could coat with "poly" or "water based poly". My answer is "yes - just put a coat of shellac down first." If you don't watch yourself, I'm going to start posting chemical structures, reaction coordinate diagrams and equations and make you show your work. We don't want that now, do we?-t
Post what ever ya want, you ain't making me show my work for anything.
I can agree with most of what you are saying, but still see shellac as being less than desireable in this case. I 've seen delaminations.
And have a slight edge about Hydrocote products, I worked with Dresdner who basically invented it with Kasner. I know the diabasic ethers too. And crosslinking and coalescing aliphatic resins.
Ya don't have to try to impress me.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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I've never used Hydrocote, but I know it didn't do so well in FH test a few years ago. I prefer to shoot WB finish, preferably something like Fuhr or Target.http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuideProduct.aspx?id=25508&tab=_editorWipe-On Finish Test
by Chris A. Minick
8/1/2005SUMMARY REVIEWThe author tested 15 wipe-on finishes, including a water-based finish and both tung-oil and linseed-oil-based finishes. Pure boiled linseed oil and Minwax Fast-Drying Polyurethane, a brushing finish, were added for comparison. All the finishes were tested on pieces of red-oak plywood cut from the same sheet. The Hydrocote Danish Oil Finish looks milky in the bottle but dries in 24 hours to a clear, flat finish. It's easy to apply but difficult to remove and offers poor water resistance. The author gives this product the ugly award, saying that the oak panel with this finish had a bleached-out appearance.Editor Test Results
Drying Time 24 hours
Sheen Flat
Water Resistance Poor
Thats not the same as the Resisthane, regular poly, or polyshield. I agree the D/oil subsitute is less than great. It always has been, and probably always will be. I don't use that product.
You should have seen the first generation of the lacquer lines , the stuff was horrid back in '88. The stains were often mis hued.
Michael fixed many of the issues, and even began his own company of gel stains "Clearwater Color Co." I made vats of the stuff, and he has since sold the Co. to a new owner/manufacturer. It is a very good stain.
We've had talks here about the too clear or water clear WB coatings and Hydrocote sells an amber add in that solves that issue well. We all know the difference from oil, and some of us, prefer one over the other. I avoid oil poly for a few reasons, as I do Cat Lac. I 'll use it where it's called for in a spec. or where there is no chance of a repair issue, but 90% of my work is Nitro cel laq over Sealcote, or Polyshield over raw wood.
I'm also a fan of amber shellac and briwax, not much into tungs or other straight oils that require many coats to achieve any build. Did a lot of Waterlox back in the 70's and it was simple and slow, but great looking.
I know Chris M, and M. Dresdner had a falling out of sorts at FWW as editors, so in any case, I'd not exect a glowing review of H.C products, even tho' M.D. left the mag many yrs ago and the Hydrocote biz as well.
I'll say again, I wasn't sighting in on you about the mis-info here, there are others that have made a total mess of the nomenclature and products, and techniques..some even make wildly outlandish claims that shellac is THE BEST wood floor treatment..but I won't go there.
Peace out.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
This is cherry with a stain, an oil finish, and then several coats of Waterlox and a final coat of wax. If you use Waterlox wait a few days between each coat. (see photo in next post)
Billy
Edited 3/3/2009 11:31 pm ET by Billy
Here's the photo.
Apply Zinsser SealCoat and then top with the poly of your choice:
http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=72
If your cabinet isn't around water or has a need that bar counter top would see, I'd suggest you use "Deft" to go over the tung oil finish.
I built a two-piece writing secretary and bookcase that I used Varathane's tung oil finish. Being Walnut, the oil gave the grain a deep tone, but it offered little protection to everyday sun and usage. Like all oil finishes, to last and add beauty, you "Should" recoat them about once a year. It's just hard to do that in the house...
After light sanding of the well dried tung oil with 320 grit, and wiping away the sanding dust, I brushed on three coats of Deft, lightly sanding with 320 between coats. Since each coat of Deft usually dries quickly, 30 minutes to 3 hrs., and the last coat allowed to dry overnight, you can get your finish over the well dried tung oil completed in 24 to 36 hours...
Bill
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Edited 3/4/2009 12:19 am ET by BilljustBill