Replies

1. 
   basswood | Feb 13, 2005 09:49pm | #1

   check out my post (54042.20) in the business section, it might help.

2. 
   cfd717 | Feb 13, 2005 09:50pm | #2

   I recently trimmed an entire house in suburban boston here is the pricing schedule I used install trim $35.00 per opening thats hang a prehung or trim window or opening . baseboard $1.00 lf this covered me when the homeowner chose 51/2" col. base. The Job had 2 oak staircase wich I priced per day rate 2 days each I usually sub for someone and dont deal with money very often so I polled several friends as to what to charge and this fell right in line good luck

1. 
   jocobe | Feb 13, 2005 11:51pm | #3

   Jerrald Hayes is gonna have an aneurism when he sees this thread! =8-)View Image

3. 
   bruceb | Feb 13, 2005 11:55pm | #4

   Gotta be more specific than " Mid-Atlantic region"

1. 
   jrnbj | Feb 14, 2005 07:08am | #12

   I know from reading this thread that you are looking for total job pricing, but for what it's worth a few years back a good trim carpenter in D.C. could bill out @ $25-$45 per hour for high end remodeling work....

4. 
   JerraldHayes | Feb 14, 2005 02:22am | #5

   jocobe - " Jerrald Hayes is gonna have an aneurism when he sees this thread! =8-)"

   I'll be okay the ones that make my head explode are when people want to either price a trim job based on the square footage of the house or when they come up with things like materials cost x 3 or whatever number they plug in. No logic in them. At least Oaktree is looking at his projects with a Unit Cost point of view.

   Oaktree- I'm sure I'm not going to be the one to harangue you about writing in all caps but that's generally considered bad form in online forums. It makes your post harder to read and it's equated with shouting. Save the caps usage until you really really want to emphasize something.

   As for estimating trim work forget about "I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO CHARGE/ OR WHAT IS "FAIR MARKET VALUE" ANYMORE. " and " I THINK MY $/LF IS OUTDATED". While you do generally want to estimate trimwork by the Unit whether ( that Unit is ####LF, SF, Ea. or Piece etc) and not based on the SF footprint of the project it's not very helpful or flexible to think in terms of $ per Unit . In giving a price your better off arriving at that price by thinking of it as: Labor Rate X Productivity Rate per Unit = Price. By productivity rate that is of course the time it takes to install a unit of the material your talking about.

   View ImageTo find some productivity rates you

   can with you might want to check out Jim Tolpins Finish Carpenter's Manual. W

   While it's just a good reference to around anyway for techniques at the end of each chapter he has listed what he feels are some of the productivity rates for those tasks are.

   View ImageI like the productivity rates that listed in the Craftsman National Renovation & Insurance Repair Estimator. Don't use the labor pricing since that's not going to be accurate for your particular case and situation.

   Now as for what Rate to charge as I often say you might want to download my freeware Excel spreadsheet (360 Capacity/PROOF/Indexed/Labor Allocated Markup spreadsheet) and read read Ellen Rohrs books How Much Should I Charge?: Pricing Basics for Making Money Doing What You Love and Where Did The Money Go?- Easy Accounting Basics for the Business Owner Who Hates Numbers.

   It occurs to me from something Basswood just said over in the discussion he referenced (What Should Determine Your Hourly Rate?) while you'll use your hourly rate in figuring out what your Unit Costs to install certain components of trim you should generally avoid working by the hour and even by the piece and instead develop comprehensive package estimates so your target clients don't get wrapped up in picking apart your pricing.

   Now all that said about Unit Costs in estimating a trim or architectural woodwork project thinking just in terms of those units is not enough. What I mean is while you may find that generally speaking .842 Labor Hours is a good figure for hanging and casing a pre-hung door there are doors and other project condition that can effect that number. For instance if you hanging a pre finished door that requires special handling that will take longer, same thing for a larger door that is heavier. Things like moving the doors from where they are stored on site to where they are going to be installed may also effect that figure so while you should develop a set of baseline or benchmark figures for what certain tasks take you should also keep a eye open for how you will need to modify those tasks at times and account for that time too. Back in June of 2002 in the discussion of a very simple small crown installation job I illustrated an example of what I mean by that that you may want to read (crown molding prices).

   And reprinting something I written here before I'll also add:

   The key to estimating trim is producing an accurate project takeoff. Think about what you need to include in your estimate.Did this GC give you a scope of work document to tell you just what he was looking for you to do? Finish carpentry includes such items as: doors and door frame finish hardware installation cabinets and shelving milled trim non-milled but exposed to view trim wall paneling stairs and stair railings And you need to takeoff for fasteners, biscuits, dowels, glues, putty, bondo etc. even if they aren't included on the plans and specifications you are looking at. Is the GC expecting you to supply all those materials, some of them, or none of them? If you are supplying the materials (maybe not the best idea if this is your first "real" trim project) then you need to get prices for the items in your takeoff from the various suppliers. Be sure that the time it takes you to perform the take-off and the the time it takes you to shop your materials list is included in your bid in one way or another (otherwise you are giving away your time for free). You also need to keep in mind what the probable state of completion (fabrication) of the items upon their arrival at the jobsite. In other words are the doors prehung or will you be assembling jambs and installing the door in place? Are the cabinets finished and ready to install or are they knock-downs that need assembly on site. Same thing regarding the stairs. Are they site built, a knock-down kit, or are they coming fully assembled and all you have to do is install them. And what about the railings? I think stairs are easy it the railings that are really difficult. Some items such as closet and bookshelves may come in part or pieces all ready to be installed or you may have to cut and fabricate them from materials on site. Having considered all the materials you now need to look at the labor involved. You need to both think of a labor cost related to each and every associated item on your takeoff and also: Unloading of materials from trucks, handling and temporary storage and protection Special tools equipment and scaffolding Handling and hoisting materials from storage to final position. (generally applies to stairs but can apply to other things too such as safes or large cabinets) Incidental associated items of work such as backing in partitions for the securing of cabinets and trim. Who is going to prime or seal the trim before installation?

   And as you develop more specific questions be sure to ask them here.

   ---

   View Image

   ParadigmProjects.com | Paradigm-360.com | Mac4Construction.com

1. 
   cleanwater | Feb 14, 2005 04:05am | #6

   I thank you for your feedback, references and advice.     

   & my CAPS off to ya!  Didn't mean to shout.  I see you have been 'round & around with this one before.    Say you wouldn't wanna walk the bid with me would ya?....I won't shout and I'll buy ya a beer!

   I must admit I didn't ask very accurate question. 

   I was really just trying to get a sense of what some DC area builders are paying trim carpenter sub's for say a 6k sf  "custom home" (i.e. the tall ladder foyer, 9' ceilings w/3pc. crown, 2pc chair,tall baseNcap, prehung doors, curved walls/rails some stick some prefab,  MB trays, shelvesNpoles,custom to buidler grade cabinets with crown & shoe,  don't do hardware)  and the comperable scale for the production homes and down to smaller town houses. 

   All that said I don't really think I can get an exact estimate from a formula, but it is nice to measure up now and again and see whats what.

   I will do my own material take-offs twice and make notes of "slow zones" and expected extras or hidden gotchas.   Its all a calculted guess and some luck for me so far.  As for me Ive been out of it for a time but I still prefer to work for piece work vs T&M.  Lifes a gamble.   If possible I will try to get one house on a trial basis then get a feel before I dive in to deep.

   ~Will~

   "if ya always do what you always did you will always get what you always got" 

    

1. 
   Lawrence | Feb 14, 2005 04:34am | #7

   Just watch the hardware specs... I did a house full of doors for special client last year and got burned by portugese hardware... 43 pcs/lockset and hinges that don't come apart... Whada nightmare. Ohhh and the floors were laid early so you had to cut downstairs-out front and kick your shoes off carrying solid core doors.

   See the hardware sample first. Wasn't even english instructions.

   Gotta level with you... when I gave them the revised bill they lost special client status.

   L

    GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!

1. 
   JerraldHayes | Feb 14, 2005 05:02am | #9

   Lawrence - "...Ohhh and the floors were laid early so you had to cut downstairs-out front and kick your shoes off carrying solid core doors." Geez, been there and done that. But we wear the slip on booties and never take our shoes or boots off. To easy to get injured in bare feet.

   ...And of course like you pointed out you charge for that kind of inconvenience since it does make that task take longer.

   View Image

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1. 
   Lawrence | Feb 14, 2005 05:18am | #10

   People just can't comprehend what wastes our time Jerrald... multiply a job x3 and they get a clearer picture don't they?

   Those hinges were the worst... just try not tightening the screws in on the 3rd shot. Most of the doors I hung in 2...(existing openings). Hinges without removable pins... never seen that before. Both the top and bottom cap unscrew... you obviously need some kind of press to get the pins out...

   It was a job I would have walked away from under any normal circumstances and in hindsight...  should have.

   L

    GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!

2. 
   PhillGiles | Feb 14, 2005 08:57am | #13

   Don't you just use a pin-punch (like a thin drift pin) to get it started, and then it practically falls out ?.
   Phill Giles
   The Unionville Woodwright
   Unionville, Ontario

2. 
   JerraldHayes | Feb 14, 2005 04:55am | #8

   Yup Will we have all been round and round with this before but that doesn't mean the topic is finished and the final word has been said so fire away with any questions you have. There are lots of good minds here with thoughts and ideas on this.

   As for what builders in the DC are paying for trim subs I couldn't tell ya at all. Our work is in the suburbs of NYC, Westchester County NY and Fairfield Country CT. However I think I can say something in general about builders though. There are some out there who think price is everything and who will ask for a price per square foot price to finish their project s either because they are using that number to shop you against other subs or because they know a square foot price can be manipulated and exploited in their favor. They are snakes.

   Then there are the builders who look for and appreciate things beyond price such as your adherence to a schedule, how you keep the workspace, avoid creating situations that call for rework and are willing to pay more for that kind of dedicated professional service.

   I would say that that you should generally try and avoid spec builders and look for custom builders to work for in that I would think there would be more spec builders looking to cut their costs in any way possible but that's purely an assumption on my part. I my entire career in this business I have actually never even worked on the construction of a spec home. That is when it was first being built. I've been there when they were remodeled but I have never worked on a spec house under construction.

   This builder who wants to work with you what kind of home is he building spec or custom? And why is he looking to work with you?

   "All that said I don't really think I can get an exact estimate from a formula, but it is nice to measure up now and again and see whats what."

   Sure you can. You've outlined the tasks and what you need now are the quantities that go with those things that you described. I guess I'll say this in that is sort of like your not recognizing that you've got the first part of you take-off done with the list you set up. When new guys tell me they know how to estimate for regular molding but don't know what to do for complicated three piece moldings they often don't realize that the answer is right there in front of them and see that it's the cost of single piece three times. What you have to just have to figure it the times for those tasks, the quantities, and what your rate is and then your done. That's a little bit of work but once you've done it the only part of that task that you'll have to do for the jobs that come after that is refigure the quantities.

   Getting the productivity rate and your labor rate down pat just helps reduce your risk and helps make sure you've got everything covered.

   View Image

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3. 
   win1 | Feb 14, 2005 06:37am | #11

   oaktree, dont think your question was out of line . The per opening/hole price is good. 30-40$ per opening is about right unless you have a bunch of builtup trim. Base trim and stairs need to go by the ln/ft depending on profiles. I live on the west coast and we have to include setting appl. which range anywhere from 50$ to 100$/ea. boxing skylights 175$-250$. Cabs. 55$-75$ / box