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Possibly buying a house: aren’t these serious structural issues?

bk1000 | Posted in General Discussion on April 8, 2014 10:58am

I could use some thoughts on this:

I am a homeowner, but I do tinker. Enough to recognize possible red flags.

We are looking for a new house, and my wife has fallen in love with one. I have structural reservations, and am wondering if I am paranoid/over-reacting.

The house was built in 1977 (so 37 years old), and I would say has only been moderately maintained. For example, while the floors look nice, most of the windows are original (or close to original), and though double-pain, they have all popped and not been replaced. The framing on a number of windows has failed and are now drafty. So, draft windows that are cloudy inbetween — and you don’t replace them?? That’s not an issue for me — just an indication of how the house has been maintained. Here are my structural issues:

1) The lower level is framed with 2X8s over a span of about 12 feet (house is 24′ front to back, and the 2X8 run is split with a beam in the middle caught by columns in the basement). The basement is unfinished. The floors are bouncy on the first floor. Looking at span tables, this run seems to me to be at the endge of the 2X8s abilities. The floors are also bouncy on the 2nd floor, and in at least one of the rooms, the floor feels uneven (though that room is carpeted, so I can’t really tell why). Of course, I can’t see how the 2nd floor is framed.

2) Most of the foundation is full basement, poured concrete. But two areas are  crawl space with poured concrete walls. Supposedly crawl space, actually. In one area, the crawl space has zero access from outside or from the basement. I have no idea what is under that room. Another section of crawl space can be seen if you stick your head up in the joist runs. The crawl space is only about 2′ tall, though with a poured concrete slab. You can only access that space through the 7 1/4″ floor joist bay, so there’s no getting in there. I had to drop a camera in there, to get a look around. There is no insultation in the joists in this crawl space section, so I am assuming none in the other, either, and really no way to add it?? (the house is in the northeast)

3) There’s an add-on area (for a mudroom that connects to the garage), that extends out over the second crawl space (the one I can look around in with a camera). Let’s say the main house joists run north-south. This area runs east-west. The joists for this space start in the basement, and are therefore are nailed into a double 2X8 header. HOWEVER, this header has no joist hangers to hold it. It appears to just be end-nailed. Additionally, the joists coming off the header had no hangers, either. They are just  end nailed.

4) There are a number of cantilevered portions of the house both on the first and second floor, but given issues #2 and 3 above, I have little confidence in these. I hate cantilevers anyway. But I’m even more dubious of cantilevers from 1970. We’ve learned so much since then.

5) The broker said the basement has had no water “except through the crack, which has been repaired by CrackX” The crack is a long vertical crack in the center run of the foundation. I never saw the crack, I can only see the repair, which is about 2″ wide and runs the whole height of the foundation. Because the property sits below the street grade, the yard is pretty muddy right now, with standing pools of water (spring thaw). Our current house does not have this, about a mile away (same town). So, I’m wondering if there is ledge below keeping the water around, and could there be water pushing on the foundation?? Why did this crack form after 37 years, and why did water come in once it was open?

Writing this all out makes me really think this is a house to avoid, but the Mrs. is hooked on the inground pool, yard, and neighborhood and raw square footage on the house (the neighborhood is hard to buy into, and this is priced as a fixer-upper), but i’m thinking the structural red flags make me want to avoid it.

 

Any thoughts on any of the above?

Reply

Replies

  1. renosteinke | Apr 08, 2014 11:56am | #1

    First off, go with your gut. If you're nervous now, you will never be at ease.

    Broker says? Please ..... when I was house-hunting I was showen, steered toward even, two houses with severe structural issues and two properties with flawed titles. 

    Another thing I often see is a property declining over years, lacking any maintenance at all ... then, come sale time, a flurry of quick cosmetic fixes. 

    What you can do is visit city hall and see the plans and permits for the property. I suspect the house has had many additions and alterations over the years - work done by incompetent parties and without permits. 

    Talk to the neighbors, and I bet you learn the place was a rental - the cynic in me suspects the broker was the landlord. 

    My post is colored by my experiences, both as homeowner and contractor.

    As an electrical contractor, nearly every residential service call traces back to something done by a handyman, to something changed or added since the house was built. Rentals are particularly troublesome, as the property has often been divided into multiple units, porches have been converted into rooms, etc.

    As a homeowner, the major problems I've found have been created by -you guessed it- changes made over the years by the owners. The owners simply didn't know any better- and set the stage for bad things to happen. Bad things like massive water damage, rot, termites, etc.

  2. AndyEngel | Apr 08, 2014 02:24pm | #2

    Inaccessible crawlspace?

    That would concern me. A lot. And a 2 in. wide foundation crack, even if it's filled? Yikes! I've rarely seen one that big. Not to mention the tens of thousands of dollars you'll have to put into windows and, mosty likely, rot repair. Run Forrest, run.

  3. DanH | Apr 08, 2014 06:51pm | #3

    Basically nothing that's surprising for a house that age -- could be our house (built in 1976) except we don't have any crawl spaces, and only about an 18" cantilever.

    Our windows were drafty even when new, until I pulled the trim off of most of them and foamed around.  We do have a few that are clouded and will need to be replaced, but the bulk are Andersens in good condition and perfectly sound after 37 years.

    As to the swampy yard, that indicates that the yard needs to be properly graded so that water doesn't stand.

    I would say the house isn't going to fall apart, nor is there anything that smacks of poor maintenance or neglect, just not particularly aggressive maintenance.  (You don't mention the exterior paint BTW.  That's an area where poor maintenance can cause problems worse than many other areas.)

  4. bk1000 | Apr 08, 2014 08:23pm | #4

    Siding material is wooden shingles (or shakes). I'm not sure of the original material.

  5. bk1000 | Apr 08, 2014 08:27pm | #5

    Here is a screen capture of the foundation crack repair. I should have taken a video. This is a frame from a video taken in the basement. It's behind the red column there, under the stairs.

    Also attached is a picture of the crawl space.

    1. DanH | Apr 08, 2014 08:55pm | #6

      Note that a repair from the inside will not prevent a wall from leaking.  The way to prevent leaking is to remove the water on the outside, first through proper slope and drainage, and if that doesn't work, by tiling the foundation.

      1. bk1000 | Apr 08, 2014 09:15pm | #7

        The bad thing is the crack faces the crawl space, so I can't access the foundation from the outside.

        1. User avater
          spclark | Apr 14, 2014 07:30pm | #8

          Walking in My Footsteps...

          ... it sound like.

          Save for the 2nd floor, in-ground pool & cantilevers that is!

          Last August I made a leap of faith in agreeing to make an offer for a house my wife found on her own. We'd been looking at places since 2006 in a nice area up in Wisconsin, repeatedly frustrated by problems (RUN AWAY!!!) with properties we toured both together and solo.

          We moved in early last November.

          2x8 floor joists spanning up to 14' (on 12" centers mostly so OK with span tables I've seen), single layer of 5/8" T&G plywood nailed to joists for flooring (squeaks as much from the dried-out construction adhesive as the nails & wedges previous owner drove between flooring & joists to "fix" the squeaks), cracks in the basement foundation that the prior owner had attempted to fix by mortaring over with what looks like hydraulic cement, then painting over....

          Answered "no" on the sellers disclosure to the question about basement wall cracks / leaks too though it's obvious he knew & just chose to lie about it. (How do you spell FRAUD?)

          As for your crack(s): Simpson (the Strong-Tie folks) make two products called Crack-Pac:

          http://www.strongtie.com/products/anchorsystems/adhesives/crackrepair/crack_pac_flex_h20.html

          One uses epoxy for a sealant, the other a urethane product. Both come in kits that have what you need to do a pretty good job of sealing up things like this from the exposed side. The urethane's what I chose as I had "damp" cracks to deal with & the urethane foams up to fill small crevices before curing on contact with water. In the one crack I've sealed up so far the sealant expanded to fill the crack thru to the exposed foundation exterior above the soil level at the window opening where the crack begins. I expect it also propagated thru the crack beneath the soil too.

          I've done one crack so far, the next will be done this weekend. Pic of part of the crack I've sealed up is below. You secure plastic injection "ports" over the crack every 8" or so with epoxy included in the kit, then cover the crack itself with more epoxy to contain sealeant once it's injected. Sealant comes in cartridges that fit a standard caulking gun.

          I'd steer clear of any property with a 2" wide open crack in the foundation, but if a prior repair attempt left a 2" wide stripe of some kind of material over a crack no wider than 1/4" max., the stuff I used is supposed to work well.

          In the place you describe though if water's coming thru that 'repaired' crack from under the slab in the crawlspace behind the cracked wall, there's more to the problem than just a cracked foundation. There shouldn't be water under that slab IMHO.

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