I have a customer who wants their porch screened in. I’ve done a fair amount of interior trim work for them, and they’ve like it.
Unfortunately, the last time I screened a porch, Methusala was in prep school. As a result, I don’t know what’s available, what’s best, etc.
There are a few challenges with this job too. First is the customer request that no metal be used — they really do like the look of wood.
Next is their request to keep the iron railings (see the pics) and put the screening just outside of them, but not all the way out on the face of the brick. (That one is even more difficult when you look at the stair-descending rails. This will require that the rails be cut from the post, and attached to whatever screen-framing I install.)
Third is their desire for old-style screen doors (wood) that are 42″ wide, 84″ tall.
Oh — and they don’t want the final product to look heavy or clunky, and please, no rot or rot-prone stuff.
The three arches are about 65″ each. The front and back stair openings are a bit bigger than 96″ each. There is a small arch that can be seen in pic #1 that is about 48″ wide. The arches are just tall enough that there will be a rather small screened-space above an 84″ door in the wide ends.
I’m thinking that I can order the doors — 42 X 84 should be easy enough for a door shop. And maybe I can get it made from 5/4 stock.
Questions:
1. Do you think that door jambs I build out of 5/4 X 6 stock (on the flat) will be strong enough to hold those doors?
2. Am I stuck with PT lumber? Certainly PVC would look and last better, but it hardly holds its own weight — let alone doors. Is there any other suggestion — and remember that the bottom of the screen frames will be resting on the stone floor.
3. Just in case I can talk them into aluminum framing (my preference, but keep reading) is there a product that can be neatly fit into those nice-looking archways? I’m certain that this customer (very style-oriented) will not settle for changing the look to rectangles.
Thanks in advance……..
I won’t be laughing at the lies when I’m gone,
And I can’t question how or when or why when I’m gone;
I can’t live proud enough to die when I’m gone,
So I guess I’ll have to do it while I’m here. (Phil Ochs)
Replies
How about spline and screen. Set up a small lam router with the right size bit to fit the rubber(vinyl) bead used to hold screen in the groove. A guide for the set back is necessary-mine has one. You might have to free hand the corners and transition of the arch. Add a rail to the bottom, held just off the porch floor and even with their existing frames.
The door, divide the arch with the same thickness (depth) verticals as the existing arches. Build your door to fit and swing in. Arch that too if you think that's the look.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
5/4x6 jambs would be strong enough to hold anything, but I'm thinking that if you do it that way, it's gonna look clunky. Which they don't want. Think face frame with inset doors, like a cabinet front. You may wind up laminating the arch tops.
Build 'em out of clear red cedar; very light, very rot resistant. 5/4 stock, I'd think.
Leave the railings outside the screens. It looks like you've got enough room to glue and screw the frame edges to the existing trim just inside the plane the railings are mounted in.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
>>"Leave the railings outside the screens."I wish I could. That was one of the "givens" from the customer. They want to be able to sit inside the screened room, and still enjoy the look of the iron work (perhaps because they paid dearly for it?)Arch the doors to match -- wow, now that's a great idea. The customer would love it.Laminating the arch tops was among my thoughts, but they are gentle enough curves that I might be able to scribe solid wood into place. Red cedar would be good, but here in NC, cypress is just as good, and a lot more available.But even cypress is going to rot when I attach it to the stone floor. I'm starting to think in terms of some sort of standoff (maybe a couple of stainless washers) between the wood and the stone. And attaching to the stone -- maybe pocket screws that are stainless, filling the holes with pvc plugs.......And that question of attachment to the stone, while not allowing rot, has me wondering about how to effectively attach the door jamb verticals to the stone. Do you think pocket screws are good enough?
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
To attach the bottoms of the fixed panels to the stone deck you should find some aluminum or brass channel extrusions that will hold the bottom edge of the wood off the deck by a quarter inch or so. Say something that looks like a capital E laid on its back with the legs stucking up. Then drill a buncha holes in the bottom of the extrusion so it'll drain, and set it on the stone with Tap-Cons but don't caulk it to the deck. Or at least, only caulk the inside edge; it's gotta be able to drain.
The door bottoms will require sweeps of nylon bristle or soft neoprene weatherstripping.
As for the jambs, I'd use keyholes and draw-tight hardware threaded into inserts expoxied into the stone. Scribe the wood to match the stone, of course.
Yer gonna have fun on this one....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Edited 9/14/2009 6:13 pm ET by Dinosaur
Excellent idea.(the aluminum channel under the base-frame-pieces).... thank youAnd i understand fully about not caulking the bottom edges --- this room has to be able to drain when the rain comes in thru the screens.And your idea of keyholes and draw-tights is great too.I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
>> >>"Leave the railings outside the screens."I wish I could. That was one of the "givens" from the customer. They want to be able to sit inside the screened room, and still enjoy the look of the iron work (perhaps because they paid dearly for it?) <<
Perhaps you could walk them out into their yard and explain how it would look better from the outside to have the screens inside. I mean, if they are sitting on the porch, they should be able to easily admire the iron through the screen.
Beautiful porch, hate to see it covered up by screens, But you gotta do what ya gotta do... carry on...
Work for the greatest vital intensity - the greatest solidity and aesthetic reality. Finally, eleminate everything non-essential. Reduce to the absolute essence. ~ F.C. Trucksess
>>"Think face frame with inset doors, like a cabinet front."That's pretty much how I was thinking. 5/4 X 6 verticals, "on the flat" would make the vertical portions of the face frame -- the vertical jambs. Another, also on the flat, would form the top of the face frame -- the head jamb.("on the flat" -- the 5-1/2" dimension of the board would run parallel to the stair noses. This face frame would be 1" thick, as would be the door.)
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
You want to be thinking Cypress there in NC. It's harvested close so the cost is not crazy high compared to some other as good species. Its strength to weight ratio and cost make it a really good choice for the mill work.
5/4 for doors is a given, any shop that would propose thinner is not for you. I'd even ( depending on hardware choices) consider 6/4 ( finish thickness 1 3/8th" ) for the door(s) and jambs are fine at 1 1/8" fin.
Gotta run. Good luck
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"
Jed Clampitt
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For these doors (the screen room, with 42" by 84" doors), I was thinking 5/4 stock for stiles and rails.Do you think I could get away using 5/4 by a full 4"? I'd like to do this, since the vertical jambs will already be 5-1/2" wide. Adding the jamb width to the stile width -- I need to avoid the clunky look as much as possible.(And let's assume that I'll be able to get them built using mortise and full-length tenons. And maybe further assume that I'll want one center -- knob-height -- rail, with a bottom-half-only vertical at the middle.)
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
An important screen door design includes the butt factor.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
You can pull that off in cypress, but earlier someone mentioned cedar, I assume WRC, and no way would I use that for a door without a large kick rail and large lock rail. It's just too soft for the tennons to last from the racking.
Even in Cypress, that kick rail is doing most of the work and needs to be multiple tennons, not one big wide one, due to cross grain issues.
Any door over 3/0 starts getting funky quick , what with racking and closer forces warping them.
Be ready for a few headaches.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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we did kinda what calvin said. cept we used 1 1/2 square stock and routered a groove in it for the screen and spline
we laminated our arch which was about a 2' radius with 1/8 strips
would never even consider PT for a door or frame cedar, cypress,redwood, fir I'd use spf 2x4's before i'd consider PT
just my 2 cents
When you built yours, and routed the spline-groove.......Did you use something to cover the splines when all was done? Or did you jut trim the screen closely, and leave it?I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
Normally, you just trim the screen off tight to the spline--right down inside the groove, that is to say--and that's the end of it. Pretty much all commercial screens are made this way now, and people are used to seeing the spline as a sort of 'border' around the window opening.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
As far as the railing going up the stairs. I think you need to stop them with a post under it on the outside and on the inside with a post.
Or, if there is a solid panel or wood post to attch to you can cut it and attach with a "L" bracket below the railing.
There are a bunch of these L brackets just for this.
I used http://www.kingmetals.com/ for my metal fence parts. They have every part you could imagine.
Will Rogers
Edited 9/14/2009 6:28 pm by popawheelie
>>"As far as the railing going up the stairs. "For me this part of the design is simple to think through, though it might be tricky to execute, and even trickier to convince the customer of the design.(if needed, go back to post #1 and see the pics)The finial'd post at the corner of each "down-going" rail will need to be separated (cut) from the "down-going" portion of the rail.I'll then build the screen wall with the door. It will need to have a vertical frame-member directly in front of the finial'd post.Then, using brackets such as those you suggest, the down-going rails will be attached to the vertical frame member.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
Bogus pictures but it might give you an idea of the spline/screen set up.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
That would work as long as there is something to attatch it to.
The L brackets weld on the bottom side.
I just got done designing and building my metal fence so I thought I'd throw that out there.
"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
>> their desire for old-style screen doors (wood) that are 42" wide, 84" tall. <<
You are gonna have to guarantee those - guarantee that they will warp that is.
I like screen panels. You get them fabricated to your size. They are made out of the same material that a regular aluminum framed window screen is made out of with the rubber bead that secures the screen in the frame and makes screen replacement very easy. Usually they come out and measure. I can give you a contact or 2 if you want. They can give you pricing on the phone. In the attached pic the (charcoal fiberglass) screen is outside the railings; it gives a very clean look from the inside. In your case you could use some wood strips to build a frame that the screen panels would be counted to with some removable wood strips to hide the metal frames and fastening. If you are interested I'll get a close up pic form outside that shows the screen panel attachment when it is light outside. In the pic the panels are about 6'x9' tall - the largest I've ever seen. You see these a lot on upper end homes - the beauty being the ease of replacing a damaged screen. To me, with screened porches, it isn't a question of 'if' the screen gets damaged, but rather a question of 'when' the screen gets damaged. Maybe that is because we have a slew of pets, but kids can be hard on them too.
The issue with the railing looks like a tough one. Seems like the railing would need to be modified.
Edited 9/15/2009 6:58 am ET by Matt
I've seen panels like that, and I've used them a few times myself.But are you aware of any such frame-materials, that will easily bend into the tops of the arches that are in my pics?These homeowners are quite particular. And perhaps they should be -- their home is probably among the ten finest in the county. Andone of their stipulations was that the arches -- specifically the 'look and feel' -- will not be compromised. (So, no rectangular openings when done.)Without that ability to bend into the arches, I can't use such materials.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
That could be a show stopper... :-) But it will be a problem no matter what avenue you take. Call Stephens in Fuquay varina and ask them about the screen panels.
BTW - I'll be curious to see what it looks like once you are done...
And also BTW - is that the front porch or back porch?
Edited 9/15/2009 10:05 pm ET by Matt
That's the strangest name of a town I have ever seen.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
It's actually 2 towns, separated by a railroad track, that merged into one. Not exactly a cultural center though... :-)
As Matt said -- Fuquay-Varina was once two separate towns, separated by railroad tracks (which still run through the middle.I haven't lived near there long enough to remember, but I've heard from those that have.........The two separate towns merged sometime after the Jim Crow laws went away. And prior to that, they were separate due to the Jim Crow laws (more or less anyway).To their credit, the people of the two towns seem to have truly merged -- not just in name and government, but in other ways too. Well enough that most of us Yankees who have moved here can't tell which side of the tracks was which.(And just in case there's someone reading who knows that answer, please don't reply and post it -- I prefer not knowing.)
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
>>"And also BTW - is that the front porch or back porch?"It is a side porch. Actually, one of two side porches at this house. The other is not under a roof, but is just as pleasing to look at.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
Holy cow, you're gettin' all sorts of good help with this one! Please do us all a favor and put up some pics when you're done.Thanks,Scott.
I would be thinking Spanish Cedar or Swietenia (true mahogany). Expensive but will last.
Jeff
I would think outside oh the box on this one.
I would work with a screen company and a wrought iron fence fabricator and make my framing completely out of wrought iron.
I would have channels with removable plates to set the screens in.
I would attach channels to bothe sides of the hand rails that would have a filler the width of the rail.
I think I would even try to make my screen doors wrought iron.
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
PS:
>> Third is their desire for old-style screen doors (wood) that are 42" wide, 84" tall. <<
If you are saying a 42" wide door that is hinged, that is pretty impractical. If it swung out over the steps, that would be very cumbersome at best and maybe even a bit dangerous. If a 42" wide door were to swing in it would take up too much floor space just to operate the door. That leaves either a smaller door(s) or a sliding door as options.
was messing around with this mentally and through together a model (good challenges are always fun).
If it was me I'd make the frames (mortise & tenonned) out of cypress like Duane suggested. Fit them to the opening and then pocket screw to the sides. You already got a jamb starting with the arch tops where they left a little extra. I'd continue that down after slipping the new screens into place. If you have to (and are allowed) move the straight rails in to allow room for the screens. Use Dinosaurs extrusion idea at the bottom. You can spline the screens to the indside and then screw on an overlay to hide it all.
Haven't got a good idea for the stair area yet other than cut the railings and flanges added to the ends so they can be attached to the framework reqd to to support the door.
Haven't kept up on efverything in the thread so far, maybe this was already suggested?