Replies

1. 
   Piffin | Aug 04, 2003 01:17am | #1

   I don't remember the price comparison.

   If I am milling the wood to pattern, I avaoid MDF. It is hard on blades and bits, plus makes major nasty dust. But it paints well for simple flat stock

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   PhillGiles | Aug 04, 2003 01:27am | #2

   What sort of profile ? Is this the installed price or the materials price ?

   .

   Phill Giles

   The Unionville Woodwright

   Unionville, Ontario

3. 
   CapnMac | Aug 04, 2003 06:23am | #3

   Milled, primed MDF is running about the same price as poplar here in central Texas.

   For raw stock, a 4x8x5/8 sheet of mdf is around $45; a 5x10x5/8 is about $70.

   MDF almost requires solid carbide cutting edges, expect the carbide to last on about 1/4 as long as if used in solid wood.  Get extra cutters, or replacable carbide for moulding work.

   For painted trim in square (unmoulded) shapes, MDF is hard to beat as it has almost no end grain to deal with, and no directional grain at all.  However it is also about 1.5 times the weight of the poplar, so that needs consideration during installation.

4. 
   ccal | Aug 04, 2003 06:43am | #4

   Poplar here would be about 1.35 bf and mdf about 22$ per 4x8x3/4. Id use the poplar for what you are doing, but ive seen mdf  used in that situation too. You might come out better with the mdf base pricewise, but 8' is all i can easily get here, so it would be a lot of joints.

5. 
   talkingdog | Aug 04, 2003 06:04pm | #5

   Call me old-fashioned but I just don't get it with this MDF (and similar products). It is not a high quality material. And you need high quality materials to do high quality work.

   Granted, raw MDF or clear varnished has a certain look that is prized by some interior designers. Makes cool looking furniture.

   But I don't like it for architectural woodwork. For one thing, MDF has weak edges, just like plywood. Breaks easily. After all, MDF is really just a thick mass of pulp like newspaper.

   One of the purposes of molding and woodwork is to offer resilience and protection at the edges of brittle mudded walls, to absorb the abuses that are inevitable with daily traffic--such as my toddler running into the doorframe at full speed on her tricycle.

   There is no way that an MDF molding is gonna be as durable in such an application as one made of poplar or other suitable hardwood. An edge breaks off and cheesy MDF pokes out and then the client sees it, crumbling it between thumb and forefinger, and says, "This is not real wood, I am paying enough for real wood, how come I can't get real wood anymore."

   Another thing is moisture. All these fake materials like MDF swell up when they come in contact with sufficient moisture. Can't be helped. You can backprime all you like.

   Another factor is off-gassing of chemicals and the potential health impact of this. Sick house syndrome, etc. I know these products are certified safe and so forth, but I remain deeply suspicious. As your client may be.

   OK, so these are three factors. Present these to the client in support of your decision to use quality solid hardwood and his perception of the high quality of your work will be heightened. He gets bragging rights out of the deal too, "My contractor is giving me real, good wood."

   On a personal note, I find it hard to get out of bed in the morning knowing I am going to be working all day with MDF. Poplar, OTOH, is one of the nicest and sweetest woods around, makes love to your tools, sands easily, takes paint well. About the only thing wrong with it is that it's green.

1. 
   VaTom | Aug 04, 2003 08:15pm | #6

   Another problem I've seen with MDF molding was the joint where the piece wasn't long enough and had to be spliced.  A homeowner asked me what to do with the joint as either it was open or too tight and buckled, depending on time of year.  He didn't tell me it wasn't wood, but that was no secret.  Wood has very little movement along the grain.  I had no answer for him, other than replace it.  Good looking crown otherwise.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

1. 
   KGambit | Aug 04, 2003 11:48pm | #8

    Vatom,

    The joint didn't open up because the material was MDF. You said that wood as very little seasonal movement along the grain, which is right: but MDF has NO movement at all in any direction. I would guess the reason the joint opened up was probably do to framing. Either a bad framing job, or the moulding may be perpendicular to and near an outside wall, (which would see the most seasonal movement, especially on a second floor)I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!

1. 
   VaTom | Aug 05, 2003 02:46am | #9

   Manroot,

   Good point.  But I've seen MDF swell.  It does get larger and smaller.  Ever see it used in drawers?  Over a length of molding I wouldn't know.  And have no intention of ever knowing.  The dust is enough to keep me at bay.  The only time I liked MDF was when I had to make raised panel doors for painting.  And then I only liked it after the dust settled and I got the shaper knives re-ground. 

   The joint was ground floor (of 2), interior wall, and the only place he had to have a joint.  Owner-builder who did his own framing in a detailed house.  I don't think there is a framing problem in the whole house.  But I don't have any better ideas.

   Thanks.  PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

2. 
   Piffin | Aug 05, 2003 03:18am | #10

   MDF does so move and swell.

   Not really noticeably so in most applications, and less so than cellular PVC, IMO, but it does grow.

   I use it where the movement, and moisture or wear and tear oare less of a concern.

   Talking dog makes a really good case for not using it at all but I like it wear I have a need for curved casings and large pieces in strange shapes. Saves glueups, laminations, and checking ruination wheare cost is a consideration.

   The first customer who insisted that I use it on her house has lived to regret the choice though. She got crowns in MDF ( I refused to use it for casings and base) and there are a few places where moisture has caused swelling. All for a savings of maybe two bills..

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   KGambit | Aug 05, 2003 04:17am | #14

    MDF does swell when soaked in water, but for seasonal movement...you'd have to check it with a micrometer. It is far far less than solid wood. I understand people's reluctance to use it, but a joint on an mdf crown opening up due to shrinkage....no way.

   I wasn't very fond of it until I saw it being used in a million and a half dollar home for wainscoting. When I milled my own I had my brother come over and we moved the shaper out back on the patio....because you're right, the dust is unbelievable.

    But I think the cost savings is more than 200 bucks on an average sized home. In my case it was well  over a thousand dollars. (I think closer to two, but I'd have to go back and check my receipts.)

   Hey, to each his own, I think mdf has it's place, and I think for indoor millwork, it is more than stable enough, but of course I would have used Quartersawn White Oak, or Mahogany if I had the money.....or maybe Birds Eye Maple...mmm yeah thats the ticket!! ....NO NO! Walnut! yes yes thats it! Walnut...European????  No No! Black Walnut! .....wait...Cherry????...Mmmmm?I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!

2. 
   Piffin | Aug 05, 2003 04:35am | #16

   For all the trim on a whole house, I can see saving a grand or so. This was on just the crowns that she saved a couple hundred.

   IMO. It has it's place, but I'd far rather work poplar for most stuff..

   Excellence is its own reward!

3. 
   KGambit | Aug 06, 2003 05:47pm | #26

   Piffin,

    My bad! I didn't realize it was just a crown.! :)I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!

3. 
   DougU | Aug 05, 2003 03:56am | #11

   Manroot

   I'm with you, theres a place for MDF in high end homes. I have used it for a lot of applications.

   The picture here has a lot of it! The milled mouldings are mainly popular, but the columns are MDF as is the panels, stiles, rails, base and most of the coffered ceiling.

   Doug

   
1. 
   KGambit | Aug 05, 2003 04:05am | #12

   Doug,

    All I have to say is "Holy Crap, That is some beautiful millwork"I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!

2. 
   DougU | Aug 05, 2003 04:14am | #13

   Manroot

   Yea, love the painted wood. I like the way you used yours in your house, I have some vintage caseing that I believe would be a match for the stuff you have around your stained glass window. Dont know if you got the idea from some antique millwork. I have always like painted wood more than natural, with the exception of tiger maple wood.

   Doug

3. 
   KGambit | Aug 05, 2003 04:28am | #15

    Thanks! I went with painted because our house is a reproduction farmhouse, and in this area they are all painted. Plus, like you, I think painted looks better...especialy over those cheap poplar mouldings that they stain to look like walnut...not that they really look like walnut to anyone. (Also I couldn't afford Quartered White Oak, can you imagine the price just to do the baseboards!...(coranary)

    I buy a lot of old woodworking and architecture books from Dover Publishing. They carry a lot of old reproduction wood working books from the 19th century...real fascinating stuff. I have a 1905 edition by Mowatt on staircase construction...man, nothing like today, you'd need to be a math professor to figure out his diagrams, but the examples of his work and construction techniques is awesome.

    I got 3 old millwork catalogs through dover all from the turn of the century, I got my casings from one of those books and had knifes ground up from the drawings. You should check them out, the line drawings are real high quality. I'll leave a link down the bottom here if I can find it. ( I found it)

   http://store.doverpublications.com/0486256979.htmlI don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!

4. 
   DougU | Aug 05, 2003 04:55am | #17

   Manroot

   Thanks for the link, I'll have to check that book out.

   Doug

5. 
   royr | Aug 05, 2003 05:02am | #18

   Okay fella's, thanks for the info !

   It's poplar as I wanted all along but thanks for telling me what you think

   Rupert

6. 
   TomT226 | Aug 05, 2003 01:46pm | #20

   Check the price on soft maple. Sometimes it's about the same as po;lar, and IMHO, its a better choice for face frames and trim.

7. 
   KGambit | Aug 06, 2003 05:47pm | #25

   Your welcome, they have a ton of cool old books, if you have the time to surf the sight!I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!

8. 
   talkingdog | Aug 05, 2003 09:12am | #19

   I have to second that, a beautiful job. Practically brings tears of nostalgia to my eyes, since I never get to see anything like that around here.

   About the only kind of moldings that are installed here these days are factory prefinished, made of particleboard or MDF with printed woodgrain vinyl wrapped around the profile. The ultimate cheese, but it certainly does look perfect.

   I think it would be very interesting for FH to do a scientific cost comparison of these different molding materials. I wonder what the difference in total cost finished would be between solid wood, MDF, plastic and prefinished (and maybe these including wrapped vinyl/particleboard monstrosities).

   That is, MDF is cheaper in terms of raw materials than poplar, but then there is the high milling cost (panel ripping, shaper knife sharpening and dust cleanup), more scarf joints, plus an extra round of sanding. Labor cost is higher.

   My theory is that the paintable plastic moldings would be cheaper in total.

   No idea about natural finished moldings, though.

9. 
   PhillGiles | Aug 05, 2003 08:39pm | #22

   We buy MDF in 14 footers and you can joint it to any length you want. With white wood, the scarf joints are always so noticeable..

   Phill Giles

   The Unionville Woodwright

   Unionville, Ontario

10. 
    DougU | Aug 06, 2003 05:12am | #23

    Phill

    Where or how do you get MDF in 14'? Are you talking about sheets 4'X14'?

    I can get it 10' but never see or heard of it that long. It must be a bear to lift.

    Doug

11. 
    PhillGiles | Aug 06, 2003 08:03pm | #27

    No, molding (standard MDF sheets are 4'x8' or 49"x97", although the 1" oversize is getting hard to find lately, you can special order over-length). All our local boxes normally stock MDF molding (primed, paper-wrapped, vinyl-wrapped) in 14'. If we need longer, we join it on the floor: butt-joint, WeldBond, biscuit or spline.

    We use biscuits for larger stuff, splines for small. For splines, get some of that thin birch plywood they use for model airplanes. .

    Phill Giles

    The Unionville Woodwright

    Unionville, Ontario

12. 
    DougU | Aug 07, 2003 05:10am | #28

    Phill

    Thanks, thought you were getting 4' X 14', thought that sounded weird but you never know. I have been able to get it in 4X10 foot lenghts before.

    Doug

13. 
    CapnMac | Aug 07, 2003 06:54am | #29

    Isn't interesting how we are all talking about different products, that all have the same name?  The mdf prices I was quoting were for cabinet-grade sheets.  These are about twice as hard as the shelf stock the big-box stores carry, which are a little bit stiffer than the substrate mdf used in moulding.  Most of the mdf moulding I have seen is really LDF (low density fibreboard) core with a paper or vinyl wrap.  Pre-primed finger jointed pine is usually better, if about the same amount of labor.

    For durable, or high traffic situations, you can get HDF (high density fibreboard), but it is steep, $65-70 for a 4x8.  But, you can mill out a cabinet door that will be almost indestrucible, and will only have the joints you put in it.

    I've used mdf for case & mill work before, with no problems.  Mind you, this was all square stock, and simple joints, and painted.  (Window trim was getting covered with four or five "decorator" curtains anyway.)  One thing you can do, if you are ripping sheets for case work, is to spray the mdf with sanding sealer.  The paint will go on like an epoxy coat afterwards.

14. 
    CAGIV | Aug 08, 2003 01:55am | #30

    the HDF, how much harder is it on blades and bits? Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.

15. 
    CapnMac | Aug 08, 2003 02:49am | #31

    As bad as the hard, cabinet grade sheet stock.  The cabinet shop I was working for quit using it for CNC routed doors--mostly due to the material cost, but also because only diamond tooling seemed to last.  For "hand tools" figure maybe a quarter of "normal" life (untill hte edges fray and/or fuzz, that sort of thing.  The sheets are about 15% heavier.  If I remember correctly, 5x10 are not available, but 3x5 are, in 11mm, 13mm, and 15mm (7/16, 5/8, & 3/4 ~mostly~) thicknesses.

    The biggest user of HDF is the high-end speaker builders; it's the highest density for volume available (Cerwin-Vega, for one).

    The hdf will take an edge, and will mould, but the tools have to be dead sharp.  It will biscuit joint, but you need to be stingy with a PE glue; "white" glues occasionally won't bond to the high resin content in the hdf.

    Built some linen fronts from some "found" stock.  Built the frame as stile-and-rail with biscuited butt joints; the doors were flat, back-routed for a 3/8" inset lip.  One light coat of sanding sealer followed by one coat of finish white paint.  HO still getting complements on the custom "vinyl" cabinetry.

    Cabinet grade mdf is easier to get, and easier to work (and friendlier to carpenter's glue).  It is nice to be able to get thicker stock for some applications, like 7/8 & 9/8.  Makes the keystone parts real easy for painted arch casework.

16. 
    CAGIV | Aug 08, 2003 06:34am | #32

    Thanks for the answer, but as to 9/8 MDF, no thanks, don't need the hernia ;)Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.

17. 
    CapnMac | Aug 12, 2003 02:19am | #33

    9/8 MDF, no thanks, don't need the hernia

    LoL!

    Back at the ol' cabinet shop, they used a product for the beds of the Shoda & Routech CNC routers.  Can't remember the product name (foamboard, airboard, sumpin like that)--but it just looked like it had potential.  This was a manufactured, all endgrain product; you could draw a vacuum through it to hold parts down for routing.  It also was stout enough to mill for hold-downs, or to flush mill previous patterns off of it.  Just seemed like a cool material to "do something" with . . .

    Stiff like LDF, but half the weight--way too expensive, though.  Probably see it on Monster house sometime soon, though . . .

18. 
    KGambit | Aug 06, 2003 05:46pm | #24

     You do have a point, labor costs are slightly higher, but I found that because of the way MDF is made, (real fine fine particles of wood). That even when the shaper knives get dull, it doesn't really effect the finish all that much, you don't get tear out like you do with solid wood. So you can let your knives go a little longer between sharpening than you can with solid wood.I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!

19. 
    PhillGiles | Aug 05, 2003 08:35pm | #21

    Builder here still use a lot of white wood in low end homes, but more expensive homes are moving to MDF, usually the paper-wrapped and primed stuff (it's obviously not price-competitive to mill your own moldings, it's barely break-even for a home-owner to do that). Some back-prime the stock, most don't bother, and problems with swelling are very rare..

    Phill Giles

    The Unionville Woodwright

    Unionville, Ontario

6. 
   KGambit | Aug 04, 2003 10:55pm | #7

    Here in the Northeast a sheet of 3/4 MDF goes for about 20 bucks. (Keep in mind there are several different types of MDF, some manufactures make MDF specifically for mouldings) I did my whole house, except the bathrooms and entrance halls in MDF mouldings I milled myself. The total price for mouldings for my house was around $600...I would have loved to use oak or poplar but it was just to expensive. My house is 4 years old and I have 2 dogs and 2 kids and it has held up very well. Granted the edges are weaker than wood, but I have had no chips. It is very very tough against compression forces and is not easily dented.

    I here some of your guys complaints about using quality materials but I really don't have any complaints. My baseboards are 10 inches high and to do that with hard wood would have been very very expensive. The only problem is the 8 foot length, you do wind up with some scarf joints, but if you strategically place them you will never see them. Look for obvious places that a couch will go or a bureau etc... All my scarfs in the entire house except 2 are behind couches, pianos, bureaus etc.. And the 2 that are exposed, haven't opened up at all.

    Just use a good quality construction adhesive and nail through a joist to keep them shut. Or you could biscuit them. I used Poplar for the Plinth blocks and window stools because I couldn't get the thickness I wanted with MDF, but I think my mouldings came out great. I would use it again.

    Just because a material is fairly new doesn't mean it's bad. I love old houses and for painted trim I think MDF is fine, however I would never use the new engineered floors...(Pergo etc...). I guess we all have our own tastes.

   A few notes on MDF.

    1) It doesn't chip as easily as you might think, my kid crashes into it all day on his bike and I have yet to see a chip. (You are right however, it is not nearly as strong as any hardwood against glancing blows along the edges.

    2) You can buy non-formaldehyde formulated MDF if you are worried about off gassing. (Did I spell that right?)

    3) The dust when milling is unbelievable, it's not like wood dust. It floats in the hair like someone broke open a bottle of babypowder...wear a mask!

    4) In constantly wet areas use real wood. (Bathrooms etc..) It doesn't swell like a sponge like some people think but it does swell a little after long exposure, and it will significantly weaken the material.

    5) It mills very good, holds a crisp profile, and soaks the paint up like a sponge. I don't ever see this pain chipping or flaking. It really soaks in, and finishes very smooth.

   6) My planer/moulder has 2 speeds, fast for planing, and slow for milling/shaping. I found with the MDF that it actually milled better at the higher speed. The knives don't seem to heat up as much and the profile needs little or no dressing up. (However, your first coat of paint will significantly raise the grain, and require sanding, no matter how smooth the profile appears after milling. That's one of the drawbacks, you won't really see that with poplar)

   Now don't get me wrong, if the customer can afford it I would prefer to use Yellow Poplar or White Oak all the time, but I don't see anything wrong with MDF, and If it's going to be painted what difference does it make what's under the paint? Just because you used MDF means it's low quality? That doesn't make any sense. I don't get excited using the typical "clamshell and ranch" mouldings found in every new house today wether they are Poplar, MDF, Pine or finger jointed pine (I never use fingerjointed anything) I think the beauty of MDF is that it is so much less money than Poplar or any other hardwood, that with the money saved on the material, the customer could put that savings toward having a custom profile milled and toss that homecenter moulding into the garbage where it belongs.

   To you that have seen these before I apologize. (I have posted these in another thread) But they are currently the only pics I have on my computer of my mouldings. They are all MDF except for the window stool, and the plinth blocks...(Rosettes are MDF).

   (I haven't decided on a cap yet for my baseboards)

   PS The last time I bought poplar I think it was around 1.65 a board foot.

   I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!

   
   

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   Edited 8/4/2003 3:56:46 PM ET by Manroot

   
   

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   Edited 8/4/2003 4:36:23 PM ET by Manroot