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Pool slab “solar” heating.

COH | Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on October 7, 2003 05:47am

Has anyone ever installed copper piping beneath a pool deck in order to gain some free solar heating from the sun?  If you have, could you give me some piping sizing?  The pool is about 50,000 gallons, 6 foot deep.

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  1. jet | Oct 08, 2003 03:41am | #1

    Do you have a roof near by?

    Much better idea is to run the black garden hose up on to the roof. Any problems and you can see it right away.  Also if the pool gets too hot you can run the water at night and cool off the pool. If you are north enough you will ahve to winterize it by blowing out the lines.  As far as size try 1/2" and low flow.

    If at first you don't succeed...try again! After that quit! No sense being a dam fool about it!       W.C.Fields

    1. COH | Oct 09, 2003 04:42am | #3

      No roof nearby so that option is not available. Since dark concrete was to be used around the pool, in Los Angeles, there was the perceived option of installing lets say copper soft wall copy piping in a header arrangement to pull heat, and possibly cool the slab in the process, to heat the pool. Winterization is not a problem out here. Your recommendation of 1/2"copper sound right running from a header arrangement. I was just thinking that this was a way to provide a secondary loop of no cost heating for the pool. Thanks for the input.

  2. johnhardy | Oct 08, 2003 05:07am | #2

    In a past life I did a lot of solar heating contracting. While your idea seems to have merit it has problems:

    1. How do you plan on fixing the inevitable problem? With cu pipe buried in concret you're screwed if a leak pops up.

    2. I'm not sure how well concrete lets heat "travel". solar panels which use cu pipe usually have cu or aluminum wings which let heat flow from the hotter metal to the cooler water. I suspect that you'd have to put the cu piping very close together and that it would be prohibitively expensive.

    As another poster suggested, put the solar system on a roof. I'd investigate commercially available panels as they're surely less expensive than buying your own black pipe.

    My rule of thumb was to take the surface area of the pool, divide by 2, and try to get that much square footage in the solar panels. This is overkill, but it allows you to heat for a longer season ... more in the spring and more in the fall. Use commercially available controls so that you don't overheat the pool or inadvertently cool it down.

    John

    1. COH | Oct 09, 2003 04:47am | #4

      Thanks for the response. I agree with you about how to fix the inevitable leak.  This pool has a hillside which could be used for solar but it is directly visisble from the inside. I think the idea has merit but the problems are in the details. You were right about distance to the surface. I think if it was too deep in the concrete it wouldn't work, and tool close to the surface would cause cracking and or spalling. I kind of was thinking of treating it as a slab heating situation but only in reverse. Unfortunately people well trained in these products are most in the colder climes not here in lala land. Thanks again for your educated opinion.

    2. kaorisdad | Oct 09, 2003 11:39pm | #9

      I've been interested in adding solar for my pool in SoCal.  Other posts have mentioned leaks that develop with all of the connections running piping and solar panels on a rooftop.  I've even seen this (leaks) on an installation.  Is this really a problem?

      I have a flat garage roof right next to my pool that seems ideal for solar, and my goal is to extend the useable pool season a couple of months and to warm the water slightly in the summer.  During the middle of summer, the pool temp is usually around 83-degrees (unheated) and I'd like it around 87-degrees.  Others have mentioned blankets, which I have but is a royal pain to use and it ruins my view of the pool from my living room.

      What kind of temperature gain might I expect with solar and roughly, how much installed?

      1. johnhardy | Oct 10, 2003 07:58am | #11

        I installed literally hundreds of solar systems and the only major leak I had was where I ran PVC pipe up to the roof and used Mission clamps to connect it to copper panels. The leak in question was caused by a broken valve down below which created a very high pressure situation, and this blew the Mission clamp off of the copper. Ugly. Using PVC pipe and rubber hose clamps to synthetic panels can result in leaks if the panels are not installed correctly. Some times the panels expand or contract due to temperatures and if the fittings are not somewhat "flexible" they'll pull apart.

        What I'd recommend you do is use PVC to the roof and connect it to "synthetic" panels. The ones I used to use were manufactured by Solar Industries (not sure if they're still in business). The connections were made by using 1.5 inch hoses about 4 inches long cinched down with radiator clamps. As I said above, if done properly these do not leak.

        If you can have freezing temperatures in the winter you need to plan on proper drainage of the panels when the pump is off. I know you're in LA (I live there as well), so this probably isn't a problem for you.

        Not sure about current cost. I used to install a 10 panel system with automatic controls for about $3500, but this was years and years ago.

        If you choose to use metal panels, you don't need to get the glazed ones. That's overkill for a pool.

        Any guideline I give you about how long it takes to heat the pool will be just guesswork. It depends on how many gallons, how much surface area, the amount of true sunlight, angle of the panels, and so on. Believe me, if you have good light, and a good angle, if you install panels equal to half the square footage of the surface of the pool you'll be amazed at how well it works. I've had pools that went up to almost 90 degrees without solar blankets.

        John

        1. kaorisdad | Oct 15, 2003 01:34am | #12

          Thanks for the info.

          I was giving up on solar, but now I am intrigued again.

          Any recommendations on solar installers in the San Gabriel Valley?

          1. johnhardy | Oct 16, 2003 08:48am | #13

            I did all of my contracting in the San Francisco area, and now live in Los Angeles. So I really don't know anybody in your area. If you're handy, I can show you the ropes (perhaps over dinner?) and you can do this yourself. It's not rocket science. Or I could spend a day with you and we could do it together. Not sure what my expenses would be, but it'd be much cheaper than hiring a contractor.

            John

          2. kaorisdad | Oct 21, 2003 07:42pm | #14

            John,

            Thanks for the offer, but with all the 'projects' I have going, my wife would throw a fit if I started another one.  No, I want to just have a contractor turnkey this one, depending on the cost, benefits, etc.

          3. johnhardy | Oct 21, 2003 09:04pm | #15

            Interesting. A contractor will charge you double or triple what you can do it for yourself. I never took more than one day to install a pool solar system (one helper), and that counts two story houses. Get back to me if you change your mind.

            John

  3. VaTom | Oct 09, 2003 05:11am | #5

    Not copper, but here you go:  http://www.ferrotanks.com/solar_pools.html 

    These folks do know whereof they speak.

    PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

    1. COH | Oct 09, 2003 07:07am | #6

      Thanky Thanky. Will look into it.

  4. cndamm | Oct 09, 2003 04:36pm | #7

    Don't use copper pipe with concrete. Chemicals in concrete will eat through the pipe. I have seen this done before but they used a plastic (Pex?) pipe. Chris

    1. COH | Oct 09, 2003 10:51pm | #8

      Thanks for this. Your absolutely right. I was thinking sleeving but that would defeat the heat transfer.

    2. DavidThomas | Oct 10, 2003 12:48am | #10

      The plastic pipe you want is PEX (cross-linked polyethylene).  Cross-linking is a chemical reaction between the polymers making them even more stable than the high-density polyeythlene (HDPE) used in gas cans, ski bases and gallon milk jugs.

      I'd run the PEX tubing along some #4 re-bar.  Inorder to protect the PEX from movement of the concrete.  PEX is pretty tough, but if a concrete slab cracks, there would be a lot of force at the crack.

      David Thomas   Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska

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