To all who know… I am beginning a 16 X 12 Greek Revival style porch with a 30 inch wide entablature with all the associated elements. Would poplar be a good choice for this?
PAL
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Replies
I've heard that poplar expands and contracts a lot with moisture and remember reading that it is not recommended for exterior use. I believe it is also more susceptible to rot than other species used for exterior work. You'll probably get a lot of suggestions on alternatives but maybe cedar or some type of pine would work for you. There are certainly other options (ipe and white oak) but the price might be prohibitive. Whatever you choose, the important things are to protect all surfaces of the wood (all sides and especially the end grain) with whatever you're using for a coating, minimize potential for water entry between adjoining pieces of trim, and prevent the wood from contacting any masonry (like porches, steps, etc.).
Thanks for the info. I think a lot of historic homes used to use a combination of yellow pine and poplar for the wide boards that are required for large-scale trim. However, it seems that supplies of wide poplar are more readily available. I had poplar lap siding (painted) on a 1852 home and it was in remarkably good shape. Will have to check with sawmill on some type of pine.
PAL
The poplar used for lap siding and trim on old houses was old growth and was more rot resistant than the poplar we get today. I've rebuilt a lot of cornice that was rebuilt 10 years or less ago with poplar.
This is interesting. I've never heard of that distinction. I'd like to read more. What is your source?PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
PAL-- I would STRONGLY suggest that you DO NOT use poplar for any exterior trim. It has almost no resistance to rot, and you will be replacing it in 10 years or less. I recently had to replace 2 porch columns that were 6 or 7 years old that were poplar. The contractor that originally installed them had them made locally, and they were nicely made, and painted on the end grain and everything. For exterior use, I would suggest woods like mahogany, white oak, white pine, cedar, or cypress. Or, if it works with your design, you might try making the trim out of on of the composite materials. Just remember, spending a little more money on better materials now could save you a lot of money later.
Might have some good leads on cypress and cedar. Question is: can they be planed to a smooth finish? Seems like both types that I have seen are real "feathery" and separate at the growth rings.
PAL
PAL--I'm more familiar with cedar, and that can be planed to a smooth finish. Just look at the wood before you buy and make sure that you don't have some wild grain to it.
My opinion is, yellow poplar (tulip poplar, tulipwood, the poplar I get when I call my lumber supplier and ask for poplar), should never ever be used outside. This is a different tree though, than what grows in the woods around here as 'poplar', and sometimes gets milled up and sold locally. When I hear people reporting good rot resistance from 'poplar', I'm at the point where I figure they are referring to a local species of true poplar, and not yellow poplar (liriodendron tulipfera).cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Well, tell it to Thomas Jefferson who used it for (surviving) balusters on Monticello. Passed the test of time around here, as long as it's kept drained. Used extensively as siding. Only a problem where drainage is absent. My experience included. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Difference in climate maybe. I've seen a lot of it put in, and then replaced with pine or something else when it didn't stand up. Never ever seen a job done with it that did stand up. I used to run a shop also where our primary product was made with either poplar, or basswood....I used to try different coatings on both and stick the samples outside. Both always failed completely under 'normal' Canadian conditions.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Perhaps, it's very humid here but the only problems I've seen, and I've seen more than a few, have to do with poorly drained situations. Any standing water will do it in, including internal to columns and behind molding. My confidence was such that I just used it to lap side my lumber storage building with copper roof. Not planning on replacement of either.
I've done work on an 18th century house, slate roof, with poplar trim in good condition. It had good design with proper drainage. Architects here, at least the better ones, offer drawings that assume leakage and include appropriate drainage. Poplar works fine. If drainage is questionable, we switch to white oak or walnut.
That mention of "old growth" was new to me and I'd like to learn more. Use of tulip poplar here is continuous and I haven't seen any change in longevity corresponding with installation age. But I certainly haven't seen it all. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
My understanding about old growth vs. new growth poplar as well as cedar is from working around the old guys. Could be an old wive's tale, but they say the growth rings are tighter from old forest lumber where trees had to compete. When they're "farmed" they're planted so they obtain maximum growth so the rings are not as tight. Don't have any research type hard facts to back that up with other than what I've seen. New poplar trim doesn't seam to last very well in my climate. A lot of the early construction in central KY was framed and trimmed with poplar. A lot of it is still standing. I've heard of cedar roofs lasting 50 years. They don't anymore.
Greencu, thanks for getting back to me.
I don't know that your old guys are wrong, but as far as how poplar is grown, not much has changed in Virginia. The only difference of opinion here is clear or selective cutting. And both methods leave young trees with a challenge. Most die. I've never seen a poplar "farm" where they were planted. Around here they come up on their own, like weeds. Only the strong survive. Want a few hundred?
Living in an underground house in the middle of a forest, that was the big surprise I got. Being busy with other things, I left the weeds to stabilize the dirt on the roof. Happened quickly. What I didn't expect was for poplars to take root there as well. Should have, considering that's the natural order here. But it never occured to me that a potentially 80' tree would take up residence there. Bad idea.
We've got a state U. that does a lot of forestry research, including propagation of resistant chestnut. I'll try to catch up with somebody there.
I've had our state forester out here to advise me on timber growing and the major disappointment I got was that he'd never heard of "continuous yield". Couldn't understand why I wouldn't want the loggers in every 15-20 yrs. He sure did after I pointed out the economics of selling boards vs. logs. Shocked him, but what I'm doing is hardly unique, just unusual. I never have gotten an answer about continuous yield so I'm making it up as I go. To the consternation of the loggers who solicit at least monthly. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I should have also added that you can't hardly find a poplar tree in these parts any more. All our poplar comes from elsewhere.
is your local poplar more of an alder?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Aspens, more like. And I've never used any, but some does get sawn up. All the poplar I've ever used (lots and lots), is yellow poplar, a magnolia, as far as I know all of it from south of the border.
I did a google search for yellow poplar in exterior applications; like all my references that are handy here (I have more at the office I'll have to check), most references to yellow poplar described it as excellent for interior uses....very little mention at all of exterior. The only stuff that did turn up with exterior examples all came from fairly Southern states, though there was one tech sheet on making popolar siding from the Appalachians. No northern references at all by the time I got bored.
All I can say is, I THINK I can speak for Eastern Canadian woodworkers (E. Ontario on east, the provinces I've worked in), that we don't use it outside because it fails under normal conditions in our climate. I have personally never seen or heard of an exception, and I have seen and heard of many horror stories, so I won't use it. Mostly what I hear is "Yeah, I got caught once on poplar....never again." Any Canadians want to correct me, I'm listening. The only wood I have had a worse experience with outside is basswood.
What about Maine? Are you guys using it outside?cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
The native poplars here do grow large enough to make lumber out of but we don't. I was advised upon moving here not to try. I did make boards out of one when we were clearing my place and those are still in rough form in the shop attic. The grain is more squirrely and hairy than southern poplar which we buy for millwork on interiors.
This local poplar is similar to aspen and grows like a weed. It really isn't worth much as firewood either. Try splitting it the first year and it will spit water back in your face. By the second year, it has started to go punky on you. Supposing that you cut it up and split it and stack to dry, it will burn but then it seems like you haul two buckets of ash out for every armload of poplar firewood you haul in.
I've never tried using that southern poplar for exterior work though we did build a few doors out of it that have held up well.
I find that even pine is much worse and of softer grain than old growth so I presume the same holds for poplar. The positive that I see in theory, is that southern trees grow amidst more humidity and mold than northern trees so it stands to reason that they would have developed naturally to resist that decay in their growth. Call it adaptive developement.
It's only theory.
Excellence is its own reward!
I repeat my earlier statement- poplar( i'm talking about yellow poplar) is a terrible wood for exterior use. The lumber yard I normally deal with is usually pretty good with the quality of the material they sell, but they started stocking window sills in poplar instead of the pine or even primed finger-joint pine. When I asked about why rhey were doing this, and giving them my opinion of poplar as an exterior wood, I was told that the poplar sills were cheaper. I then asked what I should tell my customers when the sills I replace needed replacing again in a short time. I don't think it was entirely my doing, but they no longer carry poplar window sill stock. Sometimes a little information about your materials can go a long way.
FWIW I wouldn't use it for a sill either. Not drained well enough.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Pal
I would use cypress if I could get it, it will mill OK, attached is a pic of cypress and it came out nice.
Doug
Thanks for the photo, it certainly does finish well. Does cypress have tannin/bleeding issues if I am painting it? Do I want kiln- dried or air- dried?
PAL
Pal
I know that the stuff that we used on this was kiln dried, but I'm not sure that would matter, but I dont know.
I saw no sign of any bleeding. I think it was primed with Kilz so maybe somebody knew something, you'd have to ask someone more knowledgable than I on that.
We used it a lot and never saw a problem with the stuff, I will use it myself when exterior work warrants it, you can usually get it fairly clear, only few knots.
One downside to it is the tiny little slivers from it, cant see them but they hurt.
Doug
Is that a slate roof with copper gutters? What are the small things sticking up on the roof?
BTW nice work.
Dave
Dave
Some sort of concrete roof, the things sticking up, not sure of there technical name but they stop the snow from sliding off all at once. Yes copper gutters.
Doug
That is very nice, is it red cypress? The cypress we get in NC isn't. It's the movin'st stuff I have ever seen, and weather makes the grain stand out worse than pine. Obviously, we can't get red cypress.
We've got tulip poplar ( Popular Twolipus) sided and trimmed buildings around here that have been holding up for 150 years. Never heard of old growth poplar, they grow humongsly here, and in fairly short order.
If this porch is protected and the trim is backprimed and end sealed ( and the ends aren't sitting on masonry), I'd use it. I'm assuming, of course,that everything's in place to direct water away from the trim.
Or you could go with Southern Yellow Pine, I'm just trying to get our bushmashed economy back on the road<G>
Power to the Poplar EliphIno!
Billy
Dont know if its red or green cypress? It has the look of pine(color wise). I've done some exterior stuff with popular also and I have primed every side and the stuff is still in good shape. been 10 to 15 years.
I guess that means the stuff should be rotting to the ground any day now.
Doug
My compass is probably off, but, aren't you in Texass? My supplier tells me that red is the best, but I can't get it. Maybe he was talking about my brain capacity! Anyway, you deep southern boys can apparently get the good stufff, because that cornice looks smooth. Damn nice job. But, be popular<G> EliphIno!
Billy
Your compass is OK, I just moved to TX 6 months ago, that pic is of a house in Iowa. But I know that we weren't growing any cypress in Iowa so don't know exactly where it came from, do know that it was ordered from a place in Kansas City. That was the last place I worked on for the company that i worked for in IA.
The mouldings was ran on a Winig(sp?) and it came out very smooth. Then we just primed it.
Doug