FHB Logo Facebook LinkedIn Email Pinterest Twitter X Instagram Tiktok YouTube Plus Icon Close Icon Navigation Search Icon Navigation Search Icon Arrow Down Icon Video Guide Icon Article Guide Icon Modal Close Icon Guide Search Icon Skip to content
Subscribe
Log In
  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Restoration
  • Videos
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House
  • Podcast
Log In

Discussion Forum

Discussion Forum

Prep on ply underlayment before tiling?

redoak | Posted in General Discussion on June 18, 2007 01:28am

I’ve got two different scenarios going on in two separate rooms where we intend to lay Armstrong commercial tile.

In one room, all the mastic has been removed down to the ply underlayment. The seams, nail holes, etc. look like they were filled with Fixall or something similar. Some of it came up when using the heat gun to get up the mastic, but most of it stayed put. Can I leave it? What do I need to put over it to fill in the holes, etc. before applying mastic?

The other room had old linoleum sheet vinyl on it which is now gone, leaving us with a water soluble black adhesive to remove. Once that’s gone, what do I need to put on the ply (if anything) before laying the mastic for the tile?

I’ve noticed that H.D. carries a ready-mix cement-like product (is that the same as thinset?). Any relevance to my situation?

Reply
  • X
  • facebook
  • linkedin
  • pinterest
  • email
  • add to favorites Log in or Sign up to save your favorite articles

Replies

  1. rick12 | Jun 18, 2007 02:04am | #1

    If the floor is sound and smooth so that no nails or seams will telegraph through the new tile, I think that you're good to go. Gouges and imperfections should be filled with a floor patch.

    For the other room, you might be able to find the same black mastic thats already on the floor. Its been a number of years since I last purchased the black mastic. When I last did, it was at a tile floor store. It may have been discontinued because it had asbestos in it. I don't know. Even the new water based mastics may be compatable with the black stuff. Check with the manufacturer.

    Even minor imperfections in the floor eventually will telegraph through the new commercial tile to one degree or another. So, if the prep for the existing floor is too much, consider putting down new, smooth 1/4" AC plywood. In 90% of the jobs like you have described, its better to put down new plywood. Its safer (no worry about asbestos) and gives better results (nothing telegraphing through). But, I have put commercial tile over what you described with good results.

    Rick

    1. User avater
      redoak | Jun 18, 2007 03:02am | #2

      Thanks for posting, Rick.So, can you tell me a little bit more about the floor patch? The H.D. near here suggests a pre-mixed product that is more like a thin cement! Is thisa what people refer to as thinset? This stuff does not work particularly well for minor imperfections (it's too grainy to smooth out). Is there something out there like a spackle that you can smooth out with a broad knife?The problem with the other room is the paper on the back of the sheet linoleum did not come up with it. So, I've essentially got what looks like a paper floor with the adhesive underneath.I think the floor patch might be sufficient, but will consider 1/4" ply if it looks like it will be easier in the long run.

      1. User avater
        DDay | Jun 18, 2007 03:39am | #3

        Check out this, it will work much better than plywood for a tile surface. It's a little more than $1/sq ft, depending on the size of the roll you buy. Its the same company that makes the kerdi system that you see here a lot. They carry the Ditra at HD but the price is high compared to a tile supplier. It will be much easier to put down than the plywood too.http://www.johnbridge.com/ceramic_tile_floors_ditra.htmhttp://www.schluter.com/6_1_ditra.aspxhttp://www.tileprotection.com/home.php?cat=4

        1. User avater
          redoak | Jun 18, 2007 04:59pm | #7

          Interesting stuff! It seems, though, that this is used more for stone and ceramic, not VCT?

          1. User avater
            BillHartmann | Jun 18, 2007 05:54pm | #8

            Thinset is too coarse.Floor patch is uses an ultra-fine silica. Hennry has some, as does Amrstrong (which I think is repackaged Henry, but not sure). And it is available at HD and Lowes.Some of it is cement based, but it use a quick setting forumla. I forgot the time, but it is something like 5-10 minutes.Some of it is white and I don't know that is plaster based or a white cement. But it is also fast setting.And they can be tapered to a feather edge.I have used a premixed latex based product (DAP?), but the filler is too course. It makes it hard to spread and it takes a while to dry..
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          2. User avater
            redoak | Jun 19, 2007 04:28am | #10

            Bill,Thanks for the input and eliminating the DAP, which Lowe's carries. I thought that might be a possibility. The HD near my house carries a pre-mixed thinset and nothing else. Odd that HD doesn't carry the ulta-fine silica, since they carry Armstrong's CVT. I guess I need to keep looking.

          3. User avater
            BillHartmann | Jun 19, 2007 04:59am | #12

            Are you sure.They have the stuff is different sections.In Lowes the DAP is up in the paint department.Back in the flooring department there are several sections.One of which is for ceramic tile and there they have the thinsets, grouts, cleaners, etc. BTW there is no such thing as ready mix thinset. It is just a marketing term for mastic. True thinset is a cementous product and cures by hydration.A row to two over they have the vinyl flooring stuff. The adhesive, the template kits, the seam sealer. The floor patch is in that section.HD is similar, but I try to avoid them so I don't have the full details.The local Lowes (zip 64055) has this Henry Product.http://www.wwhenry.com/prod-547.htmhttp://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=152381-41173-FP0547094073And HD has Henry's 549 Floor Patch.http://contractorservices.homedepot.com/StoreProducts/ProductInfo.aspx?cid=1023158&pid=0ac5cbeb-b903-473f-bed4-db55b66ee2a9The also have a Jasco product that might work, but you would need to read all of the specs." Jasco
            No. 2708, 3 Lbs. 5 Oz. Floor Patch and Level

            Model 2708
            SKU 396092

            Repairs concrete, brick, exposed aggregate, masonry, and wood. Can be troweled and feathered onto a smooth surface and used as a mortar or grout replacement for small jobs. Levels and fills cracks, seams, holes and joints in wood and concrete underlayment before tiling. Easy to spread, fast-setting and water-resistant patching for bird baths, fountains and basement walls. Dries hard and ready for flooring, tile or traffic in 4 - 8 hours.
            * Premixed and ready to use, saves time
            * Use Interior or Exterior
            * Fast Setting
            * Paint or Stain Over It
            * Mildew Resistant
            * Non-shrinking".
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          4. User avater
            redoak | Jun 19, 2007 05:03am | #13

            Thanks, Bill, for going the extra mile. Very much appreciated.

      2. Danno | Jun 18, 2007 03:48am | #4

        Since Rick hasn't replied, I'll take a stab at it until he comes back. What I think you need is the self-leveling floor patch that you mix up and spread (normally you sort of pour it and maybe trowel or sqeegee it around and then it flows and levels itself).  Durham's Rock Hard water putty may work for small holes and imperfections.

        Thinset usually comes dry in bags and you mix it with water--like the way you mix up mortar. It is used to adhere tile (ceramic tile, not composite) to floors and some folks use it between the subfloor and tile backer board. I think floor patch is less grainy and that's what you should use for getiinbg the floor smooth and flat.

        What you are ultimately putting down is like 9" composite tile right? Not ceramic? I don't think you want anything to do with thinset with composite tile. The composite is put down after first spreding mastic with a notched trowel and letting it set for a while so it is not wet but still a little tacky.

      3. rick12 | Jun 18, 2007 03:43pm | #5

        You ask a good question about what type of floor patch. Like you say, you want something that you can trowel a feather edge. Off the top of my head, I don't have a specific product for you. But I know they are out there. (Maybe exterior spackle?) I'm working on a bathroom floor now and I might even try Bondo.

        The thing about 12" VCTs is that water can get through the gaps and get to the floor patch (and plywood) that you used. One thing I've done right after I lay the tiles is to apply a couple coats of an Armstrong Floor Finishing liquid (acrylic?) that would seep through the joints, dry and give me more protection.

        Check out this site: http://www.armstrong.com/commflooringna/article21371.html 

        Rick

         

        1. User avater
          redoak | Jun 18, 2007 04:58pm | #6

          Hey Rick,I see rthat Danno (see above) rcommended Durham's Rock Hard water putty? What do you think? Haven't seen this suggested anywhere. Wonder if this stuff is similar to Fixall? I'd be disinclined to use Fixall on the floor because it tends to crack, etc. with the slightest movement. Have you ever used DAP's Floor Patch and Leveller, Ardex Feather Finish, or anything by Mapei?My experience with Bondo (as a paint contractor) is that it, too, is incapable of staying intact with movement of any kind. I don't tend to use it anymore on exterior surfaces. I'll look into Armstrong's Floor Finishing as you suggest. Spackle is vulnerable to water until it gets primed. I just wonder how it would react to the adhesive (which has water in it) until it dries?

  2. User avater
    gent00 | Jun 19, 2007 03:29am | #9

    If you want to be safe and this is a significant investment, use some sort of underlayment. We only use good quality materials usually only available from a flooring distributer. The junk from most of the big stores is full of voids that can potentially show up when something heavy is rolled over it. If you think the floor is pretty sound, go for it. Old patch is pretty brittle, so make sure nothing will come loose and then skim coat the floor with with patch. The best performance will come from brushing or rolling an acrylic additive on first and then mixing the patch with the proper proportions of the same additive and then skim coat the floor. Prep makes or breaks the job.

    1. User avater
      redoak | Jun 19, 2007 04:39am | #11

      gent00,The ply on there now seems to be pretty sound, so I don't think I need to lay down more ply.What do you use for floor patch? Are you suggesting that I cover the entire floor?You'ver introduced a new element into the discussion: acrylic additive. Is this a flooring material? Can you give me some brand names? This goes UNDERNEATH the floor patch, yes? You got me with the suggestion that I mix the acrylic additive with the floor patch (instead of water?). That's a new one. Can you clarify the progression of materials here (i.e., acrylic additive first, then acrylic additive mixed with floor patch, etc.)? I don't want to screw it up.As a paint contractor, I agree totally with you about prep.

      1. User avater
        gent00 | Jun 19, 2007 05:38am | #14

        The plywood has to be sound and also any previous patching should still be in good order.
        Mixing the acrylic with the patch makes for a stronger patch. It also can speed up drying time.
        Putting acrylic on the floor first is like priming wood or wallboard. It will help prevent the patch from pulling away from the floor.
        Floor patch can be used for filling in low spots or making smoother transitions over high spots such as plywood seams, but it can also be used to conceal old cutback adhesive residue that would be impossible to remove.
        In this instance, you would skim coat the entire floor. I don't have any brand loyalties with regards to floor patch. Any of the usual suspects will do. If you are going over cutback adhesive, Armstrong S-194 works well but many others make that claim.

        1. User avater
          redoak | Jun 19, 2007 06:47am | #15

          gent00,That's quite helpful. Thanks.

  3. rick12 | Jun 19, 2007 04:10pm | #16

    A couple of cautions about water putty: it will absorb moisture and it expands slightly as it dries causing it to "pop" from a smooth concave surface.

    See http://www.waterputty.com/view.htm#caution  

    Rick

    1. User avater
      redoak | Jun 19, 2007 04:39pm | #17

      Rick,Thanks for the warning. Yeah, reading through the precautions convinced me that this is NOT the product to use on a floor. Reminds me of Fixall, which would also be better left off the floor.

Log in or create an account to post a comment.

Sign up Log in

Become a member and get full access to FineHomebuilding.com

Video Shorts

Categories

  • Business
  • Code Questions
  • Construction Techniques
  • Energy, Heating & Insulation
  • General Discussion
  • Help/Work Wanted
  • Photo Gallery
  • Reader Classified
  • Tools for Home Building

Discussion Forum

Recent Posts and Replies

  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
View More Create Post

Up Next

Video Shorts

Featured Story

A New Approach to Foundations

Discover a concrete-free foundation option that doesn't require any digging.

Featured Video

Video: Build a Fireplace, Brick by Brick

Watch mason Mike Mehaffey construct a traditional-style fireplace that burns well and meets current building codes.

Related Stories

  • Old House Air-Sealing Basics
  • A Drip-Free, Through-Window Heat Pump
  • Insulation for Homes in the Wildland Urban Interface
  • An Impressive Air-to-Water Heat Pump

Highlights

Fine Homebuilding All Access
Fine Homebuilding Podcast
Tool Tech
Plus, get an extra 20% off with code GIFT20

"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Fine Homebuilding Magazine

  • Issue 332 - July 2025
    • Custom Built-ins With Job-Site Tools
    • Fight House Fires Through Design
    • Making the Move to Multifamily
  • Issue 331 - June 2025
    • A More Resilient Roof
    • Tool Test: You Need a Drywall Sander
    • Ducted vs. Ductless Heat Pumps
  • Issue 330 - April/May 2025
    • Deck Details for Durability
    • FAQs on HPWHs
    • 10 Tips for a Long-Lasting Paint Job
  • Old House Journal – August 2025
    • Designing the Perfect Garden Gate
    • Old House Air-Sealing Basics
  • Issue 329 - Feb/Mar 2025
    • Smart Foundation for a Small Addition
    • A Kominka Comes West
    • Making Small Kitchens Work

Fine Home Building

Newsletter Sign-up

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox.

  • Green Building Advisor

    Building science and energy efficiency advice, plus special offers, in your inbox.

  • Old House Journal

    Repair, renovation, and restoration tips, plus special offers, in your inbox.

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters

Follow

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X

Membership & Magazine

  • Online Archive
  • Start Free Trial
  • Magazine Subscription
  • Magazine Renewal
  • Gift a Subscription
  • Customer Support
  • Privacy Preferences
  • About
  • Contact
  • Advertise
  • Careers
  • Terms of Use
  • Site Map
  • Do not sell or share my information
  • Privacy Policy
  • Accessibility
  • California Privacy Rights

© 2025 Active Interest Media. All rights reserved.

Fine Homebuilding receives a commission for items purchased through links on this site, including Amazon Associates and other affiliate advertising programs.

  • Home Group
  • Antique Trader
  • Arts & Crafts Homes
  • Bank Note Reporter
  • Cabin Life
  • Cuisine at Home
  • Fine Gardening
  • Fine Woodworking
  • Green Building Advisor
  • Garden Gate
  • Horticulture
  • Keep Craft Alive
  • Log Home Living
  • Military Trader/Vehicles
  • Numismatic News
  • Numismaster
  • Old Cars Weekly
  • Old House Journal
  • Period Homes
  • Popular Woodworking
  • Script
  • ShopNotes
  • Sports Collectors Digest
  • Threads
  • Timber Home Living
  • Traditional Building
  • Woodsmith
  • World Coin News
  • Writer's Digest
Active Interest Media logo
X
X
This is a dialog window which overlays the main content of the page. The modal window is a 'site map' of the most critical areas of the site. Pressing the Escape (ESC) button will close the modal and bring you back to where you were on the page.

Main Menu

  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Video
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Popular Topics

  • Kitchens
  • Business
  • Bedrooms
  • Roofs
  • Architecture and Design
  • Green Building
  • Decks
  • Framing
  • Safety
  • Remodeling
  • Bathrooms
  • Windows
  • Tilework
  • Ceilings
  • HVAC

Magazine

  • Current Issue
  • Past Issues
  • Magazine Index
  • Subscribe
  • Online Archive
  • Author Guidelines

All Access

  • Member Home
  • Start Free Trial
  • Gift Membership

Online Learning

  • Courses
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Podcast

More

  • FHB Ambassadors
  • FHB House
  • Customer Support

Account

  • Log In
  • Join

Newsletter

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Follow

  • X
  • YouTube
  • instagram
  • facebook
  • pinterest
  • Tiktok

Join All Access

Become a member and get instant access to thousands of videos, how-tos, tool reviews, and design features.

Start Your Free Trial

Subscribe

FHB Magazine

Start your subscription today and save up to 70%

Subscribe

Enjoy unlimited access to Fine Homebuilding. Join Now

Already a member? Log in

We hope you’ve enjoyed your free articles. To keep reading, become a member today.

Get complete site access to expert advice, how-to videos, Code Check, and more, plus the print magazine.

Start your FREE trial

Already a member? Log in

Privacy Policy Update

We use cookies, pixels, script and other tracking technologies to analyze and improve our service, to improve and personalize content, and for advertising to you. We also share information about your use of our site with third-party social media, advertising and analytics partners. You can view our Privacy Policy here and our Terms of Use here.

Cookies

Analytics

These cookies help us track site metrics to improve our sites and provide a better user experience.

Advertising/Social Media

These cookies are used to serve advertisements aligned with your interests.

Essential

These cookies are required to provide basic functions like page navigation and access to secure areas of the website.

Delete My Data

Delete all cookies and associated data