I need to get some costs for custom home framing. Just wondering how you framers out there would price it and what some ball park sf costs (Northeast) would be for floor, roof and walls by the sf/lf. This is for a conceptual estimate, so no plans as of yet. But assume TJI’s at the floors, 2×6 walls, 2×10/12 roof rafters at gables and/or hip roofs – nothing to complicated. TIA
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Why not figure out how long it'll take your crew to do the job, and multiply by your required rates? Pricing by the SF, or relying on anyone else's "estimate" of what the cost should be is a sure-fire way to end up working at Home Depot in no time.
Bob
Thanks for the sound advice.
No problem. Yours is a common question around here- "what's the going rate for 'X'?", or "how much should it cost for 'Y'?" I just can't understand why so many people would rely on the advice of complete strangers on something as critical as how to price the services for "your" business.
Bob
Actually I was being facetious, re: your HD comment. I see it went over like a lead balloon. (Led Zeppelin maybe)I'm not a framer (anymore) and I was just inquiring into ballpark figures as a reality check from guys who actually bid this stuff currently. It's a conceptual estimate, not a bid. I realize the costs will vary and are job specific, nonetheless it can be useful information.
I realize the costs will vary and are job specific, nonetheless it can be useful information.
How can it be useful information if it varies. If I go into a store and ask the price of something, and I get told a price but that the price varies, what would I have learned?
JohnIf my baby don't love me no more, I know her sister will.
If a couple of guys give a range of costs that are close, I would think it would be to safe to say that it is with in that range. Notice my earlier post, conceptual estimate - not a bid - no drawings - kind of is it bigger than a bread box or not.
I'll ballpark it between eight and twelve, but since you are in NE Manhattan, your ballpaark could have the roof blown off and be more like eighteenAnother regional difference is that some framewrs are required to include the roofing and other's just get it ready for dry-in.And a big difference here is, "Who did your concrete work for you?" The wrong answer to that one can add 8-10%.now, is it on an accessable lot?
do you pay promptly?
will this be a winter or a summer build?
do you pay promptly?
Who does the material take-off and how long will you take to get me the missing lumber if it happens?
Are the plans any good?I think you're getting the idea
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thank you Piffin. The job would be in Westchester and/or CT not Manhattan. Nice to get an answer back rather than another question.<g>
$50 an hour. How is that? That is what we charge for any work we do. DanT
What's your productivity.
What's that word - productivity?
$50 per hour. The job's done when the job's done. Pay from the invoice.<G>
With very little other information than "conceptual" and maybe some 2x10s or 12s, you can't really expect anything but a "variable" range which will do you no real service.
I like Piffin's basic questions.
Does your framing include things like a severely cutup roof design, either conventional or trussed? How many floors? How many corners? How about sheathing? Dry-in? Do the framers install all the tiedowns or is there a separate crew coming in afterwards? Windows installed by the framers? Housewrap? Flashing?
After the true scope of the job is presented, then you get a realistic figure you can use to fill out your concept.
Fair enough question. I guess what I was looking for was the opinion of some of the resident framers of the cost of framing in a non-tract house (hence the term custom). In highrise construction for example the cost for placing concrete and steel can have average numbers specific to certain locals and building types, say an office building versus a school.
TG, although I am in the Southeast and would not be qualified to giive you a "SF price" for the Northeast, I can tell you that the other posters in this thread have given you sound advice.
For example, if we're framing 30-50 homes a year for a builder, our price is going to be their going SF price, for the reason we're gonna frame the same 3 plans over and over (thereby increasing efficiency over time), not to mention we're guaranteed repeat business for 29-49 more houses.
OTOH, if we're doing a custom home for an individual, we're gonna charge a lot more per SF, or just give a lump sum price (with exclusions) because 1) there's no guarantee the takeoff will be accurate and we won't be sitting & waiting for add'l supplies, 2) this is pretty much a one shot affair, and 3) we won't be as efficient as we would in a tract.
There are dozens of questions that need to be answered before an accurate price (by any unit of measure) can be given. Plans are the key!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Cheap-skate........Why do you have to lower the bell curve?Oh yeah!!! pre-programmed calculators--Ya gettin' any royalties yet?Hardy, Har-Har--Hi Dan--Sorry , couldn't resist---Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
Sure, get your jollies picking on the fat kid. DanT
"Sure, get your jollies picking on the fat kid"
Kid? Since when does 67 qualify you as a kid??
Notice I didn't disagree with the "fat" part??? LOL
Bob
Edited 9/14/2005 9:00 am ET by BobKovacs
ROAR--- That wouldn't be near as funny if I hadn't met ya--Glad I did--Do you suppose 24"OC started by some guy who couldn't get thru 16?Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
We generally take a few things into consideration, 1. How long will it take, with a little slush for small changes. Where is it? I'm not big on traffic, not to mention the cost of losing two hours a day in a car. Danger factor, How High, How steep ect. What time of year, Prime season I'm charging alot more than I would in the winter. Who am I working for? Do I know what they are like? Some guys are much much harder to work for than others, I recenly had to leave a clear path out of a roof for an 'inner eavestrough' required by an absolutely paranoid contractor, and there were plenty of other little gems like that. Someguys meet you the first day and come at the end to inspect and hand you a check.
Also I'm reluctant to give a square foot price b/c people can use that to drive your price down eg/ "Tom says he'll do it for 6.00" why are you charging 9?" I usually make sure to include my 'scope of work' to avoid confusion later aswell as a change order contract.
TG,
I just helped My father find a framer who could frame bastard hip roofs (wouldn't think something so simple was such a rare skill but apparently it is).
The job is in New Jersey near NYC. Prices ranged from $3.75 a foot to $9.50 a foot. Pretty wide range. Too wide to be of any use to you in fact.
You need to get a plan and get a solid price from someone. I would never base my estimates or concept on someone elses guess at what it might cost.
I just helped My father find a framer who could frame bastard hip roofs (wouldn't think something so simple was such a rare skill but apparently it is).
Maybe you shoulda framed it then, smart guy.
Little bit of a problem there. I've spent the last five days waiting for an airplane to take me somewhere warm and sandy for a while.
Where it beyond my seperation date and I was a civilian again, I would have gladly done it. I've done it many times in the past.
From the pictures you've post its clear you have most likely mastered such things. I think you would be disappointed to learn how many people who call themselves framers can not even frame a regular hip or a true valley.
After running someone elses crew and then my own I would consider myself a failure if I couldn't frame one. Apparently not everyone feels the same way. Maybe we have trusses to thank for that.
IS that a "Smart Guy" enough answer for ya?
SO there is no confusion,
In 1999 I was running my own business and making headway. A small framing crew. In the summer of 1999 my twin daughters were born almost four months premature One died the other was hospitalized for some time.
By 2000 my share of the cost had risen to several hundred thousand dollars. Meeting my obligations had stripped me of most operating capital and I was trimming and installing stairs with one helper.
My health care premium rose to over $3K per month because of her pre-existing condition. My wife tried getting a job with benefits but they didn't cover near the care she would need.
Having stayed active as a reservist I agreed to voluntarily deploy. That put my wife and kids in Tricare standard since we are geographically seperated. my daughter got everything she needed and I used the Soldiers and Sailors relief act to sort out the bills and eventually pay back every single dime. I sold much of the land I had invested in for the future.
In 2001 I returned home and started again. A small framing crew of four guys. I kicked off in July and by September I was making money again. And in January I was notified that I would be deploying again around March. It turned out to be April.
While Deployed I was extended the opportunity to remain on Active Duty assigned to the guard. I was reluctant at first but as we neared or return date we found out that some units were home as little as 90 days and then redeploying. i was in no position to start up and then have to close up shop again. Even if you keep all of your tools and truck it's not a cheap proposition. I decided to stay.
In the near future my commitment ends and I hope to return to working for myself. Even at 40 I would prefer to frame over anything else I have done. I'm looking into that possibility now. I must say that in my area the prices are low enough to make it difficult to justify. They are hovering around $3.50 a foot last I checked. SOme as low as $2.50.
Since you apparently can frame a bastard hip my comment shouldn't have upset you. It wouldn't have upset me because I am confident in my ability to frame one. I've framed a $80K ranch on a slab, a $8Mil, 10K sqft Centter hall and just about everything inbetween. And, if they could have waited a few months I would have gladly framed it for them.
Hey look Robert, I'm sorry for your hard luck with your children and health care issues. That's a horrible weight to be under and I can't even fathom how it feels to be in your shoes. I truly mean that. But I don't think it's fair you drag that into this conversation.
All I'm saying is that you belittle the trade by making statements such as that. Easy for you apparently. Maybe even easy for me, although I admit I still have to work it out on paper the night before so I feel comfortable going to work the next day and producing. But it's not easy for everyone.
Maybe if you stopped telling everyone how 'easy' your job is, you could get more than $3.50 a sq ft. No? The perception that everyone can do this stuff, because it's so easy, is part of the reason why wages are where they're at and part of the reason why GC's in many markets feel that they can dictate what it is we put in our pockets at the end of the week. It's also part of the reason why guys like us can't afford decent health care for our families after an honest days work.
I'm sorry for the 'smart guy' comment, it was probably uncalled for. But off the cuff statements like that really irk me. I don't just frame houses for a living, I frame houses because I love the trade, I love the never ending learning curve, and I love how I feel at the end of the day. If it were easy everyone would be doing it.
No hard feelings, I hope. And thank you for your service to our great nation. My best to you and your family.
No hard feelings.
I have tried selling the art of the trade. Unfortunately there are so many who learn just enough to get by and then strike out on there own. they never learn what thier skill is worth.
I have a cousin who lives in Mass. and I'm almost in shock to learn what a different atmosphere it is there than here. In my area there are a few builders who will let a foundation sit for months rather than pay more than $2.50 a foot. it's a mindset I would preffer not to do battle with.
In the past I've Identified something I do well and am able to sell for what I need make. Ironically purely by accident. Few people in my area can build stairs or install anything more complicated than a post to post rail system so the money is good and the competition almost non existant.
Don't fell bad about laying out on paper. I always try to lay it out on the Second floor before I lay out walls if I can. On the other hand. I believe that if you are going to put yourself out as a carpenter of any kind you need to master that trade. things like Bastard hips are something any framer on his own should at least be able to get thru. maybe not quickly if they don't do it all the time but get thru none the less. Apparently you feel the same. Wish lots more felt that way.
A lot of the difference of opinion on breaktime in general has to do with region. I can drive two hours to N.J and framers are treated much better. In my neck of the woods we're all lumped together as a bunch of dope smoking drunks in 15 year old vans who pick our help up at work release every morning.
We are starting to see more large complicated custom homes and If I decide to go the framing route I'll have no choice but to sell to that market.
In the last couple of years I've priced a few frames, in Nantucket, MA and Portland, ME--the average seems to be $10 to $11 a sq.ft. for a shell only.
We're in the other corner of the country, the Northwest. We're a developer/builder and build about 45 homes a year, both custom and spec.
The price per foot really depends on the plan. For a two story home we'd normally figure anywhere from $6.50 -$9.00sqft for main floor, and usually $1.75 per foot more for second story. If it is a roof design with a lot of stick framing, or overframing over engineered trusses, it can get more expensive than that. Things like large glulams to set, etc, can increase the price. I can look at a set of plans and know in a few minutes what the framing should cost. For most of our pursposes, for framing we mean up through roof sheathing, including subfascia and fascia, any skylights installed, all windows and exterior man doors installed. The majority of our floors are i-joists over crawls on the main.
On very simple ramblers, we usually figure about $4.50 per square foot on framing labor.
Thanks Beachbuilder, good info.
Average-ish costs in $$CT$$ are $10 give or take. In not so $CT$ they drop a bit, maybe down to $8.
Still, ensure apples to apples when the proposal goes out. "Framing" means different things to different framers.
Mongo,
Thanks for the info.,I was trying to get separate numbers for 1.floor framing 2.wall framing 3.roof framing.Again these costs were not for any specific building, rather a reference point for determining ballpark costs. If I have costs for the foundations, finishes, kitchens, bathrooms, roofing, siding, MEP, etc. the framing was just another component. These numbers are not meant to bid from, this is a different excercise.
I don't know nyone who breaks down their framing costs or bids into platforms, walls, and roof structures, so I can't offer you any more numbers.
Unless you want to figure $8-10 a square foot for the floors and the walls and roof are free.<g>
Two framing crews that I know well both eyeball the plans, then figure it'll take "X" days to frame and multiply that by their daily rate. Then they add in a few dollars for the weather forecast, a few for dormers or severely cut roofs, and a few more dollars for each time they say "what's this supposed to be" while they're eyeballing the plans.
It always seems to ballpark out at about $10 a foot.
One other guy I know does a full materials take-off then a bunch of number crunching. He comes in at around $10 a foot, too.
Gots to be a conspiracy.
Framers here make anywhere from $1.75 to $3.00 per square foot, depending on the builder. Most are in the lower range, the McMansion builders almost always select the lowest price.
A local builder here last year offered his framing crew $10,000 bucks to frame a 6000 sq ft house, not sure how he could afford to pay $1.66 sq ft......needless to say the framers passed....
If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Just another thought on the framing costs...the prices I told you about also include any interior walls, and cutting the 12/12 or 10/12 roofs as well..not many trusses used here. Most of these places are single story structures here, have only worked on 2 multi story units in 3 years....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Thanks Paul,
Let me ask you, how does that compare with your part of Upstate NY.
I'm going to have to check that out as I never framed (for a living) in upstate NY, these are Oklahoma City Metro prices I gave, but I've got some friends up there who frame and the like, so will check with them and get an answer to you.......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Okay TGNY, I got to ask you, just how do you see collecting various framing prices from all over east jabib like your doing going to help you with a conceptual estimate? It seems to me the numbers you're collecting are vague and round and while it's great that all these Breaktimers are chipping in info the grouping is hardly a valid statistical sampling.
If you really want to develop a conceptual estimate I would suggest you spring a few bucks and get a few cost books. Get one from HomeTechonline.com, one from Craftsman and one from R.S. Means and then average what you get from all those sources. Given the higher quality of their statistical sampling you'll be a lot better off in that regard that averaging the data that you'll collect here.
Plus it worthwhile to also keep in mind that SF pricing suffers from a ±15-20% variance and that ±15-20% is a standard deviation meaning an "average variance" so any one individual instance could be subject to a dramatically higher variance.
Ultimatly I say forget and ignore all this general SF princing nonsense and develop some of your own valid Unit Costs and use them to estimate. Pricing by the SF, or relying on anyone else's "estimate" of what the cost should be is a sure-fire way to end up working at Lowes in no time.
View Image
"Pricing by the SF, or relying on anyone else's "estimate" of what the cost should be is a sure-fire way to end up working at Lowes in no time."
Hey! You stole my line and just substituted "Lowes" for "Home Depot". Get your own quotes, buddy........... ;)
Bob
JH,
I have the books but I don't see how collecting information from actual framers is a bad thing - all information is good depends on how you use it. Some of these guys are qualifying their answers adequately enough. I would never rely solely on a source such as Means since those costs rarely reflect actual market conditions nor would I rely on one BT'ers cost as well, as you said this is a sampling. I just estimated a $6mil (construction cost) residence. The Means numbers weren't even close to the bid results. My estimate was within 4% of the bid number.Edit: I have done enough estimating over the years (pushing $20 billion), primarily commercial for alot of the large concerns in NYC. I am sure you may know what you are doing, but don't assume I don't either. And no, I doubt I will be working at Lowes or HD, but they have been my clients. Thanks for the lecture.Edited 9/16/2005 12:47 pm ET by TGNY
Edited 9/16/2005 12:49 pm ET by TGNY
So TGNY,... if you have all this tremendous wealth of experience and real empirical data at hand why are "wondering how you framers out there would price it". What exactly is your question then?
"I am sure you may know what you are doing, but don't assume I don't either. " Then don't ask such a ridiculously vague neophyte type question and people wont make those assumptions.
"Thanks for the lecture." Your welcome.
Just having fun with ya.
View Image
The question wasn't vague and I got answers.
Funny, when I ask a concrete contractor what he is getting per cy for foundations say in Katonah, NY, I don't seem to have trouble getting an answer. Or if I inquire with a steel erector what the cost per ton is in Manhattan, I can get that information. So I don't see what is so "neophyte" about asking the same for framing. You could do yourself a service and take a page from say Piffin or Mike Smith and learn to give advice with humility or not at all.
TG-
Your analogy to the steel erectors in NYC isn't as much of a straight comparison to wood-framing costs as it may sound.
Having estimated billions of dollars of work in the commercial arena myself, the difference is that all of the steel erectors in NYC (or NJ where I work) are union, and therefore their labor costs are the same per hour. While their overheads and productivity may vary from one to the other, if I asked three steel contractors for the current rate for steel, furnished and installed, provided I gave a good enough description of the project (say, a 20-25 story office tower with repetitive floor plates, 12-14PSF of steel, metal deck, simple floor plan), I'd get ranges from the three that wouldn't vary by probably more than 10%.
If I asked the same question of three wood framers here in NJ, I'd get numbers from $3/SF to $12/SF, and none of them would even have the same definition of what constitutes the "total SF" of a house. One would base it on the heated space ("I throw in the garage for free"- huh???), one would add in the basement SF to account for the floor framing above, and one would include all of the SF including the garage.
To make matters worse, they'd have labor costs varying from jack-leg $12/hour guys to $25/hour skilled carpenters. Throw in the fact that their overhead would vary greatly (and some of them still think they "have no overhead"), and the numbers aren't worth too much. That's one of the reasons I don't bother with estimating wood-frame construction anymore- it's a waste of time since the numbers vary so wildly based on who bids the project.
But, if the numbers you've gotten here give you the warm-and-fuzzy you need to do the pricing exercise you're going to do, go for it.
Bob
Bob, your explanation about framers is a very good reason to flee the framing market!
blue
I don't build ballparks!
>>But, if the numbers you've gotten here give you the warm-and-fuzzy you need to do the pricing exercise you're going to do, go for it.What is it with you guys, your egos sure get in the way.
Edit: directed to those who are giving me all the love here.Why is it so difficult for you to comprehend why I direct this question to the framers out there in BT world. How is that any different from me calling up a framing company and getting them to give me a cost over the phone, which I can and have gotten in the past and used the info. successfully. If an architect comes up with a conceptual design for a house and the owner wants more than a guestimate as to that cost, and you categorize, quantify and cost the different systems, it is the first phase of an estimate. Again, I repeat, this is not a bid. When the drawings are at a level that each respective trade can understand the scope, you start getting real numbers. Alot of the estimating I do is for government agencies, architects/owners and serve the purpose as an independant estimate. We are not trying to win the job, but to reflect current market conditions. If you have any incling how to estimate, surely this can't be news to you. Admittedly I concentrate in commercial markets and residential is trickier, hence the question here.Let's try this again. My apoligies if I did not make it clear the first time. This was addressed to the real life framers who care to answer the question, if you don't want to or cannot that is fine. See if these categories make it easier. I know there are many who don't break it down this far.1. What average sf costs would you charge for framing a floor deck - simple TJI construction with 3/4" plywood deck on let's say a 5000 sf house.2. What average sf costs would you charge for framing a hip and/or gable roof - 2 x 12 rafters 16" O.C. with 5/8" plywood sheathing.3. What average lf costs would you charge for framing exterior walls - 2x6 8'-10'h with 1/2" ply sheathing.4. What average lf costs would you charge for framing interior walls - 2x4.
Edited 9/16/2005 6:07 pm ET by TGNY
TG-
It's not an ego at all- I've just seen too many contractors make the mistake of asking for pricing information here, and the info they got was absolutely useless. I can only imagine how many of them went out of business using this info to price their work. Granted, you seem to know better than that, but most of the guys here are just so used to dealing with those who don't know how to apply the info they gather here that they get a little skittish.
Bob
Bob, I missed your response earlier. If it's not an ego thing than sorry if I am being too thin skinned (I don't believe I started with the sarcasm but anyways).
I hear what you are saying and agree for the most part, but let me ask you, in your estimating experience, how did you come up with costs for residential construction before you bailed out of that area. Since I came up through the trades I do use my own experience to flesh out what always seemed to be a nebellious area to price. It gained me respect with contractors because I wasn't just a bean counter anymore but someone who had actually done it and could speak their language. Unfortunately at a conceptual estimate, they may not have even brought on a structural engineer, therefore no framing plans. As the documents develop, and the complexity of the scope came to light, then things get tightened up in the next round. The conventional framing portions for the house I just estimated came in over $35/sf (and the exterior walls aren't even included in this, since they are not stick framed) and it really is not that complicated, so yeah, I know it varies. But there still was an average price coming out of the posts on this thread.
Hi TGNY,
Look, I'm not trying to jump on the bandwagon, just want to relay some useful information to you.
These guys are trying to tell you something, but you're not hearing it. I'm a framing subcontractor in the suburbs around Boston. The houses I frame average around $11.75/sq ft over the last two years, but I've built some that worked out around $8 and I've built one that was up around $16, and I made better money on a couple of the $8 homes.
By adopting maybe 1/4 of the philosophies these guys are trying to tell you, I've made some really great money in the last couple years and grown my business nicely. By keeping daily notes of what my crew and I produce I've gotten better and better at estimating new plans. But if I've learned anything, it's that every single one is different, and the patterns are tough to see. There's just too many variables, like weather, site conditions, roof complexity, floor layouts, plate heights, exterior trim details, etc.
I wish that I could just find a sq/ft magic number that worked for my company, but there just isn't any such thing. You want a number for lineal footage of walls? Ok, are they 2x4 or 2x6? What's the height? How many penetrations? Can I get my machine around the house to get the stock where it needs to be? Will these walls be built in January in NE? Will I need to shovel off the lumber piles every other day? What time of year? Will we be working 8 hr or 10 hr days due to daylight? Does the builder pay on time? Who is he using for a lumber yard? The one notoriously late with deliveries, or the punctual one.
I'm not trying to be cryptic, but all these things comes into play when I put a proposal together for a home.
These guys are trying to tell you that you're missing the big picture. You think it's their egos making waves. I gotta tell you, from where I'm sitting, it looks like your ego is the one getting bruised and that's the real reason for the conflict.
Just my two cents.
"By adopting maybe 1/4 of the philosophies these guys are trying to tell you, I've made some really great money in the last couple years and grown my business nicely."
Glad to hear we're having a positive effect on your business, Brian. Of course, I'm still waiting for the royalty check, though..... ;)
Bob
DP,
Thanks for the info. I understand there are lots of variables that affect price, unfortunately in the real world, decisons often have to be made long before the plans get to CD level where someone like yourself can bid on them. If you review the posts in this thread it seems safe to say that the high end of the average is $10 -$12 per sf. That information can be used for a conceptual estimate. Not too say I would even use that price, I would probably bump it up considerably from that, but at least I wouldn't go lower. This way when bid time comes around, the owner or agency has budgeted enough to fund the project. When I was building I could come up with an average cost based on my productivity and material cost. I built even further north, so snow was more often a factor than not.PS.
If you read BT enough it is pretty evident that the regulars seem to belong to a clique, so I don't expect you to come to my defense, but if you look back at the history of this thread, I sure don't understand your last paragraph. None the less thanks again for the info.
If you read BT enough it is pretty evident that the regulars seem to belong to a clique, so I don't expect you to come to my defense, but if you look back at the history of this thread, I sure don't understand your last paragraph. None the less thanks again for the info.
Fair enough... like I said, it's just my perspective. FWIW, I can't say I'm a member of any cliques, but I'm probably pretty much a regular lately. I've sat alone on the 'hot seat' here more times than I care to remember and there's more than a few other 'regulars' who certainly wouldn't mind if I faded away. But I have to tell you that every time I've sat on that hot seat, and my feathers had time to unruffle, I realized that I learned something valuable.
I appreciate you not flying off the handle at me for saying something you don't agree with though. You seem like a rational guy.
I've read some of your posts, you seem like a stand up guy, and the pics of you work do look good. Again thanks for the previous info. I hope you understand how it can (I stress can) be useful.
I dig your new truck BTW.
I love you man :-)
Right backatcha dude. Be a framer.
"If you review the posts in this thread it seems safe to say that the high end of the average is $10 -$12 per sf."You and I are not reading the same thread, apparantly. That price is more in the middle, and not the high end of average. I read the mean of the highs to be more like 14-16, especially considering your area, which leaves you doing a dis-service to both your customer and to the eventual contractor - something that architects constantly do when pricing work too low in the budgetary work. I only realized a few posts back that yuou are acting as an arcxhy in this question and that clarifys your thinking to me now.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
First of all - as I replied to you earlier - these numbers are not for Manhattan. Secondly there were only 2 numbers mentioned in this thread higher than $12. Thirdly, you still don't seem to know how I am using the numbers or in what capacity (and no I'm not using them as an "Archy").
So far no dis-service has been done to any of my clients, because I have always been fairly close to the bids and this little bit of polling here is just a form of research. I am not asking for people to comment on how I use the numbers, just simply what they are seeing in their business. PS The humility comment was actually in gratitude for your civil response's in past posts and directed to the smarta$$'s out there.
I know you are not in manhatten, but you are still faaaaaar from being in the cheapest part of the country to be building.I counted three higher numbers, not two. The fact you are missing that goes to prove my point that the reason we avoid such quotes is that people will hear what they want to hear and throw out the possibility of ending up with higher numbers, leaving the contractor actually quoting the job to look too high.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I stand corrected, I did not include my own post stating $35/sf, but that was an anomally which was not intended as part of this sampling.
sorry
I might have missed something above
I hate phone calls where people say how much a square foot
you give them a ball park
then show up and look at a drawing with so many corners at other then 90 or 45
it looks like a 3 year old on caffine had fun with an etch-a-sketch
you look at the drawing on a katchup stained napkin and chuckle
then they say
well hey what about this much a sq foot that you said and I need to start tomorrow
TG-
In response to your question, when I first started estimating residential work in the early 90's, I worked for a GC who self-performed all framing, trim, and interior finish work. We developed an extensive database of costs (in CEIA's old DOS program), and I therefore had a great handle on what "our costs" were.
Leter, when I was estimating on a consulting basis, I resurrected that database of cost/productivity info, and updated it to the present time. What I found was that I again knew what "our costs" would be using the level of subs and employees that we would utilize on projects. Invariably, though, either the customers would freak over how much the estimate was, or when the bids came in, there'd be such a wide spread it made the estimate seem invalid. This was due to the varying level of contractors out there, both in quality and price. After seeing this happen too many times, I pretty much gave up on doing residential estimating, since I got tired of explaining myself to justify the estimates.
With commercial work, I can get far more precise, since the subcontractor pool is more defined and plays within the same sandbox repeatedly. It's not uncommon to hit an estimate by 2-3%, even at the conceptual level (though with all the "force majeure" letters I've been getting faxed to me this week due to prices increases due to Katrina, I think many of the estimates are going to be worthless soon.....lol).
Bob
Lemmee try to explain this *with humility* if I can find some laying around here someplace...The reluctance to provide free 'ballpark' pricing exists anywhere because of past experiences most of us probably share. If the BP is on the low side, then when we see the plans and discover the actaul price needs to be 50% higher, we are suddenly "THE ENEMY" which does nothing for the prospects of having a congenial working relationship with the customer, should he become such.OTOH, if we BP too high to keep things safe, we are labeled rip-offfs from the start and never get a chance to see the plans to work from.Which is why I mentioned such a wide range of pricing. You might think that it would be no skion off my or anyone elses backs to go ahead and throw out a number for you to juggle, but the truth is that by doing so, whoever eventuially becom,es your framer is put in the same disadvatageous position we would individually put ourselves in. That would be a disadvantage to both you and him. You will need to start with a clean slate between you to doodle on, and not be prejudiced by what you think you hear here.This is not high ego respoinding that you are gathering. it is different guys from different perspectives, all saying pretty nuch the same thing - I would hate to have to compete agianst an internet entity prejudicing my clients. I would need to work harder to re-educate them before we could proceed on a decent footing.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
TGNY - The question wasn't vague and I got answers.
I didn't see anything of any real use in those answers. To quote Bob again "if the numbers you've gotten here give you the warm-and-fuzzy you need to do the pricing exercise you're going to do, go for it." No offense to the folks who were kind enough to answer you but I woudln't use that data for anything.
And TGNY just for you own information and edification when you ask a concrete contractor what he is getting per cy for foundations say in Katonah, NY the answer you will probably get will fall into one of three categories:
He or she will give you the price he or she actually does charge per CY for placing concrete which probably means they aren't really smart business owners when it come to figuring out pricing. (You can have two identical jobs in terms of total Cubic Yardage that have other issues that affect the placement so the costs would vary considerably) To use example from framing here are two identical floor 1000 sf floor plans. Do they both cost the same to frame? Would the same SF Framing Price apply to both?
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A concrete contractor who's knows what they are doing will perhaps give you a price range for the placement work they do.
They wont give you a price but will ask to look at the projects plans and or specs.
People call us up (builders, architects, and homeowners) and ask us how much our stairs cost. Should I tell them $4000 to $248,000?
"So I don't see what is so "neophyte" about asking the same for framing."
Read your post again and pretend for a moment that you don't know it's you that posted it and see if you sound like an experienced professional or a neophyte. And I should add that there was nothing in you profile to indicate that you had any professional experience too. Your question was so vague and is very common around here I am sure Bob read your post as if it was from a neophyte and when he made his "sure-fire way to end up working at Home Depot in no time" your ego was busied and you decided to be a smarta$$ rather than clarifying your question. Really read you post, How were we supposed to know you knew anything about construction that would set you off from all the other posts that come up here that ask the same question you did. That's why I added my Lowes comment. It was to get under your ego's skin again. Get the chip off of your shoulder and you might get somewhere.
I think your post #63032.26 was probably the question you should have asked in the first place. It's about Unit Cost estimating not SF estimating and might start to be of some real constructive use.
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Jerrald - I don't have a chip on my shoulder, just sometimes I get tired of the pedantic comments that are dished out here by those, who for whatever reason, seem to think they own this forum. I don't know (nor care) what experience both real or percieved you or Bob have. Nor do I have the time or desire to get into a pissing match with either of you. I coached my question naively on purpose so as not to color the answers and not to attract the attention of your sort. The question is intended as another form of sampling as previously discussed. A spreadsheet on the web does not impress me, ther are sooo many of them out there, that is why I get hired, because to many estimators rely on that as an empirical formula and often miss the forest for the trees. FWIW As for the missing info. in my profile, I apprenticed as a carpenter, became a contractor, have a B.Arch, and am presently a consultanting estimator among other things. And recently, just to get back into my carpenter's inner side, built my house by myself over the winter, which is what brought me to BT. So, I really don't need your blessing. If you want to discuss it further send me a private e-mail, otherwise don't waste my time.
I don't know but with your language it sure sounds to me like you still have that chip on your shoulder. Believe me I wont waste your time.
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I'm forgetting a lot of stuff here today....I wanted to tell you that those prices I told you about were for a "white guys" crew, not a crew of illegals....I don't know what they get for framing.....maybe I should have called it a "non illegals crew" instead.....got a call into a buddy of mine from up home...should have a definitive answer shortly for you....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....