Replies

1. 
   geob21 | Jul 08, 2003 09:57pm | #1

   I have a question knowing nothing about this type of application but why do you need a pressure tank at all?

   Need water turn pump on when you have enough water turn pump off.

   ________________________________________________________________

   If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
1. 
   BossHog | Jul 08, 2003 10:19pm | #2

   The pump kicks on when the pressure is low and fills the tank. That way you have pressure when you open a faucet, flush a toilet, or whatever.

   When the pressure in the tank drops off, a switch kicks the pump back on. The switch kicks it off again when the pressure hits a pre-set point. I'd rather laugh with the sinners, but I wanna do business with the saints. They seem like they'd be easy to screw over. [John Dobbin]

1. 
   geob21 | Jul 08, 2003 10:33pm | #4

   Boss I know how a pressure tank works, I don't understand the need in a pasture. I'm assuming it's to fill water troughs  since you don't see many low boys or bidets in a field ;-)

   ____________________________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?

1. 
   BossHog | Jul 08, 2003 10:47pm | #6

   First - The guy just said the wells are in a pasture. He never said what the wells are used for.

   But assuming they're for watering livestock, you still need a pressure tank and switch. The watering tanks probably have a fill valve that turns the water on and off based on the water level in the tank. That way no one has to babysit the pump, and turn 'em on and off.

   If you're thinking that a water lever switch could turn the water pump on and off instead of using a pressure switch and pump, you may be right. But I've never seen anything like that.

   But it would also depend on the depth of the well and the capacity of the pump. If the pump kicks out more volume than the pipes can handle, it might damage the pump. The pressure tank wouldn't be there to act as a buffer. If it wasn't for plumbers, you'd have no place to go.

1. 
   geob21 | Jul 08, 2003 10:53pm | #7

   I agree the pressure tank may be necessary I don't know this application. I was just wondering if there may be an easier way. Sometime people keep doing things the same way because that's always been the way it's done, missing the obvious.

   I have a degree in not thinking like anyone else. Sometimes people think I'm a genius, but most times I get that WTF are you talking about look.

   _______________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?

2. 
   IMERC | Jul 08, 2003 11:16pm | #9

   If you're thinking that a water lever switch could turn the water pump on and off instead of using a pressure switch and pump, you may be right. But I've never seen anything like that.

   You'll never believe where it's done that way. Smaller hp pumps with a low water delivery rate and a float switch.

   Smaller pumps and simlified plumbing cost less.

   Think in terms of a sump pump pumping out your basement. Sump pumps haven't got a pressure tank and they move water until the float valve says stop.

   BTW the float valve is on the stock tank and not in the well.

   Edited 7/8/2003 4:19:23 PM ET by IMERC

3. 
   BillHartmann | Jul 08, 2003 11:37pm | #10

   And large water distribution system.

   The most common water distribution system are controlled by monitoring the level of water in an elevated tank and using that to turn the pump on and off.

   But there are some systems in the far north where they don't use tanks and instead monitor the pressure and flow and use that to control veriable speed pumps. They system curves are figured in so that they maintain pressure at the far end of the system at different flow rates.

   In the last year or so there is a vairable speed deep well pump. But I still think that they need a small pressure tank to activate the pump.

4. 
   IMERC | Jul 08, 2003 11:55pm | #11

   2 and some times a 3 stage switch arrangement but still a direct water system.

5. 
   JamieFichter | Jul 09, 2003 12:20am | #12

   Maybe I'm stating the obvious here, but one thing that the pressure tank accomplishes in any application is to keep the well pump from cycling as often as when the pressure tank is not present.  This prolongs the life of the well pump (and if you've ever drug one of those babies out to replace it, you'll know that you want to prolong it's useful life! )

   Jamie

6. 
   migraine | Jul 09, 2003 05:05am | #13

   I had to read 13 previous posts to get to yours.  I thought I had the answer, but noooooo, you answered first  :)

7. 
   JamieFichter | Jul 09, 2003 04:01pm | #16

   Yeah...if I have an answer I put in my $0.02 quickly, because in most cases I am just plain LOST!   Makes me feel useful once in a while...   :~P

   Jamie

8. 
   joeh | Jul 09, 2003 08:03am | #14

   I have a Grundfos pump that has no tank, just open a tap and it senses the pressure drop and pumps. It's down about 260' I think in a 360' hole.

   It has been in the well about 2 years, no problems yet.. I bought a 5 year warranty too, hope I don't need it.

   I could see this hooked to a float in a tank just like a toilet tank, same thing just more water?

   Joe H

9. 
   andyb | Jul 09, 2003 03:59pm | #15

   I should have been more specific; the well would be used only to fill tanks.  Wintertime is the biggest concern.  I thought about just using a switch to cut the pump on and off as needed but this would turn into a bif pain in the ####.  Maybe some type of float valve in a heated tank.

10. 
    IMERC | Jul 09, 2003 04:42pm | #17

    Auto switch will do it, you can even set it up for high low limits. Now how you heating the tanks?

11. 
    migraine | Jul 09, 2003 07:59pm | #18

    Go to graingers or McMaster-Carr  they sell strip heaters for tanks/barrels.  Why not call your local well guy.  He's probably the one to talk to.  Leave in the hands of the experienced, and do what you do best.  Maybe ask about a barter with him.

12. 
    IMERC | Jul 09, 2003 08:19pm | #19

    I don't believe you said that. Enlighten me.

    This is adbreezes' thread.

    Now lets' get into solar powered stock watering. Shall we?

    This is stock we're talking about. Not at home taking a shower.

    Edited 7/9/2003 1:23:27 PM ET by IMERC

13. 
    migraine | Jul 10, 2003 08:17pm | #22

    I'm sorry...I sent the message/reply to the wrong person...oops!!

14. 
    edwardh1 | Jul 10, 2003 02:25am | #21

    everyone in my area says to use the tank.

    The Myers pump book however says to remove the tank when used for irrigation.

    One function of a pressure tank is to keep pressure on AN ABOVE GROUND SHALLOW WELL CHECK VALVE to keep the pump from losing its prime.

15. 
    Rav | Jul 10, 2003 09:42pm | #23

    I dont know if this is the correct answer to the situation at hand, but, Think cottages in northern Canada! We do use pressure tanks to maintain adequate pressure, and volume for showers and stuff. In the winter we rely on heat line; an elecrically heated water line delivers water throught the cold winter months.

    If you want to eliminate the pressure tank, and use a deep well as a reservoir, with a level switch, maybe the installation of a heat line down the well would work. Its my feeling that the pump (with out a pressure tank) would cycle on and off so much though, that it would burn it out! Even if there is adequate volume of water storeage there.

    Just as a side line... when I replaced my jet pump to a submersible in the lake (and added the heat line), I gave the old pump to a freind of mine who has a log cabin in the woods powered by solar electric. After we installed the pump he promptly removed the pressure tank, and ran a line up to a bathtub resevoir located on the roof of the structure. He wouyld cycle this on and off as the tub reservoir required it. Nuts eh!

    Robert

16. 
    IMERC | Jul 10, 2003 10:14pm | #25

    The supply line from the pump is below frost level. The line comes into the stock tank from the bottom. The tank is filled from the bottom and not poured in from the top. accumilated ice is pushed up and out of the tank. An in line check valve is resident. You don't want the tank to siphon out or the pump to lose it's prime. You could use a self priming pump though.

    The cycle rate is minimal. The tanks can be 3 or 4k in size or as small as 2 or 300 hundred. Some of these configurations are solar. Pumps and heaters. Heaters are heat exchangers and not strips. This beats trailering in water. Some times electric can be miles away.

    How often does the basement sump cycle and how long does it last. WTB years. The sump doesn't have a pressure tank and it moves water just fine and it some times has to have considerable lift. The float switch is more likely to fail than the pump.

    We are after water to fill a reservior, no more no less.

17. 
    BillHartmann | Jul 10, 2003 10:31pm | #26

    You don't need a pressure tank for this.

    Where you need a pressure tank is where you have a closed system and a number of different points of use.

    A pressure tank is need on a CLOSED system as water is not compressible and thus if you draw off one drop of water the pressure drops and the pump comes on then the pressure go to the max that the pump will generate and the pump will cut off.

    BTW, an elevated tank is a form of pressure tank.

    A float switch or a pressure switch at the bottom of the tank is all that you need.

18. 
    IMERC | Jul 10, 2003 10:38pm | #27

    Yes ... That is what I said.

19. 
    IMERC | Jul 11, 2003 08:36am | #28

    After we installed the pump he promptly removed the pressure tank, and ran a line up to a bathtub resevoir located on the roof of the structure. He wouyld cycle this on and off as the tub reservoir required it. Nuts eh!

    Cistern arangement with a float switch, more than likely. Gravity supply from the cistern probably delivers more water than the pump can. With the tub being outside the water can be solar heated. Plan "B" for the winter though.

    Water on demand without a pressure tank. Hmmmmmm.

20. 
    clampman2 | Jul 11, 2003 07:23pm | #30

    Adabreese,

    I assume this is the situation. You want to fill tank/tanks summer and winter automatically. You don't want the water lines to freeze.

    You can use a submersible pump and eliminate the foot valve in the well. Fill the tanks from the top with a main discharge line and automatic valve (same as a foot valve but on the other end of the line). Downstream from this valve a convenient location T off with a smaller line equipped with a gate or ball valve, and continue this line into the top of the tank above the high water level. (This level is determined by your float switch in the tank). In the summertime, close your gate or ball valve to this smaller line. Water will then remain in the line from tank to well.

    In the wintertime, you can open this valve all the way, and it will provide venting to allow the water in the line from well to tank to drain back into the well very quickly where it won't freeze. Or you can just crack it open slightly, and the water will slowly seep back into the well.

    This system is a variation of one I put into a pumped septic system in Maine in 1970 because I couldn't bury the discharge line from tank to D box without a huge investment in dynamite.

    Good luck,

    Clampman

2. 
   IMERC | Jul 08, 2003 10:28pm | #3

   My turn to ask.... Why would you need a pressure tank in a pasture inviroment? Go to water on demand with a water level switch.

1. 
   BossHog | Jul 08, 2003 10:36pm | #5

   The systems are based on how much water you NEED, not how much water is in the well.

   You don't use twice as much water to shower with when your city water tower is full, do you? Or take a shorter shower when the water tower isn't as full?

   Even if this is just for watering cows you only need what the cows are gonna drink. If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

1. 
   IMERC | Jul 08, 2003 10:59pm | #8

   That's what I just said Boss. So why the pressure tank? Go with on demand and a float switch if all you are doing is watering . If he is filling a stock tank why would need pressure? The cows gonna shower. Water for irrigation is now another story.

   He also taked about heat so he must be trying to water in the winter too.

3. 
   BossHog | Jul 09, 2003 08:31pm | #20

   If you're watering livestock, I thought this might interest you:

   http://www.progressivefarmer.com/farmer/magazine/article/0,14730,458896,00.html

   Marrying a divorced man is ecologically responsible. In a world where there are more women than men, it pays to recycle.

4. 
   BossHog | Jul 10, 2003 09:49pm | #24

   Ran across this link, and also thought it was interesting:

   http://frostfreenosepumps.com/

   At first glance, a "nose pump" sounds pretty gross.....................(-:

   Sacred cows make the best hamburgers.

5. 
   IMERC | Jul 11, 2003 09:05am | #29

   I checked with several customers that I put these systems in for. (5)

   Residentual. (1) The pump fills a 1k gallon cistern up hill from the house. The house gravity feeds off of the cistern. Pump cycles on once or twice a week. Float switch and no pressure tank.

   Small stock tank. 100 to 300 gallon. The pump cycles on once or twice a day. Just a few horses water at each. Must have put in at least 20 of these systems. 3 horse can do a 100 gallons of water a day.

   Stock tanks. 1k or better (4 installled, 3 total solar). Pump cycles on 5 or 6 times a day. Fair number of cattle.

   None have pressure tanks. All have the supply lines below frost line and bottom feed into the tanks. All are float switch controlled. 2 are solar heated.

   1 wind powered pump supplies a 2.5k gallon tank. Constant water feed. Over flow set to return excess / run off water to the well so that it is not "poured"out on the ground..

6. 
   hasbeen | Jul 13, 2003 02:02am | #31

   I have some experience with these rural and/or stock systems.  Listen to IMERC, he knows what he's talking about.

   Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

1. 
   IMERC | Jul 13, 2003 07:27am | #32

   I think adbreese did the D&C thing. Hasn't picked up in 3 days.

1. 
   hasbeen | Jul 13, 2003 08:15am | #33

   D & C ? 

   Surgery?  Dusting & Cleaning ?

   What's it mean?Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

1. 
   Luka | Jul 13, 2003 08:34am | #34

   Duck and cover. A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.

   Quittin' Time

2. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Jul 13, 2003 09:00am | #35

   Drinking and Carousing

   It's a research project on whether bar taps require pressure tanks or not.Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

1. 
   GregGibson | Jul 14, 2003 11:48pm | #36

   No, guys, if he's talking about stock watering, this is more what he needs.

   (http://www.vintagewindmills.com)

   Greg