This question is based on actual Posts pulled from the headlines but neither refers to nor depicts any comments previously made on BT ; )
When you have an agreement to do a scope of work, at a certain price, within a certain time frame – are you required to do the best quality your in your arsenal?
AND
Are BOTH parties -Tradesperson and Client – equally responsible for the result?
Idealists may state “I would NEVER do substandard work.†Hey, sometimes the client wants a paint job and can only afford so much. Does this therefore entitle them to a cheaper price only or does it relegate them to less quality, or does it preclude them from even having the work done?
Please, I am not defining substandard as dangerous, not to code or something which would compromise structure. I am referring to basically finish trades/ jobs, ie: finish carpentry, tile work, taping, painting, flooring – coping vs mitering, dead nuts level vs within 1/16″ per ft tile, 3 coats vs perfectly feathered taping, rolled vs sprayed walls, Select vs #1 common flooring, etc. Purely aesthetics.
Is it the Tradesperson’s role to follow the Client’s instructions? This relates, but is not limited, to finish sheen, paint color, grout line dimensions or color and moulding selections. To what extent, if any, is he/ she responsible for educating the Client? What are the Client’s parameters?
Let’s, for sake of this discussion, agree that the Time dynamic is constant.
HOs are encouraged to respond to this. I am truly interested in your perspective, motivation and expectations when contracting and dealing with tradespeople.
F.
Edited 3/11/2004 11:15 am ET by Frankie
Replies
Interesting topic.
As a homeowner I am often willing to trade quality for cost. I would have prefered granite counter tops, but chose formica as a more inexpensive alternative.
I'd be willing to do the same on a paint job, as long as the it was possible to define the level's of quality associated with each cost. And I think that's the most difficult part; how do you define the level's of quality in a clear enough manner that I as the consumer can clearly understand what I'm getting.
I don't want to be picky - just clear.
Laminate (Formica), granite, ceramic and stainless steel are not dif levels of quality, though they are different levels of cost. There is good and bad quality within each material choice as well as in their installation.
"How do you define the level's of quality in a clear enough manner that I as the consumer can clearly understand what I'm getting?"
Exactly my point, and if I may add: When the single aspect of the equation/ negotiation which the Client understands and has control over (and therefore maybe more inclined to be focused on) is Budget.
F.
Frankie,
I don't think the word "quality" can be used as a one size fits all term. To me, quality is highly subjective. You limited it to finish work, so those are the terms I will speak in. I would spend more time and be more fussy if I was installing cherry crown on some cabinets that cost $60k, as compared to paint grade FJ crown in a tract house. Same goes for DW finishing. On one hand you have a small closet, on the other a highly used hallway with windows on one end that let in low angle sunligh, covered with semi-gloss paint.
Now it's important to clarify that a hack job is a hack job. You mentioned the codes but they typically don't apply to finish work. Instead, I would label trim joints that have a 3/8" gap unacceptable in any house in any location.
So to answer your first question, I believe you are required to do the best work you can that is in agreement with the rest of the structure and the clients wishes. You mentioned price, but I think it's your responsibility to set the price commensurate with the client and house. If the client wants to exceed the level of quality that's their perogative, they better let you know before hand (and you as a contractor should be asking the questions to find out).
Jon Blakemore
I am glad you replied. You brought up some points I was hoping we would address.
"A hack job is a hack job." Okay, but what’s a “Hack Job?â€
I am not asking for examples. I am asking for concepts, truths, standards. Does it have any relationship to price? Hmmm. Is poor quality concidered hack work on a high-end job but not on a low budget job?
If I earn $30/hr and a client offers me a job where the pure labor cost is $900, I must complete that job in 30hrs or accept a paycut. Time and budget will therefore dictate quality. If quality must suffer (because I ain’t goin’ hungry for nobody), does it then become hack work?
I have stated to (prospective) clients that I can do the job for $500, $5000, or $25,000 but each job result is very different. Relatively speaking, the $500 is basically garbage and rarely done, however sometimes is requested. Is it then hack work?
You wrote "you are required to do the best work you can that is in agreement with the rest of the structure and the clients wishes." The rest of the structure? But what if they don't want to pay for that. And “Client’s Wishes†Well, you realy can't get more ambiguous than what the Clients wishes will be at the end of the project.
F.
Frankie,
I have stated in the past that I often work at a lower than FHB standard set by some folks here. I am willing to work at the level requested as long as I can make the profit margin I normally make.
Last year I installed drywall on a wall of a junk shop here in town. 40 foot of 2 X 4's and 10' high rock installed on an old brick wall far from straight. 2 coats of mud, no sanding. Thats what they asked for and thats what they got. They painted it and hung stuff all over it. They are happy to get off cheap and I got paid and made money.
I converted a large open office building into 3 apartments. Drywall partitions, drop hung ceiling, cheap cupboards, done at 100MPH with little regard to final finishes other than paint. Again, they were thrilled and are making money, I made money, all are happy.
Are these "hack" jobs? I don't know. Somewhere down the line someone will probably look at them and think so thinking the owner got screwed. But in both cases the owner was looking for, and got what I would consider a value based job that is not up to the best standards but is safe, practical, and cost effective for the given goal. And again, I made the money I wanted.
I appreciate the artistic and the folks who work for the rich and shameless. And we have some of those customers too but living in a small area we don't really have enough wealthy folks to go around. So working for Joe average is our option. We are expensive in our area to the people we service but have built a reputation for offering good quality work, value conscious, getting it done on time, on budget, honesty, and we clean up after ourselves on a daily basis. We offer what most guys do that work for the wealthy to Joe average and they too appreciate it. DanT
Frankie,
per your example: It's either-or.
If your earning thirty bucks an hour, then whatever level of "quality" you and the client decides overrules the cost constrants. What has to happen is you will promise a level of quality that is tangable and he will either limit your time or set you free.
If the labor is worth $900.00, then whether you produce the product in 4 hours or 900 hours is inmaterial.
Quality is always defined, described and agreed by both parties prior to fix a price ar a wage. Whether you call it crap quality or top drawer is subjective. It's defined by the parties involved.
Edited 3/11/2004 11:06 pm ET by McDonnell
mark.... another thing about the subjective part of the "standard of quality"...
if your business is referral.. then everything you do is an adverstisement..
oftentimes taking a job that demonstrates a lower quality of design or fits and finishes is sending the wrong message to the potential customers you are trying to reach..
we do work for everyone from widows on social security to very wealthy where money is no object.. we always try to make sure the level is commensurate with the fitness of function.. and keeping in mind how open to criticism we may be from the evil son-in-law lurking behind every widow....
we try to maintain that level by making sure our price is enough to allow us to deliver .. if we can't get our price , then we can't do the job..
the old.. "competing against no one but ourselves"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
From my HO/DIY point of view, the worst hack job is one where the execution is flawed. I'm paying the same for materials, same for the labor and subs profit, for a job that could be done well or in hack fashion.
Examples: It takes just as much time to shoot nails through expensive sheathing into air as into expensive studs or trusses.
It takes just as much time to excavate too deep or too wide as right on the money...same hourly machine costs, same labor, same profit.
It takes very little additonal time to measure the diagonals.
These are real life examples from the jobs I've subbed out on this project. Quality materials, good workmanship for the most part, premium labor and profit margins for this area, but definately a few of what I would consider hack flaws.
Sounds like the foundation and framing that has gone on on my home.
frankie... comming to this point a little late.. but late is better than never..
<<<"A hack job is a hack job." Okay, but what’s a “Hack Job?†>>
a hack job is when a job is done to substandard conditions , either thru ignorance or fraud...
some examples would be... using ten nails on a sheet of sheathing when 42 would be standard..
pouring a 12" deep footing when a 42" deep footing is required...
not compacting fill under a slab..
painting with finish paint without priming..
installing roof shingles without felt or ice & water membrane.... improper nailing of roofing materila..
using a 7" exposure on shingles if a max of 5" is called for..
eliminating flashings because noone can see themMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I was thinking about writing that a hack job is like the judge said about pornography, "I can't describe it to you, but I know it when i see it"
But then you come along witha whole list of examples of things that the HO CAN'T see because they are already covered up.
'course that leads to another comparison between hacks and those girls...
a little putty and a litle paint
;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
hmmmmm... that phrase.. " a little putty , a little paint".. has certainly been a part of my eddykashun..
i member when one customer told me i was never going to be any good until i started hiring professionals... painters in particular..
i was still using firemen.. good prices.. good workers .. but not real painters
i took his advice and hooked up with a pro.. what an education
but another part of that was trying to design details and specs that lend themselves to low maintenance , high quality with semi-skilled workers..
how many cabinet makers are on the job ?.... in my case ...none..
good trim guys (GOOD trim guys ) are not cabinet makers ... and paint grade built-ins are a whole level below stain grade...
boy , do i love paint... and avoid stain.....
i guess that belongs in the category of "customer expectations "Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
piffen.. just as an aside.. jeff is after me to start writing up a synopsis of events that will qualify RhodeFest as a professional outing for those that would be entitled to expense it..
i'm thinking you might have some ideas on these lines.. like a Softplan demo ..on the lines of CAD for the building professinals..
maybe Jerrald and sonny giving demos of thier newest thoughts on the business..
jeff & mark doing a yin-yang thing on tile in Oz vs. PGH
mogo with the use of the A-10 as a donut design vehicle...
start scratching your head , eh ? Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
OK I got the thinking cap out of the closet.
You realize this is getting dangerously close to a commitment?
and we haven't even had our first date yet, sweetheart.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
yeah , yeah , yeah.... just get back to work....
'er should i have tried the olde.... kiss , kiss..
remember ... creative... can't let the sage of pittsburg show us olde guys upMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Try a book called "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance."
It should give you a whole new outlook on "Quality."
yeah, then you end up in the loony bin. i've read that book about 5 times (i do that with books more than i do it with movies, siddhartha has to be approaching 20). the follow up is pretty good too, but doesn't smack you the way zen does because pirsig's analytic process doesn't seem as foreign anymore. sorta like the matrix reloaded. introduce a new concept or epistemology, and how do you follow up that birth? shame, i think he only wrote two books.
shame, i think he only wrote two books.
That is correct. Robert Pirsig has written only Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance : An Inquiry into Values and Lila: An Inquiry Into Morals.
I have read Zen 5~6 times myself, but have never managed to finish Lila. For some reason the use of the boat rather than a motorcycle doesn't work as well for me. Maybe it is because of all the motorcycles in my garage ;-)
My personal favorite book is Atlas Shrugged. I have read it every 18~24 months since the early '70's and still find things new in it. It is an interesting viewpoint of our discussion about price vs. quality, and I believe a quite relevant viewpoint.
It's subjective to the process which client and tradesman should perform before any ink is on a contract, talking it through, hashing it out...then when it is on the contract the agreements should be spelled out as specifically as possible. Money is usually the governing factor. It's hard to do hack work when you are a highly skilled craftsman, so you have to stand firm and get the money for it. Otherwise be prepared to walk, unless of course the kids are going hungry and you do what you have to do.
Frankie, It looks to me as if your philosophy is to get the job and then give the client what he wants without starving yourself. And this raised the question to you of how much can you honorably let quality slide without shafting the client or doing a hack job.
IMHO, you have to set your standards, tell the client what they are, price the job so as to feed you while meeting your standards, schedule the job to your standards, and tell the client, how much and how long. If they are insistant about getting it done sooner, reprice to reflect that you have to hire crews and subs, supervise them, and pay them while they fix a mistake they made 'cuz they aren't you. If they don't want your standards, oh well, onto the next job.
Don't fall into the trap of thinking that you have to meet the clients demands for cheap and fast and quality work, and then figure out how to live with it.
SamT
very tough question that we all have had to wrestle with on every job. there is, above what any of us would consider obvious "hack" work, a certain level of expectation. this can be observed by looking around the customer's house at other work done, the level of materials being used, the attitude of the customer, and even down to the manner in which they keep their house tidy. these factors all contribute to a general "feel" for what a client's desires will be, what they expect, and how they will consider the finished product.
believe it, most will price and perform a job differently depending on factors other than the work being done. if, when an estimate is being done, someone has kids running around, dogs, a ton of extraneous crap laying around, poor housekeeping skills, nowhere to set up a work area, this person will get charged a lot more for the process, and probably end up with a worse job because of these aforementioned conditions. i will rush a job (not to the point of substantial sacrifice in craftsmanship, but maybe not the extra feathery touches) if the environment in which i am working is not conducive to quality. luckily, or rather, intentionally, i do a lot of work at the shore off-season in unoccupied houses, where i have free reign. these jobs get done both faster and at a higher level than others, and both parties are satisfied.
quality and cost are a trade-off, the problem being what each party envisions as a fair deal. yes, i will be even more fastidious, to the point of psychosis, on a high-end job as compared to a run-of-the-mill cabinet-counter-tile kitchen remodel. most HO's, however, do not consider theirs "run of the mill", so you have the difference between looking at a wide-angle lens view of a kitchen in a magazine to looking at a grout joint that will be under the stove from six inches away. they have a right to quality craftsmanship, of course, but they do not have quite the same right as someone paying three times as much. this is called a capitalist system. i will go the extra mile for no financial benefit on occasion, simply because i like the client's taste. i'll go further for less money on a small job if i think there will be bigger ones where i will recoup in the future. my price is considerate of all of the aforementioned, and i know to where i will not stoop. if a homeowner wants to take a lower bid, or if i won't do some schlocky faux crap they saw on tv for my own personal reasons (rep, pride, quality, taste), fine. the lower bid could be better than me (hell, i'm sure i'm the low bid sometimes), they're probably just not making as much. all of this enters into the price vs. quality issue, but the bottom line in the vast majority of instances, that for whatever reason people cannot fathom, is the tried and true bottom line- ya get what ya pay for.
homer-"marge, do you want it done right or do you want it done fast?". "well, like all americans, fast, but..." (homer opens stuck drawer by exploding a stick of dynamite in it). marge (debris all over, soot, but drawer is open)-"well, you can't argue with success." -the simpsons
"the big question is, what can we forgive? tough part of the job. tough part of walking down the street."-magnolia
This thread has fired up some responces. There is one situation that has not been covered. What do you do if your trade depends upn some one else's "hack" job?
Customer does adeal and gets a sweet price on slick cabinets (all hardwood faceframe & matching hardwood doors & drawer heads, on 5/8" mdf boxes). But then you have to hang them and countertop underlayment on the worst possible hack framing job (no uniform "on center" ranging from 13 to 17"; studs like pretzels, rock follows the studs; worst of all, no blocking [fire or for the cabinets]). Job is supposed to be all new remodel framing, "to the highest standard," quoth the HO.
What to do then? The three day install has now become a nitemare 5 or 10 days. This after figuring out how to hang the uppers about 1 1/4" off the wall to level & plumb the fronts; and sendign back all of the uderlayment PB, as the 24" wide sent is no good, the job needs 26" wide, and will all need to be scribed to fit the wall. Oh, and the laminate man has walked off the job, as he cannot roll the laminate up on the wavy wall no way no how, "unless the cabinte guy wants to furr the wall out even . . . " (Like, I'm keen to take the rath of the electricians for a callback to get the boxes flush--not they are going to be real happy chipping mud out of the boxes as is, or the bent & broken off wire in those boxes . . . )
But, matbe I'm just gunshy . . .
Jer - A truth! "Money is usually the governing factor." But i am trying to distinguish between hack and low quality work. Must clients only have a choice of BMW quality and K Car quality? Isn't there anything in between and how is it defined when the client is not well versed in the result:cost ratio?
DanT - Real world experience and actions. It's a tough call and balance. I admit though I have been negative in emphisizing situation when things go wrong.
SamT - My emphisis is not "to get the job and then figure what the minimum of effort I can get away with is." You suggest I set my standards and only work for people who agree/ appriciate my standards. I don't beleive this is a realistic/ profitable perspective. In a perfect world this would be the standard, but in my world this is only a goal. The reality is not everyone can afford a beautiful job - the high end work we are capable of. Does this mean I must send them to someone else? I dunno.
trimnailer37 - good points.
McDonnell - You missed the point. Since when does the "level of 'quality' you and the client decides overrules the cost constraints?" Do you understand what ou stated? Please read it again.
CapnMac - Bingo! Every set of documents prepared by an Arch always states that work be executed to the highest standards - yet they are bidding the project to get the cheapest price. This is a perfect built-in conflict.
F.
This is an interesting topic in the vein that it has taken. I confess that I don't know all the ansewrs to it. And I'm on my second cup of coffee after getting up at 4AM to pay bills so I'm not sure how well I'll express my thoughts here.
In my life, I have mostly tried to always do the best I can on each job, meaning that I have often spent a few free hours there.
That has earned me the reputation of being a bit better than average. It has eaarned me the chance to do some work that probably calls for a higher quality than I am capable of and the challenges have helped me grow and find this a satisfying career.
Now comes along Joe Sixpack and he has seen the average job and now he walks through one of mine and he thinks, "Hey, this guy does pretty good work. I'll get him to re-do my kitchen"
He probably assumes that I am in the same ballpark as some other guys, price wise, but just happen to do a better job.
It is my job in the very first interview to define expectations, or force him to define budget. I don't want to waste time making an estimate that will blow him away, he'll be telling people that I am a ripoff because he knows soandso who got a similar job done for a third of my price. The quandry is that if I lower the standard so I can meet his budget, and he still expects the same fine qualioty that he has seen in other places I have worked on, he will nit-pick me to death.
It is a tricky conversation but something that has to be done right up front. Most people appreciate my dirtectness; othgers can be put off. better now than later. There has to be an understanding of the level of work expected and the budget constraints with trust and open communication. comparison to the auto industry is a good one. A Kia is not the same car as a Mercedes. Looking at what he has parked inthe drive and the style and items in the rest of his house are ways to get a feel for his expectations and a springboard for conversation as well.
Ideally, I would select only the best customers and the best jopbs and focus on the boutique clientele. But that takes care of 9-10 months of the year. The rest is filed with handyman and misc. Some of those jobs lead to a referal to a top-grade job later, so the quality i put into even small jobs defines who I am and what I do.
So I have observed that the higher I rise on the food chain, the more is expected of me and the more I expect of myself. I find it harder to do economy level work. I have the same problem at home. My wife also works in houses that are upper level so she sees fine stuff and wants it at home too.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Frankie:
In my humble opinion, quality is budget-driven, but that isn't to say that the budget always reflects the client's financial means. If all the houses on Elm Street fall into the $95 per sq. ft. range, and I build mine at $195 per sq. ft., is that a good investment? Am I likely to see a return on my investment if I sell? Unlikely. The safe bet is to conform, regardless of whether or not I can afford more. So yes, varying levels of quality are necessary and desirable. And there are probably as many levels in between "hack" and "Mercedes" as there are budgets.
I believe the tradesperson should give the level of quality he or she has discussed with the client, the quality upon which the bid is based, and that is further specified in the contract. Beyond that, assuming he or she has the skills necessary to deliver a higher quality, whether or not expectations are exceeded is entirely up to the tradesperson.
Though your questions referred to agreements between the Client - I'm assuming you mean Homeowner - and Tradesperson, there are situations in which the "end user", that is, the homeowner, is not the client.
In building our new home, we did not contract directly with any tradesperson, rather, we hired a General Contractor. He sent out specifications and secured bids from companies and individuals who, in his opinion, offered the level of quality our project called for. Our site supervisor was responsible for scheduling, material delivery, and any site preparation required by tradespersons. In some instances, particularly those involving interior materials and finishes, we worked directly with recommended vendors and suppliers, some of whom did the work themselves, and others who sent crews, or hired independent tradespersons to do the actual work on site. We had no say in the hiring of these individuals.
Still, did we have expectations? You bet we did. Our expectations were honed over the many months we spent with the architects who designed our home. They were further honed as we worked with an interior designer, and refined further still working with our GC as the bids came in for our project. But all that aside, the most important factor is that our expectations are spelled out in our contract. And since our construction budget is based on the bids, not the other way around, we have every reason to believe that our budget is line with our expectations. During the building process, on those occasions when our expectations moved slightly up the scale, we were rewarded with a Change Order. :) We learned to stay on course pretty darn quick.
Are both the client and tradesperson equally responsible for the result? I don't know that I would agree with "equal" responsibility, but yes, the responsibility is shared to some degree. When I chose contrasting grout colors, any number of people in the chain could have stepped up and explained to me that I might not be happy with the results, but they didn't. If I knew then what I know now, would I have made different choices? I can't honestly say, but I can tell you that once I understood that the end result was affected by my selections, I lowered my expectations. I did so willingly, because it was necessary. That's me, the homeowner, accepting responsibility.
Is it the Tradesperson's role to follow the Client's instructions? The above example notwithstanding, yeah, unless he wants to do it twice. Our specs are detailed as hell, comprising some 58 pages of our contract. So, unless there is a Change Order directing otherwise, if it's in the specs, it's gospel. But since the tradesperson's bid is based on the specs, there were few surprises.
Did we get the best in their arsenal? I have no idea, but I do know that the level of quality expected was made very clear, and all tradespersons but one met or exceeded them. And yeah, that dude is still on the job, and yeah, he's meeting our newly revised expectations.
To what extent, if any, is the tradesperson responsible for educating the client? I guess that's up to each individual, but if I were a tradesperson, I'd educate the client from the first moment I shook their hand until the day I finished the job, or until they told me to shut up, whichever came first.
Now, all I have left to say is that my efforts to answer your questions are sincere, so please, Frankie, be gentle with me.
Chouter
Thank you for making the distinction between End-User and Client. It’s an important one . And your assumption is correct. I am referring to Client as End-User/ HO.
“We were rewarded with a Change Order.†- One nice thing about building your own home is that you have the opportunity to make mistakes, learn from them , and then apply this new found knowledge later on in the process.
“Any number of people in the chain could have stepped up and explained to me†- Do you feel they should have? Why/ why not?
Did you have any discussion(s) with the GC to define your priorities regarding where you expect better quality and where you would accept less? If so, when and for what?
Did you have a fixed budget contract with the GC based on a cost + 16% or was it strictly cost + 16% with out a ceiling? - that the GC was informed of?
At any point, was there a discussion regarding cost projections and the need to recover from or make-up an over budget expense earlier in the project? Who was responsible for getting back on course?
This being new construction, how much exposure to samples of levels of quality in the various trades did you have? This may have been more fun regarding kitchen cabinets than paint finishes. Did you do either? Both?
“I'd educate the client from the first moment.“ - Don’t get me started. I used to educate my clients from day one to the scheduled go/ callback one year after completion. That has proved a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. If they didn't like something I suggested they'd ask me to redo it, their way and at my expense, as though my suggestion included an “only pay if you like it" feature. Very costly. Now I am happy to answer their questions and try (it’s hard) not to volunteer information. If you want polka-dot pink and green doors - I’ll price, you pay, I’ll install.
BTW - How I expressed myself to you earlier may have been a bit tough but my posts tend to be long enough. Writing more, to soften the blow, would make them unreadable. I was also exasperated by your info, or lack thereof, and others willingness to pass judgment without it. No malice was intended. My passion comes from my love and respect for my profession, craft and fellow tradespeople.
That was then. This is now. Let’s all move on.
F.
Very well written presentation and one I agree with for the most part. But there are two statements thaty are in opposition to one another. Maybe not on the surface, but definitely in practice when a job site is full of human beings.
"... if I were a tradesperson, I'd educate the client from the first moment I shook their hand ..."
"Is it the Tradesperson's role to follow the Client's instructions? The above example notwithstanding, yeah, unless he wants to do it twice. Our specs are detailed as hell, comprising some 58 pages of our contract. So, unless there is a Change Order directing otherwise, if it's in the specs, it's gospel. "
Given the above, what incentiveis there for a simple tradesman to advise a client when his every action is spelled out in advance and in Gospelish language. The written language has already told him, in effect, to shut up and do the work.
There is another aspect to this paradox. Too often, I have found in the past, when a sub is attempting to "educate" the client, he is mostly rambling and sometimes trying to talk the client into having things done in a way that is easier for that tradesamn, with absolutely no concept of the overall design goals or the impact that change item can have on the entire job and all the other subs. He is only selling his own individual idea and ignoring the chain of command.
I don't tolerate that now from clients or subs. Communications include me. Period. The homes I work on and the projects I do are so intricately designed and fitted together that it is impossible to change one thing without changing every thing. WE have a dynamic process and we change aplenty, but it is only with my knowledge.
Compare it to a ship. The captain is in charge. The navigator or helmsman or deck hand do not educate the ships owner how to get back to port or suggest a side trip to the Isles of Humongus Ideals when the Captain is concerned with avoiding the typhoon bearing down, the leak in the stern, and the flaky radioman who seems to be having psyche problems.
I'm sure you didn't mean to put out such contrasting thoughts or did so unawares of how destructive they are to one another.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"Compare it to a ship. The captain is in charge. The navigator or helmsman or deck hand do not educate the ships owner how to get back to port or suggest a side trip to the Isles of Humongus Ideals when the Captain is concerned with avoiding the typhoon bearing down, the leak in the stern, and the flaky radioman who seems to be having psyche problems."
So, do we have to call you Cap'n Piff now?<g>
Jon Blakemore
Not on your jobs, Master Jon
lol
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Chouter,
Well written and with many good points. I do disagree with the following two statements:
Is it the Tradesperson's role to follow the Client's instructions? The above example notwithstanding, yeah, unless he wants to do it twice.
To what extent, if any, is the tradesperson responsible for educating the client? I guess that's up to each individual, but if I were a tradesperson, I'd educate the client from the first moment I shook their hand until the day I finished the job, or until they told me to shut up, whichever came first.
I think these two statements collide like two fast moving locamotives. I have dealt with clients that say they want educated, you give them advice and they take none of it. And everyone of them says "really we appreciate and want your advice". I had a lady on one occasion tell me the location of a support pillar was all wrong for the look she wanted. I explained that it had to go in that location in order to support the wall we just eliminated at her request. She said she wanted the pillar put back 3 feet and she would live with the fact it might "move" a little over the years. I took a framing hammer and knocked the temporary post out a little, just enough to crack the drywall above it and create a nice sounding crack. She changed her mind. A lot of education in a short period of time.
I agree with Frankie, educating the client only means you will be held to the fire if they don't like it. So I am an installer. Want advice or education. Talk to your architect, sister in law, co-worker or mate. The best you will get from me is narrowing it down to 2 or 3 choices. You make the choice, pay the money and I will make it happen.
Do I wish it were the way you describe? Sure, but its not. You of course think that you would be different if I tried to educate you but I doubt it. After all even now you don't know if you would have changed your mind on the grout. Even after all these knowledgable skilled tile installers agreed on that one point. So I think you and most other consumers only wish for education when it doesn't get in your way or doesn't interfere with your "vision" of a dream while we try to figure out how to make it work functionally, safely, and last the test of time. DanT
To Frankie, Piffin & DanT:
Isn't it interesting that in response to my post stating that if I were a tradesperson, I would try continuously to educate my client, you used the words "advise" and "suggest" to describe your experiences. The problem is, those words, and certainly the acts, are not interchangeable.
ADVISE: to counsel, caution, warn of consequences, recommend, advise prudence, to inform or give notice.
SUGGEST: to seek to influence; to call forth; to mention or imply as a possibility; to propose as desirable or fitting; to offer for consideration or as a hypothesis
EDUCATE: to lead forth, to provide schooling, to develop mentally, morally, or aesthetically, to provide information, to persuade or condition to feel, believe, or act in a desired way.
When I refer to "educating the client" I am not talking about making suggestions, or offering construction advice, or alternate materials, or paint colors, or anything resembling design services, or making changes of any kind. (Piffin, I have been well-trained by our GC, and I follow the pecking order to a 'T' when it comes to communicating changes. :) What I am referring to is educating the client about my trade, my services, my contribution to the project, and the process I will go through in order to meet, and possibly exceed, his expectations. I will most certainly make a first impression upon meeting the client, but I am far more interested in leaving a lasting one when my job is done. You might find that to be idealistic or even unnecessary, but that would be my goal with every client.
Over the past 13 months, numerous tradespeople have come and gone from our construction site. There are a few who were on site for a considerable amount of time, yet I don't know what services they provided. Those who made the effort to help me understand their role, are the ones I remember, the ones I most appreciate, and the ones I will call whenever the need arises.
In my opinion, education is one of the most powerful tools in anyone's arsenal.
Chouter <---- feverishly packing, YAY!
Chouter,
Interesting how we can view the same information differently. After reading your definitions I found that they all seemed adjoined. Hmmmm. Well I guess we will all have to agree to disagree on that point.
I have a little background in teaching. Taught high school at a vocational school in my area. Was considered quite good at it so I think I have an idea what it takes to educate.
But you don't think that if I say "hey, using a dark grout on those light tile is going to show every little imperfection and I can't make it so perfect that you won't notice" is not educating you as to the possibility of the consequences of your decision? Or is it a "warning of consequences" such as the word advise defines? Or am I "implying a possibility" such as the word suggest implies? As I said I think they all interchange.
Anyway I still don't understand how you think that me educating you would have made any difference in the out come of the quality of the job. Again you said you were not sure you would have changed your mind with the information on the tile so that leads me to believe I would have been wasting my breath to have said it. I realize this is but one example but it is the only one I have.
Your point as to remembering someone on the job for future work is a nice thought. Frankly a lot of new construction tradesmen don't do remodels to speak of and vice versa. Anyway while it is important to have a good name and referals the person I am really trying to work with for my future is the GC. He hired me and if he is happy I am happy because he will call again. Probably not the case for the tile guy in this situation.
Hope the move goes well. We just move ourselves so I understand the pain. Enjoy the new home. DanT
Very interesting thread!
Quality is one of the most illusive items to quantify on a jobsite. As an Architect that focuses primarily on National Historic Restorations, and former owner of a cabinet shop and general construction firm, I have tried many times to address this issue with clients at all levels of the process.
On Thursday I submitted a proposal for architectural services on a project and within my proposal indicated that I thought the probable cost of the project (when completed) would fall in the range of $80 to $90 per SF. I stated this because a "friend" that happened to also be a GC had given the owners (Atty Firm) a budget number that worked out to be $66 per SF. At this same time, the GC told me that he would welcome a traditional Design-Bid-Build approach to the project, which reading between the lines meant that he wanted off the hook for the cost. I could not in good conscious accept the level of quality as defined, because I fear being the fall guy on the project. I may lose the project, but the client will ask better questions even if I do.
For me, it is a constant battle between what the clients expectations are and the reality of what can cost effectively be achieved in the marketplace, based upon the economic constraints originally set in place by the client. That target is at best a wildly moving target and I have found that apparent quality is different from every set of eyes. As most folks don't have the slightest clue and could care less what goes on behind the plane of the paint, I have found that to be the defining point for most discussions.
In my experience, the client often handicaps tradespeople by expecting high quality, economical work with speedy completion. For my part, I am amazed at the dedication that many tradespeople put into their individual tasks, all the while unaware of how the effort affects THEIR bottom line.
All of this being said, quality has seemed to suffer over the 39 years I have been in construction. The attention to detail seems lacking. This slide is often laid at the feet of the tradesperson, inaccurately I believe. I wish I had records of the cost of projects I have built over the years and could equate them to today's dollars. When I have had clients that have defined design and quality at the highest levels, I have always found tradespeople willing to reach for the desired level. By the same token, when the client has defined quality indiectly via price or time, I have found tradespeople willing to work towards that goal. Rarely have these goals been achieved by the same companies. I believe this is because good tradespeople internally define what their own expectations of quality are and try to always find clients that mirror that range.
I can appreciate the example of the two projects that were completed quickly, profitably and met the expectations of the client. My only fear in those kinds of projects is having the client change his expectation of quality over time and redefine their satisfaction level, all the while remembering my name!
Can I add a question to the mix?
How many of you provide conceptual estimates to clients without full understanding of the constraints on the project? Although I like the concept of Design-Build, I have found most General Contractors sadly lacking in being able to visualize/conceptualize a scope accurately and reducing a design team to a commodity level craft often bodes badly for projects.
tony.. u asked ..
<<<<
How many of you provide conceptual estimates to clients without full understanding of the constraints on the project? Although I like the concept of Design-Build, I have found most General Contractors sadly lacking in being able to visualize/conceptualize a scope accurately and reducing a design team to a commodity level craft often bodes badly for projects.>>>>
our design build always involves an interview before we write4 our Proposal for Design... in the interview we require the client to help us define the budget for the project.. hopefully they are forthcomming adn we develop enough information so a realistic budget can actually be stated as the goal..
we also try to define the things that are beyond our control in terms of budget and timing.. like zoning, permitting , spetic systems and water supply..
39 years ? you must remember how "ledge" used to be a major constraint in the days before today's more powerful excavators.. now we ALMOST don't give it a2d thought.. but groundwater and groundwater discharge has become a major issue..
the constraints are always there waiting to jump out of the bushes and surprise , aren't they ? Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike: A whole lot has changed since 1965, some for the better, some not. Down here in Texas, we are still fairly free of regulations, but they are popping up here more frequently.
I can appreciate your comments about trying to discern what the client wants and attempting to create a accurate budget. Many years of experience often tend to remind me of how little I really know about people and their dreams. Every new projects keeps me humble [somewhat anyway ;-)]. Reading between the lines seems to be an art and that may be why D/B doesn't always work out as advertised. I personally consider D/B to be a tremendous opportunity for architects to re-secure the roll of Master Builder. Bonding companies stand in the way, but constructive alliances with construction professionals have made rain makers out of numerous frustrated architects. Now if we can only learn how to deal with the "owners representative" that slices and dices a project to the 3rd decimal place without a clue as to the reasons behind a proposal or bid.
A fair amount of my time is spent dealing with misconceptions that many people have about the process of completing a restoration that complies with the Secretary of Interior Standards for Rehabilitation and the process of placing a building on the National Register. Many people seem way too casual in their approach to property development. This appears true even in larger development corporations.
In a way, I find myself struggling to move down the development ladder to where I am dealing with peoples dreams again, rather than the ROI on an investment. My involvement in the Main Street program has been a step in that direction.
What kind of Oh S... factor do you include when you produce a conceptual estimate? I have been known to include as much as 25% if the number of unknowns is high.
That is one reason I was concerned about the budget of the building I mentioned in my last post. The "structural engineer" [friend of the owners and contractor] that had been hired to access the structural condition did not even know that the building has a wood first floor system built on joists. He thought it was a slab-on-grade and that he could add a bunch of columns in the first floor lease space to support the second, third and fourth floor loads. Those loads he was going to transfer with load bearing walls. BTW - He doesn't have the slightest clue as to the load carrying capacity of the existing floor system. Meanwhile, the owners are telling me that the 1st and 2nd floor tenant wants the building as open as possible without any walls and they [3rd and 4th floor] want perimeter offices with the middle of the building being open.
All of this in a load bearing masonry structure with cast iron columns, solid wood beams and full dimension 3x16 joists on 14 inch center floor structure building built originally as a 2 story structure in 1903 and expanded to 4 stories in 1906.
Why do I know so much about the building? Good question, I LIVED in it for 6 months and having nothing better to do in the evenings besides drink beer and surf the web, measured and drew the structure in my computer. Needless to say, I have not told my "future client". He would probably want me to discount my fee. :-o
Some days give me a headache!!!
tony... as if he invested the time drinking beer and surfing the web... some people? nu?...
sounds like a cool building..... Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I am a Contractor, not an English Professor. I don’t argue with word usage. When a client refers to a joist or even a column as a beam, I understand and appreciate WHAT the client is saying and don’t distract the conversation with HOW he/she is saying it.
You want an education? Great! Understand, that takes time. Time is money. My time is a lot of money. As long as you are a) willing to pay for it, b) schedule it and c) have class apart from normal business functions, (ie: not while I am painting your Living Room for a contract price) I would be happy to arrange time to educate you. It is my experience that clients/HO don’t want this - under these terms.
Why should I stick my neck out by “suggestingâ€, “advisingâ€, or “educating†without being compensated for it? Aren't I taking on a liabilty? What's the upside - you like me or so I can be put on your short list of people who do things for free or at a discount? You want these services? Just as you would hire an Arch or Des or other consultant, you can hire me. We can then agree on a fee and begin.
AAHH, but you may say that you have already hired me so I should be forth coming. However, you hired me to paint your Living Room. Just as that does not include painting other rooms, tiling, or carpentry ( I can do all of these quite well) it does not include consulting or educating.
If I went to my bank and asked them to explain the whole banking process to me and then let me decide what they should do with my money I don’t think I would be humored for very long. Why should/ are the rules different in the building business?
Basically, clients have recognized that tradespeople are rarely business people and try to use this to their advantage. Understandable? Yes. Right? No. Practical? Depends on if you’re a) the client or Tradesperson and b) your budget.
The original post focuses on informing the client of the price quality dynamic and dealing with it when the Client's budget seems to be static and their knowledge base seems to be dynamic. I don't beleive it requires Tradespeople to offer additional services for free. There must be another way.
And the thread moves along.............
F.
Edited 3/13/2004 2:23 pm ET by Frankie
You're right, of course, and I can imagine that some people are capable of yakking to the point of making your job difficult. I don't mean to split hairs with semantics, either, as advice and suggestions can be very educational, as can observing, reading and so on. I was only speaking to my comment that I would try to educate the client from the moment I shook his hand until the time I finished the job. Variables abound, and certainly you've all experienced many more of them than I could possible imagine, so again, I think whether or not educating the client is helpful or even desirable is up to each individual.
To answer your earlier questions, Frankie,
“Any number of people in the chain could have stepped up and explained to me†- Do you feel they should have? The grout example is one of a zillion instances where those more knowledgeable that I could have chimed in, some (architects, interior designers) because they were paid to ensure our choices were good ones, others (vendors) won our business by helping us with selections, and others still (tradesmen) whose expertise is knowing what is doable and what isn't. Coulda, woulda shoulda...ultimately, I am solely responsible for the grout selections. I don't think I even discussed whether or not my choices were good ones with anyone but my husband. (HEY! Wait a minute... Yeah, it's his fault come to think of it... :)
Did you have any discussion(s) with the GC to define your priorities regarding where you expect better quality and where you would accept less? If so, when and for what? Many times. One example, the kids bedrooms and bathrooms versus the master suite. There are rooms where we put more money than others, the kitchen for example, is way more per sq. ft than the rest of the house, but I think that's more the norm than not.
Did you have a fixed budget contract with the GC based on a cost + 16% or was it strictly cost + 16% without a ceiling? - that the GC was informed of? The only thing that increased the cost of our project is if we made a change, or something unexpected popped up, such as a buried oil tank on the site. (Ugh.) So I guess you could say there was no ceiling per se, but I kept a close watch on things. :) Otherwise, fixed. And we went with our GC's terms, not the other way around.
At any point, was there a discussion regarding cost projections and the need to recover from or make-up an over budget expense earlier in the project? No, not that I recall, at least not with the GC. With our architects, yes, and we did make alternate material selections due to budgetary considerations, but before the contract was ever signed. Who was responsible for getting back on course? Me. But we never got too far off, I'm happy to say. Half our change orders were credits, and the remaining ones totaled around 1.5 - 2 percent of our original contract.
This being new construction, how much exposure to samples of levels of quality in the various trades did you have? We did research as much as anyone might when building a new home. Our architects and GC either directed us to see a particular sample, or they brought it to us. We also viewed many homes built by our GC, spoke with former clients, went to home shows, met with vendors, spent a great deal of time online trying to learn what was out there.... and so on. This may have been more fun regarding kitchen cabinets than paint finishes. In my case, it was the other way around. I'm not a shopper, so I didn't particularly relish getting out and about. But when it came to paint finishes, or more precisely, wall finish, I obsessed over it. I wanted smooth walls, no texture, square corners, not radius. And yes, I kept my expectations in check regarding "perfectly" smooth walls. They turned out beautifully and I love them. :)
Regarding previous posts, you and I are alike when it comes to wanting the big picture, full disclosure, all the info there is, before chiming in. I find there is a fine line between how much information is actually relevant, and how much forum participants are willing to wade through. Two other factors, there is a point where I become uncomfortable making information public, and also, it's a matter of time. It takes a long time to thoughtfully respond to questions. But I want you to know that I have learned so much in posting here. I can understand completely your disappointment in some of the responses of your fellow tradesmen, but it was the nature of those responses that helped me come to terms with reality and accept responsibility. Your questions also made me think about things in a larger context, and were also very helpful.
In any case, despite the fact that today is my birthday, and I really want to just lay around and be pampered (BAHAHAHA!) I am being given the evil eye, which says to me "get packing".
I enjoy you all very much.
Chouter
Happy Birthday then, old man.
Thanks for the interpretation of how you used the word "educate" but to my mind, what you describe is more a matter of campaigning, salesmanship, and charisma than education. It is establishing a rapport more than informing.
I notice that even though you provide three definitions in your attempt to educate us, that all three definitions for three different words use synonyms that are quite interchangeable in the context we used. See if you can pick them out....
"ADVISE: to COUNSEL, caution, warn of consequences, recommend, advise prudence, to inform or give notice.
SUGGEST: to seek to INFLUENCE; to call forth; to mention or imply as a possibility; to propose as desirable or fitting; to offer for consideration or as a hypothesis
EDUCATE: to lead forth, to provide schooling, to develop mentally, morally, or aesthetically, to provide information, to PERSUADE or condition to feel, believe, or act in a desired way."
I do communicate freely with clients where I feel it necessary and most find my knowledge enlightening and beneficial when they follow it. There are many times, however when I have attempted to educate clients and have wasted my time. The prophets words falling an deaf ears, so to speak. two that stand out in my memory loudly are well connected to the topic of this thread.
A lady for whom we built a house was doing her best to save a dime, even if it cost a dollar to do so. She picked out an MDF crown after I had listed good wood on the scedule. I spent an hour trying to inform, advise and influence her to avoid that choice, giving her reasons why she might find it unacceptable in the long run - to no avail. Guess what is on top of her list of items that she complains about.
Another client told me at the beginning of the job that she had her own painters and that I should price the job accordingly. I again advised, counseled, and attempted to influence her with the information that because we have some extreme weather to contend with on this coast, the local painters have developed methods of assuring quality work that can last for ten years, while painters from elsewhere might often cost 50 - 70% less, the job shows it within a couple of years. Dollar sign prejudice blinded her to the facts and deafened her ears to my words, and when painting time came along, a crew was imported from Puerto Rico. They were very nice hard working fellows, the kind who I would be glad to have on my crew because with a little guidance and advice, they would be very productive.
While I finished my last dabs of work, they went to work painting her other house. I was a bit flabergasted that they spent no time whatsoever on prep work, sanding, scraping, etc. but that house was none of my concern really. I only mentioned to her that when prep is neglected, failure of the paint job is often the result.
I did visit with the jovial foreman however, attempting to advise, cajole, inform, and educate him as to what sort of paint job I expected him to do on MY work, so as not to ruin it and make MY work look bad. I even offered to help or otherwise provide any and all assistance possible to improve the quality of the job.
The next day when I arrived at the job, at 8:30 while the siding was still dripping wet from the evening dew, I noticed the corner of a dropclothe sticking out from behind the building. You guessed it, the whole crew was back there, proud as they could be that they had already finished painting one side of the house so early in the morning, and expecting to be finished with the whole house by that evening. This was a dark green paint and the primer was still unopenned.
I just shook my head and walked away.
fast forward two years - they are planning another project and their architect called me. He had been asked to inform me ( maybe educate me, I don't know for sure) that the paint was peeling off the building I had erected and that the owners wanted me to do figure out why and to do something to correct it. He was a bit surprised by my laughter, until I explained (informed, advised, educated) him that there was good reason for the paint failure and that I intended to do nothing about it. He understood the details after a lesson was forthcoming. He was wise enough to learn after the fact what the client had been too prejudiced to learn prior. It is quite possible that the client is still living in ignorance, having failed the test and being kept back in class.
Why did I say all this?
As an object lesson that those who already know or think they know, for whatever reason, cannot be educated, regardless of the teaching ability of the tradesman.
Some tradesmen are very adept at determining who to spend the time on.
Again, May you enjoy this birthday present.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I was at a Rotary function tonight. I saw a client that we had remodeled a kitchen for a couple of years back. Always interesting how seeing someone can bring back memories rapidly.
This woman called herself "decisive". But what she really is is controling. She wanted us to simply install the work and do the needed demo. She would handle design and provide all the materials. We would just install and do the prep and demo work. I was careful in how I worded my contract and convered my a$$ well thankfully.
What this woman would do is not give you the needed information until she deemed it neccesary. That might be a day or three past when you needed it to keep the flow going. She sometimes would discuss her plan and any suggestion was nicely dismissed. Many material went back and forth numerous times in order to facilitate her mistakes. We suggested a pattern for can lights, she didn't like out ideas so she layed it out herself. We installed. Then she realized how bad it looked and asked us to fix them. She paid for it but hardly the point.
We asked for and recieved the bathtub and surround. 4 times. I finally had to call and spec what we needed as it was holding us up. When asked if she had ordered the cabinets yet, no we don't need them yet. Ummm, they take 3 to 4 weeks to get. Really? she asks. She had to rent a truck and drive over night to get them in order to keep us on time. Frustration over and over.
She liked us. She even asked once why I didn't try to influence her decisions more. Is said I had found it unwelcome and a waste of breath. She laughed. She wants us to do other work. I said we are to busy but thanks. I guess we educated her to the degree she wished. And she educated us to realize we didn't want to work there anymore. And we won't. DanT
The level of quality is your reflection. If a customer wants a "shortcut" job, we suggest they find a shortcut contractor.
Go to the Mercedes dealer, tell them you want a Mercedes, but only want/are able to pay for a Cavilier...
There is always room in the market for different levels of "quality", if you have worked hard to prove your company is at the top, why do work that shows otherwise.