I’ve got two different scenarios going on in two separate rooms where we intend to lay Armstrong commercial tile.
In one room, all the mastic has been removed down to the ply underlayment. The seams, nail holes, etc. look like they were filled with Fixall or something similar. Some of it came up when using the heat gun to get up the mastic, but most of it stayed put. Can I leave it? What do I need to put over it to fill in the holes, etc. before applying mastic?
The other room had old linoleum sheet vinyl on it which is now gone, leaving us with a water soluble black adhesive to remove. Once that’s gone, what do I need to put on the ply (if anything) before laying the mastic for the tile?
I’ve noticed that H.D. carries a ready-mix cement-like product (is that the same as thinset?). Any relevance to my situation?
Replies
If the floor is sound and smooth so that no nails or seams will telegraph through the new tile, I think that you're good to go. Gouges and imperfections should be filled with a floor patch.
For the other room, you might be able to find the same black mastic thats already on the floor. Its been a number of years since I last purchased the black mastic. When I last did, it was at a tile floor store. It may have been discontinued because it had asbestos in it. I don't know. Even the new water based mastics may be compatable with the black stuff. Check with the manufacturer.
Even minor imperfections in the floor eventually will telegraph through the new commercial tile to one degree or another. So, if the prep for the existing floor is too much, consider putting down new, smooth 1/4" AC plywood. In 90% of the jobs like you have described, its better to put down new plywood. Its safer (no worry about asbestos) and gives better results (nothing telegraphing through). But, I have put commercial tile over what you described with good results.
Rick
Thanks for posting, Rick.So, can you tell me a little bit more about the floor patch? The H.D. near here suggests a pre-mixed product that is more like a thin cement! Is thisa what people refer to as thinset? This stuff does not work particularly well for minor imperfections (it's too grainy to smooth out). Is there something out there like a spackle that you can smooth out with a broad knife?The problem with the other room is the paper on the back of the sheet linoleum did not come up with it. So, I've essentially got what looks like a paper floor with the adhesive underneath.I think the floor patch might be sufficient, but will consider 1/4" ply if it looks like it will be easier in the long run.
Check out this, it will work much better than plywood for a tile surface. It's a little more than $1/sq ft, depending on the size of the roll you buy. Its the same company that makes the kerdi system that you see here a lot. They carry the Ditra at HD but the price is high compared to a tile supplier. It will be much easier to put down than the plywood too.http://www.johnbridge.com/ceramic_tile_floors_ditra.htmhttp://www.schluter.com/6_1_ditra.aspxhttp://www.tileprotection.com/home.php?cat=4
Interesting stuff! It seems, though, that this is used more for stone and ceramic, not VCT?
Thinset is too coarse.Floor patch is uses an ultra-fine silica. Hennry has some, as does Amrstrong (which I think is repackaged Henry, but not sure). And it is available at HD and Lowes.Some of it is cement based, but it use a quick setting forumla. I forgot the time, but it is something like 5-10 minutes.Some of it is white and I don't know that is plaster based or a white cement. But it is also fast setting.And they can be tapered to a feather edge.I have used a premixed latex based product (DAP?), but the filler is too course. It makes it hard to spread and it takes a while to dry..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill,Thanks for the input and eliminating the DAP, which Lowe's carries. I thought that might be a possibility. The HD near my house carries a pre-mixed thinset and nothing else. Odd that HD doesn't carry the ulta-fine silica, since they carry Armstrong's CVT. I guess I need to keep looking.
Are you sure.They have the stuff is different sections.In Lowes the DAP is up in the paint department.Back in the flooring department there are several sections.One of which is for ceramic tile and there they have the thinsets, grouts, cleaners, etc. BTW there is no such thing as ready mix thinset. It is just a marketing term for mastic. True thinset is a cementous product and cures by hydration.A row to two over they have the vinyl flooring stuff. The adhesive, the template kits, the seam sealer. The floor patch is in that section.HD is similar, but I try to avoid them so I don't have the full details.The local Lowes (zip 64055) has this Henry Product.http://www.wwhenry.com/prod-547.htmhttp://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=152381-41173-FP0547094073And HD has Henry's 549 Floor Patch.http://contractorservices.homedepot.com/StoreProducts/ProductInfo.aspx?cid=1023158&pid=0ac5cbeb-b903-473f-bed4-db55b66ee2a9The also have a Jasco product that might work, but you would need to read all of the specs." Jasco
No. 2708, 3 Lbs. 5 Oz. Floor Patch and Level
Model 2708
SKU 396092
Repairs concrete, brick, exposed aggregate, masonry, and wood. Can be troweled and feathered onto a smooth surface and used as a mortar or grout replacement for small jobs. Levels and fills cracks, seams, holes and joints in wood and concrete underlayment before tiling. Easy to spread, fast-setting and water-resistant patching for bird baths, fountains and basement walls. Dries hard and ready for flooring, tile or traffic in 4 - 8 hours.
* Premixed and ready to use, saves time
* Use Interior or Exterior
* Fast Setting
* Paint or Stain Over It
* Mildew Resistant
* Non-shrinking".
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks, Bill, for going the extra mile. Very much appreciated.
Since Rick hasn't replied, I'll take a stab at it until he comes back. What I think you need is the self-leveling floor patch that you mix up and spread (normally you sort of pour it and maybe trowel or sqeegee it around and then it flows and levels itself). Durham's Rock Hard water putty may work for small holes and imperfections.
Thinset usually comes dry in bags and you mix it with water--like the way you mix up mortar. It is used to adhere tile (ceramic tile, not composite) to floors and some folks use it between the subfloor and tile backer board. I think floor patch is less grainy and that's what you should use for getiinbg the floor smooth and flat.
What you are ultimately putting down is like 9" composite tile right? Not ceramic? I don't think you want anything to do with thinset with composite tile. The composite is put down after first spreding mastic with a notched trowel and letting it set for a while so it is not wet but still a little tacky.
You ask a good question about what type of floor patch. Like you say, you want something that you can trowel a feather edge. Off the top of my head, I don't have a specific product for you. But I know they are out there. (Maybe exterior spackle?) I'm working on a bathroom floor now and I might even try Bondo.
The thing about 12" VCTs is that water can get through the gaps and get to the floor patch (and plywood) that you used. One thing I've done right after I lay the tiles is to apply a couple coats of an Armstrong Floor Finishing liquid (acrylic?) that would seep through the joints, dry and give me more protection.
Check out this site: http://www.armstrong.com/commflooringna/article21371.html
Rick
Hey Rick,I see rthat Danno (see above) rcommended Durham's Rock Hard water putty? What do you think? Haven't seen this suggested anywhere. Wonder if this stuff is similar to Fixall? I'd be disinclined to use Fixall on the floor because it tends to crack, etc. with the slightest movement. Have you ever used DAP's Floor Patch and Leveller, Ardex Feather Finish, or anything by Mapei?My experience with Bondo (as a paint contractor) is that it, too, is incapable of staying intact with movement of any kind. I don't tend to use it anymore on exterior surfaces. I'll look into Armstrong's Floor Finishing as you suggest. Spackle is vulnerable to water until it gets primed. I just wonder how it would react to the adhesive (which has water in it) until it dries?
If you want to be safe and this is a significant investment, use some sort of underlayment. We only use good quality materials usually only available from a flooring distributer. The junk from most of the big stores is full of voids that can potentially show up when something heavy is rolled over it. If you think the floor is pretty sound, go for it. Old patch is pretty brittle, so make sure nothing will come loose and then skim coat the floor with with patch. The best performance will come from brushing or rolling an acrylic additive on first and then mixing the patch with the proper proportions of the same additive and then skim coat the floor. Prep makes or breaks the job.
gent00,The ply on there now seems to be pretty sound, so I don't think I need to lay down more ply.What do you use for floor patch? Are you suggesting that I cover the entire floor?You'ver introduced a new element into the discussion: acrylic additive. Is this a flooring material? Can you give me some brand names? This goes UNDERNEATH the floor patch, yes? You got me with the suggestion that I mix the acrylic additive with the floor patch (instead of water?). That's a new one. Can you clarify the progression of materials here (i.e., acrylic additive first, then acrylic additive mixed with floor patch, etc.)? I don't want to screw it up.As a paint contractor, I agree totally with you about prep.
The plywood has to be sound and also any previous patching should still be in good order.
Mixing the acrylic with the patch makes for a stronger patch. It also can speed up drying time.
Putting acrylic on the floor first is like priming wood or wallboard. It will help prevent the patch from pulling away from the floor.
Floor patch can be used for filling in low spots or making smoother transitions over high spots such as plywood seams, but it can also be used to conceal old cutback adhesive residue that would be impossible to remove.
In this instance, you would skim coat the entire floor. I don't have any brand loyalties with regards to floor patch. Any of the usual suspects will do. If you are going over cutback adhesive, Armstrong S-194 works well but many others make that claim.
gent00,That's quite helpful. Thanks.
A couple of cautions about water putty: it will absorb moisture and it expands slightly as it dries causing it to "pop" from a smooth concave surface.
See http://www.waterputty.com/view.htm#caution
Rick
Rick,Thanks for the warning. Yeah, reading through the precautions convinced me that this is NOT the product to use on a floor. Reminds me of Fixall, which would also be better left off the floor.