I opened a discussion on this subject awhile back, and I recall Tim Uhler understanding where I was coming from, since he uses a similar system. I haven’t cut a real roof in years, but when I was production framing a lot of cut-up multi-hipped roofs, I got into pre-cutting the entire roof ahead of time. In a sense, its no different than the truss mf’g. does it – he gets the blue prints, and goes to work using those dimensions.
“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles Greene
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Myself, I would snap out the house, then proceed to use the same dimensions to cut the roof, while the crew framed the house. The key, of course, was stick to the snapped lines, and keep it all plumb and lined neatly. I cut my hips in “quadrants”, which is what I called the set of jack rafters up one side of the hip. I always pulled my layout in from the corner, so the jack rafters always followed a tidy (and identical) layout at the hip, and I had to make any adjustments somewhere in the middle. Careful layout of the rafters and ceiling joists was critical, and the guy cutting the roof has to be the one to mark layout on the top plate.
“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
I would map out the entire roof, every stick, on a piece of graph paper, and use that to cut the whole package. Each jack rafter had starter nails at the top, which were used to hang them from the plate, and made nailing quick and easy. The quadrants were stacked neatly, and marked for identification.
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
The hips and ridges went up first, with a few common rafters as needed to hold the ridge in place. Once the framework of hips valleys and ridges was up, and checked to make sure it all planed in properly, the “fill” began, with jacks and commons.
“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/14/2007 10:02 pm by Huck
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
framers - gotta love 'em
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
sorry if there's some redundancy in these photos. I have a lot, and haven't really edited them down to a bare minimum.
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
The actual stack portion of the cut-and-stack went very quickly, probably similar to a truss roof. A good sized house would go up in a day. The photos here are old – but I finally got them digitized so I could post them on the internet, which I promised Tim Uhler I would do someday. And I just got them back.
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 8/14/2009 5:30 pm by Huck
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
As I recall, this is a 2300 sq. ft. house, I think the pitch was 5:12, with a 24” overhang, square-cut fascia, and 24” o.c. layout. The pictures here were taken in about a 3-4 hour span. We would have had the whole house stacked out in one day’s worth of photos, but the photographer got held up, and didn’t show up until mid-day.
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 8/14/2009 8:29 pm by Huck
Since we had planned this day for a photo-shoot, we dikt around all morning, doing pickup framing, and waiting for the picture-taker. When the photographer finally showed, he took some pictures of the stacks of jacks, and we began spreading them, put the hips and ridges up, and filled in a good portion of the jack and common rafters.
“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
I know some people don’t see the advantage in this system, and others will say its no big deal. But it was a big deal for me. It took a leap of faith to do it the first time, and I sweated bullets until the day it went together. But once I tried it, I loved it. It was really impressive to see the roof go up in a day, and it really minimized the stand-around time my crew used to experience while I scratched my head and tried to figure the cuts.
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
I originally started with a CM calculator. But for some reason I don’t recall, I liked my less-expensive trig calculator better, and ended up using it for my roof cutting, and dumping the CM.
“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
Anyway, for what it's worth, here’s a photo record of a few hours of serious roof-stacking.
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
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“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
So that's it. It was always a lot of pressure, but an adrenalin rush at the same time, the day it went together. Don't know if anyone else does it this way, but I'd love to hear from you if you do. The crew loved it, btw.
“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
Oh yeah, you can see the whole thing in slide-show format here
“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
Cool thread.
Now thats a new one........blame it on the photographer!!!!!!
Great thread and pics. How many houses did you do like this? I dont think I could sleep the night before assembly day ( to worried I messed something up).Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
How many houses did you do like this? I dont think I could sleep the night before assembly day ( to worried I messed something up).
I never kept track, but it seems like I did a lot - enough to realize I was gonna lose my butt if I didn't figure out a faster system, but not enough to make any real money once I did figure out a faster system!
I didn't sleep good the night before this one - FHB was coming out to take pics, and I kept thinking, What if I screwed this one up royally!
Charles Miller took the pics - a super nice guy. But he got held up somehow, and didn't show up until lunch time. Unfortunately, the story got cancelled for being too technical, or too esoteric, or too something or other! Charles was nice enough to mail me the transparencies, which I sat on for years. Finally got off my butt and had them digitized - cost me about $1 apiece.
“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
Not to be a wise guy here, but if you can precut the roof frame, why not the whole shebang? Every stud, jack, cripple, whatever, in the whole thing?
Why not? You are basically the one-man shop drawing detailer and chop shop for the "pre-engineered" wooden house frame.
Sears Roebuck did it for many tens of thousands of house packages, almost a hundred years ago, and panel and component plants do it today, in even larger scale.
You can tell those framers to stay off the job until you have it completely done, all whacked and stacked. More peace and quiet, that way.
Food for thought. It could be done. Seems to me I read a story somewhere a long time ago about a contractor who filled in his rainy day time doing just that, in his shop. If a builder built plenty of the same model, I think it would be apropos. Work out the bugs on a prototype, and then mass-produce the kits.
Or, like you said, one guy could figure and cut the whole thing, mark the parts and band component sections. Don't bring the crew out until its all ready to go. IIRC in the Bible it says thats basically what Solomon did when he built the temple - pre-cut everything off-site, and then transported it for assembly.
In my system however, the crew frames walls and ceilings while I cut the roof. When they're ready for the roof, its ready for them.
“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
Classic 80's framing. High tops, flourescent surf tank tops. Funny bro,check the white boys walkin plate.
I speak more spanish than english these days. Nothin personal but what happened to all the white boys.
How about a pic cutting tails.
Thanks for the pics. Good memories.
Nice photo essay. I like to get everything cut before anything is spotted. Sometimes I'll have 3 guys cutting at the same time. We can precut a 3400 footer in a day, and stack it in another day. I don't precut the valley jacks, instead once we spot all the ridges and hips and valleys, we'll measure the first one in and while the guys fill in the hips and commons, I'll cut the valley jacks. I know it's nit picking, but in one of those pictures it showed the studs, joists, and rafters with different layouts. I always start with the king commons on the hips, and lay out from there. When everything lines up it really simplifies things. Of course, back in the days of those pics, you were so far ahead of the curve it really didn't matter. Thanks for sharing.John
Huck,
I just got in and saw this thread. Thanks for posting it. I'm really glad you did.
Where I'm at, we end up using mostly ridge beams to keep the ceilings open. I like using the rafters to set the ridge though, that is much slicker. There is nothing worse than setting the ridge and its too high :-).
I am running a 3 man crew right now, 1 of whom wants to go to school, so we have to find another guy, but last spring we had a bigger one (pics herehttp://http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=15410460&uid=2163851 ) and that was the job where I showed the guys how to cut jacks and that kind of thing.
We spent a day just cutting the roof. It was an irregular roof and it worked out really well. A couple of the king hip to valley jacks didn't come out right, but overall pretty decent.
Normally I cut sections at a time and then put them together. But now that the crew is smaller, its time to just precut everything. Thanks for posting this thread. I love those pictures. That is our framing heritage :-)
Very nice series of pictures.
How long did it take you to cut the roof?
Matt
A week, working by myself. I remember because on this job I got paid piecework for cutting the roof, so I'd snap lines and layout the job getting paid hourly, then shift over to cutting as a bid price. At that time, in the depressed economy typical of this Central Valley, my piecework price was good money for a week's work.
So good, in fact, that shortly after this was taken, the guy I was working for told me I was making too much money (he's the one who came up with that price), so he was going to pay me hourly for my roof-cutting time also. And I walked.
Later, when he realized he was making more money with me than without, he pleaded with me to come back, and offered me my old pay. By then I had moved on to commercial t.i. work.
Its a long story, but this guy was my friend. He was also my lead framer when I ran a framing crew. But I had a business partner, and when it didn't work out and I split with my business partner, I told the crew it was over, I was moving on to other things. My lead man wanted to keep the crew together (it was a good crew), and try his hand at contracting. So I said fine, I'll stay on and work for hourly pay, if I can get paid piecework for cutting the roof. For me it was a nice break from the headaches of running the business.
We did a few houses, and everything was cool, until his wife got involved in his book keeping. She told him he was paying me too much, and so that was that. So the crew I'm working with here was my crew, but I'm pretty sure by the time of these pics the guy in the black sweat pants and white shirt (he only shows up in a few of the pics) is the new boss, and I'm the piecework roof-cutter. He's now a building inspector in town, and we're on good terms when we run into each other.
So these pictures were the last day of a week of roof-cutting: I'd supervise the stacking as part of my piecework bid, and then shift back to hourly for sheathing, pickup framing, plan-ons, ceiling coffers, arches, etc.
“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck, as I was looking at your pictures..I was thinking I wish this was a slideshow
And then you provided one. This is good stuff
Talk about getting your ducks in a row!
John B
I remember those days that was fun stuff.
Great series Huck... just awesome.
LOL.... hey.... how come the guy who thinks you're making too much money also always seems to be the only guy on site NOT WEARING A TOOLBELT!!! LOL.... I guess some things never change.
I pre-cut as much as possible whenever possible too. I never seem to be able to get far enough ahead of my crew to do a whole roof though. So they're usually grabbing piles off the ground and installing while I'm on the ground cutting like a madman.... sweating, covered in sawdust, crunching numbers, and spending a lot of time talking to myself. So yeah.... I can sympathize with you. I usually manage to get just enough of a headstart with the cutting that I stay just ahead of the crew... but I work my butt off to stay there.View Image
Great Post!!!
Very Nice work there.
Looked like the crew was having fun , and making it seem effortless .
My only question is where is the rain, mud, sleet, OSHA etc.,etc.
;-)
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca