Hello,
I am planning to build a deck this spring. Was planning on using red cedar, but when I started looking at what was available at the local lumberyards, all I could find was a bunch of really knotty sapwood. I decided to give Bear Creek Lumber a call. The salesman tried to sell me on Port Orford, because it was alot stronger and harder with less knots.
Have any of you guys ever used POC and can you tell me how it is to work with? Also, has anybody ever dealt with BCL, good or bad luck?
Thank You.
Replies
Thew porch on my house is POC. I have used it clear for some exterior trim work and to build planters.
I like the product, but how many knots depends on the grade you buy, like anything else. Clear comes at a premium price.
It is hard which is good for a deck, and it is rot resistant. but the downside is that the sawduyst is mildly toxic so be sure you wear a respirator and use dust control equipment when possible.I had a reaction to it that felt to me like a heart attack. Turned out to be a pneumatic inflamation in my lungs caused by the dust. Doctor's treatment was simple, avoid it. He said it would effect some people more than others.
At the same time, I had some guys who claimed that it didn't bother them at all. I needed some window boxes built out of it and they went to the home shop to build during a couple of rainy days.
next time I saw them, they all seemed to have hay fever.
And the guy who owns the shop still notices the dust perfume every time he walks in.
I think they had doine OK as long as it was occasional exposure outdoors but once they got to working it full time for a couple days, they got sensitized.
Excellence is its own reward!
You should really look into Ipe` which is a harder more rot resistant deck wood sold under the name Ironwoods in some locations. that wqould be my first choice in a wood deck. Correct deck would get the vote for manmde composites.
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for your input. I knew it was stronger and more rot resistant, but I didn't know about the toxicity. Does the wood take and hold stain very well? As for Ipe, I was trying to keep costs down somewhat, that stuff is pretty pticey isn't it?
I used it once for a deck at the clients request. I loved it. It was good clean material (5/4 x 6) and it weathered to an almost velvety silver. Easy to work with. I'd say oily based on how water seemed to bead on it at least when fresh. I'd say that was close to twenty years ago and the deck is still in good shape.
I had to look around for it and since then have been unable to locate it. I was told that the number of trees harvested annually is limited. Dont know how true that is.
PO is in Wash state or Oregon? Piff?
Eric
PO only grows on the Oregon coast. At least that is what I was told. Thinking of having it shipped to Indiana from Washington. It's about the same price for 5/4 PO as I can buy 2X red cedar around here.
Al
I live in the middle of where the stuff grows and I like it a lot for many uses....and it smells great!
As Pif says, watch the grade, however. Like any deck wood, you want heartwood. The sap wood of POC has ZERO rot resistance and since it is just a slightly different shade of cream color (a little lighter) than the heartwood, you have to give it more scrutiny.
POC is subject to a fungal root disease that is killing a lot of it out here (doesn't affect the milled wood), and some of those dead trees are harvested, milled and sold in a variety of configs.
A lot of that wood is 2nd growth, or otherwise juvenile trees and has less rot resistance than the old growth. So before you purchase any, check the growth rings. I would avoid any for a deck that had less than 7 or 8 rings per inch.
And make sure the knots are very tight and part of the wood rather than loose or crumbly in their centers.
And a strong aroma of the wood is usually directly proportional to good rot resistance (some of the juvenile wood has just a very mild odor).
Pif has cautioned several times on this forum the toxicity of POC. While I don't doubt him for a minute, I've never known of anyone out here reacting to it. I've sawed it for days on end on a portable mill, had my nose full of the dust with no problems. I DO know of many people out here with terrible reactions to Western Red Cedar, Redwood, Pacific Yew, Black Walnut, et al.
I guess the message is that any wood species with inherent rot resistance has some toxins that can be dangerous....respirators and eye protection are always recommended.
Since I was planning on having it shipped out here, I wouldn't be able to check the wood out before I bought it. The stuff I was quoted was select tight knot. The salesman said it was mostly heartwood. Have you ever dealt with Bear Creek before?
Al
Bear Creek, if I recall, is a retail yard....I've never dealt with them...just see their ads in magazines. They've been around awhile so I assume they're reputable.
You might call East Fork Lumber. They're a small sawmill near me that I've dealt with a lot over the years and they cut mostly POC and some WRC. Since you're out of the area, they might, at least give you some square info about sources. It's likely that Bear Creek is one of their customers.
(541) 572-5732
Regarding staining, POC takes stain a little less willingly than other species. I've had the best luck with Sikkens on a deck, but be sure you do some trials first, because the color won't end up being what you might expect. We've also used Penofin with good success on POC caps, rails and shingles (not on the deck).
Thank you for all your help. I am going to call East Fork tomorrow. I'm still having trouble deciding whether it's worth the extra trouble in getting the POC, as opposed to the red cedar locally available. As a guy who has both species of wood readily available, how much do you prefer POC over WRC.
Al
definitely.
Excellence is its own reward!
Given a choice of good quality in either, I'd go for the POC, for all the reasons mentioned by both you and Piffen.
It's also a nice wood to carve, use in boatbuilding, or just lay around the house for it's nice aroma. (Even the scraps have purpose).
As for strength, there are some old fishing boats out here with POC keels, ribs, knees, planks and decks.
The really good stuff got diverted to export in log form to Japan a few years ago and became prohibitively expensive. I think that market has pretty much gone away....along with most of the Old Growth timber that is not in public land.
A great portion of the OG was harvested in the 1st half of the last century and made into battery separators.
My first exposure to POC was, as a kid, using it for arrow shafts. There's still a small factory out here that makes arrow shaft stock for traditional archers.
Good luck to you!
I guess I am still leary about buying wood that I can't see first. I have some time to think about it, as will not be building until spring.
Again, thanks everyone, you've been a big help.
Maybe they can arrange to have you sent a sample of it.
Excellence is its own reward!
never bought from them but they are back from the Earth Mother Days
can't imagine a more consumer friendly organization - and I think I'm correct in that the owners name is Cloud I receive a quarterly or so nice newsletter w/ fine color pictures of customers projects and their products and they try to give me a free gift every year around Xmas time - I accepted the first year a nice little tape measure
as Pippin says Ipe good way to go - I have never seen Ipe in less than a select / clear state - Western Red tight knot is a far cry from select - i would imagine POC to be close to the same in grading - think you'll find Ipe priced lower than higher grades of cedar / a comparison for your pricing and grading might be a clear "C" and better WRC = to Ipe ( and those boys in Winthrop should have Ipe )
also might note a 1 X 6 piece of Ipe spans as well or better than 2 X 6 WRC but maybe not as stable when considering cupping POC probably spans better than WRC but so close to the same ilk
the salesman is being candid when he says "mostly" heartwood - would they package all heartwood - what happens to the price - I bet they would uncover a unit and send you a digital photo
Notchman it has been many moons but I think my cousin worked at that arrow factory - near Powers?
Thanks for your input, John. I have already considered having them e-mail me a photo, but as Notchman was saying there isn't much difference in color between sap and heart. I looked at Lumber Liguidators web site this morning, for Ipe, it was listed cheaper than 2X WRC or 5/4 POC. Don,t know about the lengths though. I am going to take a closer look at going that route. I 've heard that all fasteners must be predrilled and that it is hard on bits and blades. Is this true, or was I being misled in thinking that.
I looked at Lumber Liguidators web site this morning, for Ipe, it was listed cheaper than 2X WRC or 5/4 POC.
Be careful not to get confused re: sq. ft. vs lin. ft and so on..........
Eric
Yeah, I was comparing 6 inch stock per lineal ft. The cheapest I can find 2X6 WRC in my area is 10 cents per lineal ft. more. The 5/4 POC from Bear Creek was the same price plus shipping costs. Have you worked with Ipe much? Hidden fasteners or screwed?
Ipe needs to be predrilled from what I know, not from experience.
I've seen some of the hidden fastening systems that look like a well designed usable product and others that did'nt.
I know some who might jump on me for this; but for fastening certain deck boards I have randomly nailed the boards down with 8d galv box nails or 8d finish. The theory being that the board will relax instead of fighting against the nails that are going to loose the battle any way. I'f you've never tried it it sounds like poppycock but it actually works pretty well.
I've also used a 15 guage finish nailer and can't say they held well.
Eric
IPE` does give your tools a workout. It is not only veryhard and strong, but the rot/insect resistence comes from high content of sulphur and metal salts. There is also a waxy substance like pine pitch.
So what happens is that the teeth get a little dull while also building up a yellow sulphur wax on the faces of them. Then the blade overheats. You gotta spend time cleaning the bits and blades regularly..
Excellence is its own reward!
I,m starting to lean more towards the Ipe for the decking. What kinda of wood for the railings?
Merantii, Red cedar, CVG Fir, composites.
Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, WRC was what I was thinking about using. That should look OK together souldn't it?
Looks?
Can't beat it!
Paintable or clear..
Excellence is its own reward!
albee hidden fasteners Eb-ty name of product & website expensive laborious and exquisite - others but this is best I've experienced / comes "kit" form w/ ssscrews(sq. drive ) plastic bisquit fasteners w/ a dozen or so wood plugs - confirm all this prior to purchase. I would say if the box says good for 100 sq ft you can easily get 130 sq ft use out of material unless you are in an obscenely hot sun zone - very stable wood 5/4 more stable than 1 X
ss screws from top w/ plugs beautiful too!
one of the most beau porches/decks I've seen was from one of our cronies on this board ( I think very novice carpenter and not more than a month ago ) used the ssscrews mentioned and was pleased w/ the results w/out any finish over them - think he was eventually going to fill w/ sawdust/glue mixture - by the way Ipe sands beautifully McFeelys store w/ all the goods except Ipe
Notchman usually in touch w/ my cousin around holidays but missed him of late
rumors he's buying / or has bought again in Powers 25yrs ago he was the Powers superintedent of public schools, school principal, bus driver,science teacher, JVbasketball coach, CC coach and yearbook adviser and father of 4 growin boys and their mother left them all in the same year! The Coquille right ? I was just there in time for pickled Steelhead still can taste it!
I like the concept of the EB-TY fasteners but have heard some negative comments here about them not handling the stresses of wood movement with hot sun drying and cupping boards. I remain hesitant..
Excellence is its own reward!
I concur wholeheartedly But are they ever a right on means of fastening when one takes all situations into acccount : w/ the 5/4 I've never seen it move more than 1/8th in a cupping fashion and not much of anything is going to hold it back ; bark up ( a oh is that a whole new thread ) w/ glue and sscrew eb-ty combo and if that moves it's getting a plugged face screw no doubt
the 1X material here nets at 13/16" I think and you close down your joist centers ( and put a fastener at each joist which I don't do w/ 5/4 much at all and if 1X is in shade it might get a fastener only once every 36" or so )
I don't know if it's the combo of glue, eb-ty and hardwood but there is a very special almost give to the decking
I'm PNW - maybe if I were in a more tropical clime I'd change my tune - more face screwing w/ a bigger size stainless screw - the ones proffered by eb-ty have the strength of an 8d finish nail But they are workin' great! and you know what a stable wood it is
nothing new but a little experience from the left coast Piffin salud John
Thanks again everybody for your input. I think I'll go with the Ipe decking and WRC for the railings. You guys have been a big help.
Al
Re: Arrow factory
That's the one, John. I believe they're still going, but good bolts of POC for arrow stock are getting harder to come by so the operation is pretty small....mostly just the family now.
BTW, if your cousin hasn't been to Powers in awhile, he might be interested to know that it hasn't changed a bit....and the Steelhead fishing is still good!
I think it is a sensitivity issue. Different people are different.
I am allergic to aspirin but I took it for years before developing the sensitivity. I hear of peolpe who only become reactive to bee stings after three or four stings. Others get to where they are immune to feeling the venom after a few stings every week.
I suppose also that with regards to the PO that it might make a diff whether the wood is dry or green and whether it is sapwood or heart.
But yes, the overall lesson is that there is a reason why certain woods are rot resistant. and that reasson sometimes is because there are chemicals in the wood by nature that kill certain natural life processes.
with other woods, it is simply an abundance of oils in the wood cell that exclude one or more of the items necessary for mold or bacteria to digest the cellulose and lignans. Oil can exclude oxygen or water from entering the cell on a molecular level. When we apply oil stain or finish, we are doing the same thi8ng on the surface level.
As to the staining question, my experience is that because the wood is so hard, penetrating stains don't get in. I get a surface finish only that tends to wear off in high traffic areas every couple of years. I think mine is about six years old and it shows no damage from weather at all, only the wear path in the stain..
Excellence is its own reward!
There was a family owned yard where I used to live that carried POC the premium stuff. I tried it and fell in love with it and for several years used it whenever I could. The dust never bothered me, in fact I loved the smell and it lingered for months in my shop after using it. The yard doesn't exsist anymore (thank you HD), and I have moved, and I miss working with the stuff. I now live in Bucks Co Pa. near Trenton NJ and mostly work in Princeton NJ area. Anyone know of a place nearby? The clear wood is also great for doing carvings, reliefs etc. of any kind. Much of it is shipped to Japan where they love the stuff and use it when they rebuild their temples. They pay a pretty penny for it.