I am 28 yrs old. I’ve been framing for the last 8, I’ve done concrete forming for one year and trim and cabinets for another year. When I was 20 and started framing, it was new, the challenges were so extreme, from never being on more than a step ladder to standing on 2×4 walls. Building houses from nothing into something, it was perfect for me. I’ve had my own company for just about six years now, I still enjoy it, I like just about everything about it. I’ve been dealing with chronic back pain for almost two years now. I’d like to start doing some other things, I’d like to do my own additions, and renovations. I’m still getting lots of leads, but it’s painfully obvious that I’m new to this. I can’t even give a ball park figure. I don’t need to know overnight but this is something I’d like to work towards. Has anyone been in this boat before? can you give me any advice as to what my first move should be. I’d appreciate it more than you’d know, Thanks, Nick
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Nick,
I've been in a very similar position. So have a lot of others on BT. In fact, there are a lot of good threads to be found here on estimating and pricing. Use the advanced search feature to bring up those discussions.
Are there any particular problems you've had? It's a pretty large subject, you know.
What size new jobs are you trying to price?
On renovation work, when there was a lot of things which could not be predicated, I often worked on a time and materials (T&M) basis. That's not as lucrative as reno's can be but it's a good way to avoid pricing problems while keeping the home owners happy.
Just make sure that your hourly rate accounts for all of your costs and allows for a decent profit on your own labor.
Edited 11/29/2007 10:04 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Hudson Valley Carpenter - "On renovation work, when there was a lot of things which could not be predicated, I often worked on a time and materials (T&M) basis. That's not as lucrative as reno's can be but it's a good way to avoid pricing problems while keeping the home owners happy."
I think you can very certainly still work those tough reno jobs on a fixed price basis provided your up front about possible hidden costs with your clients and have the correct language in your contract agreement as to what those hidden conditions might be (in other words this is what is covered by the contract price and this is what is not covered by the contract price).
What that often means however is when your client's tell you they have a fixed $100,000 budget you can't write them a fixed price contract for a $100,000 and expect them to be happy when they pay another $50,000 for the hidden problems. You instead give them a fixed price for a much smaller scope and scale of project for let's say $65,000 and have them keep $35,000 dollars on hand for the additional work change orders you anticipate will arise.
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I think your working hypothesis is good, particularly if your price is based on "worst case scenario" according to your experience with similar aged homes in the same condition.
The problem for someone who's a newbie to reno work is that he doesn't have that kind of experience to draw upon, so any attempt to estimate is going to be the very UNreliable "best guess scenario".
That kind of guessing can lead to serious errors and severe depression. I mean...who enjoys dirty, heavy, smelly jobs where none of the old stuff works well with modern materials and every little task takes four times as long to accomplish?
When you discover that you've screwed the pooch on the price and will be struggling with "this old disaster of a house" for another month, without income, it's damned difficult to even drag your butt out of bed, much less paste a smile on your face and go back to work on a house which seems to mock you and your efforts at every turn.
That's why I was always happy to sacrifice some potential profits on reno jobs and get paid every week, T&M.
No matter how poorly I might've done, according to my previous optimistic view of the current situation, I could still smile because I'd made an honest effort, I'd learned something new about renos and gotten paid for every minute of my time.
The one BIG thing to avoid on T&M work is allowing the HOs to corner you about how long something will take. They'll always ask, I mean every chance they get, but I'd just shake my head and tell 'em that if I knew the answer I wouldn't be doing the job at such a modest hourly rate. I tell them that we're both in this together and I'd also invite them to stay home, watch me work and lend a hand any time they felt inclined to do so. I was always open and sincere about that too.
At times there was some minor grumbling after such a suggestion but only one family took me up on that offer and they didn't last too long. Three of them spent the same time painting one room, that it took me to paint two others by myself.
They were much more respectful after that experience. Whatever works.
Edited 11/30/2007 6:55 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Hudson Valley Carpenter - "I think your working hypothesis is good, particularly if your price is based on "worst case scenario" according to your experience with similar aged homes in the same condition."
Yeah it takes a while to get that experience built up where you can gauge that "worst case scenario" (like how old are you and I) but I think there are ways for the neophytes to cope and deal with that. In fact while I not really a fan of using the data from the estimating data books but that is a scenario where they do come in handy.
And for the contractor that gives that $65,000 estimate with the $35,000 contingency plan they only need to be exactly correct on the portion of the work covered by the $65,000 fixed price. If they only use $18,000 of the contingency the owner will be thrilled and may even ask for for some extras since they haven't used up their budget and were the contractor to miss on hidden condition work having it cost $40,000 I don't think the owner client can be too upset knowing the contingency estimate was only $5,000 off putting them only 5% over their starting budget for the whole project.
I often say most of contracting is just doing a good job of managing expectations.
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I agree with every idea you're proposing, especially that part about managing expectations. That's why I included the advice about avoid time frames when working T&M.
The only reason that I wouldn't advise the OP to contract a reno job at this point is that he may need to do one of them at an hourly rate that will keep him solvent and sane while he's learning the skills, methods and techniques required to become a knowledgeable renovation contractor.
I'll have to admit that I never felt that I'd really learned all the things I needed to know about renos but that's the nature of the game. There's always something peculiar to discover in old houses.
I really appreciate all the input here. I guess to answer some questions I usually charge/ job. I will review drawings and submit a price based on labor only, materials are payed for buy the g.c or home owner. I have been fortunate enough to find a few generous customers to pay me t&m, b/c they know I can do the work and trust that I won't rip them off. I don't have any employees anymore, just a partner. I have lots of leads, I just don't have the experience pricing.
Last weekend I was meeting with a couple interested in finishing their basement, they seemed to be 'my type' of customers, so I told them I have always been a sub, and don't have much experience pricing. They seemed to be o.k with that, I took some measurements I am going to make some preliminary sketches to present to them before pricing.
They were gracious enough to tell me what other contractors had been doing (not quoting) but essentially the other guys have been walking in. Spitting out a number and thats it, they didn't even know what they were getting for that price. The one contractor said he only used one type of toilette, one model of vanity, on shower ect, and said trust me you'll like it. I do have some insight now why I'm getting stuck getting these jobs. I'm not sure how these guys are quoting with out even knowing what these people want. Oh well, maybee I'll figure it out someday.
I'd like to get into doing more trim, hardwood flooring, cabinets ect. Just something a little different from day to day. My back is hurt from repetetive lifting and bending. I never really had any problems until I tripped at the cottage and pulled something trying to regain my balance. Thats another thing about framing, is trying to carry joists around in the mud, I'm 28 today and officially to old for that. Anyways I'm off to work. Thanks guys.
Nick
Here is an Excel spreadsheet I use to figure basements.
This is for a hypothetical 40' x 28' basement. All labor # are just quickly punched in.
Put the LF measurements in the yellow cells and the program's gray cells figure alot of the materials for you. Don't enter #s in the gray cells.
You still have to enter doors and what not.
Whenever you have a material on the left side of the sheet then write out the labor operation on the right side of the sheet. Experience is the only way to know the # hours it takes to do a certain operation (ie hang sheetrock).
The bottom of the worksheet is the bathroom section. The totals will automatically be added to the upper worksheet.
I need to add a section for painting. This is still a work in progress.
I have never done a full basement with this sheet yet. But I have done single rooms, suspended ceilings and such and it works well.
When you see this on breaktime you can copy it to your computer. Have a blank Excel sheet open, highlight the whole sheet, press control c, then go to your blank sheet, in the top left hand corner press control v.
I am going to try to add Craftsman's Estimating #s to the sheet to check myself, but I haven't done that yet.
Just play with the sheet until you see what it will do for you and save a copy.
Take care of the back. You probably need to see a chiropactor. I was bullet proof until about my early 40's. I didn't know what a ache or pain was. You can't afford to have a bad back.
If you have questions, then just post.
Rich
Thank you for posting that excel spread sheet. Ideally this is what I had been hoping to work towards, with experience of course. I just need to assign values to everything for time, materials ect. Thanks I will try this out and compare it against on of my quotes done the painfull way. I like this method because it's on excel so I can track how close I am to making the money I want to, and see where my figures need to be adjusted. I really appreciate that. P.s If you have been having back aches I find I get the most relief from acupuncture, I go in every two weeks for an hour and up to twice a week when the pain is bad. I got fast results, that seemed to last. When I don't go I can barely stand up in the morning, it's been quite effective for me.
Nick
I have a strong back and a weak mind.
I am trying a new concept in spreadsheets. I do them the old way then on a 2nd sheet I have materials and labor from National Insurance and Repair Estimator. This way I can check myself. I still have to line item cost the job because each job is unique and quircky. You can't always pigeon hole a or SF price a job.
The only worksheet I have done that way is for vinyl siding. I needed to start with something simple. I will post a copy.
You will have to get updates on material prices for that worksheet.
Nick
You will find more Excel sheets on the thread " How do You speed Up Estimating".
Do a search, you will find it.
Rich
Reno's are a different ballgame when it comes to pricing v. new construction. Besides figuring the cost to do what it is that needs to be done, you have to know the probability and cost of the unknowns. What will it take to alter the existing to be able to produce the new.
This takes either a hell of alot of luck and insight or years of experience.
Of course you can fall back on the often used (to the clients dismay) "I couldn't really see it until we opened it up".
Knowing how things are usually put together does aid in your background, but be warned that those that have touched the structure b/4 might not have done it "that way".
Best of luck in gathering the knowledge.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
My math skills are escaping me.
You seem to be implying that you started your business after two years of framing.
I'm going to be very impressed if you tell me you started a framing business.
What business have you been in for 6 years?
FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
I started carpentry at 18, as an apprentice for my grandfather, he loved to show me the ins and outs of hand tools, how to sharpen a handsaw, dovetailing with chisels ect. All fun stuff, not always useful but it can make you seem smart from time to time. I worked for my uncle the following year, we did mostly trim work. I formed concrete at 20 years old for a company called North America Construction, I quit after a year my only challenge there was dealing with my loud mouth foreman. When I turned 21 I started framing, At six months before I turned 23 I started my framing company with my best friend. We've been doing that ever since. I like it but it's killing my body. It's kind of a shame to get a really good handle on something and then give it up. I always loved framing roofs the most, I studied books such as precision framing, the efficient carpenter, Roof Cutters bible, Framing roofs, and The book from JLC about framing roofs. I've picked apart every way I did every thing in favor of finding new and better ways to improve speed and accuracy. I was able to work on many different jobs, some much cooler than others. I've always liked your posts as blue eyed devil. I take it you have a very similar approach to me. "Save time where you can Spend it where you must" I think I've attached some pics of one of my favorite jobs up in our 'cottage country'
Beautiful country-beautiful framing
keep up the great work-My idea of heaven
Greg in Connecticut
I remember my first framing job.
I had to leave because of back trouble.
Guy in charge of the job told me if I came back, there was gonna be trouble.
Seriously, back problems in your 20's? Maybe look for another line of work.
With all spirit of help,
skipj
JLC awhile back did a very good article on ballpark kitchen remodel estimating. You should check it out.
I don't know if JLC did one, but I do know FHB did, I think about Fall of 2006. Pretty detailed too.
Nick
Sounds like you are working for a big builder who lines all the jobs up for you and he determines how much you get paid. You have your own company because he doen't want to have employees. Do I have it right?
Do you have employees?
I have been in your shoes. Add the farm crisis of the 1980's when no one in our area had work.
We have a good thread going at "How do you speed up estimating" that is worth a good read from start to finish.
You could try downloading Craftsman Nat. Insurance Remodeling and Repair.
Here is a underlayment tearout and replacement for an insurance job. I did this to check myself. When the Nat. In. Estimator pops up, my estimate is on the bottom. You will have close the top sheet (little close x), to see mine. I am still new to the Craftsman.
And my own worksheet on Excel. I hope this helps.
Rich
Edited 11/30/2007 9:21 am ET by cargin
I was in a similar position when I started. I remodeled rentals property for myself so time was not and issue. What I did was started timing myself on each task and making notes of it. I wasn't as efficient as I worked a few hours each evening but it still gave me an idea. I also search my memory and remembered tasks that I might have done on a weekend and could recall my approx. start and stop time.
That information combined with a few underbids really helped me get a handle on it. It really is an experience thing as what you specialize in will dictate part of it. DanT
From: DanT - "I was in a similar position when I started. I remodeled rentals property for myself so time was not and issue. What I did was started timing myself on each task and making notes of it. I wasn't as efficient as I worked a few hours each evening but it still gave me an idea. I also search my memory and remembered tasks that I might have done on a weekend and could recall my approx. start and stop time."
That's exactly what I did too. In fact I've been cleaning out my basement this past month and I was going through some old boxes of stuff and found several of the little notebooks I used to carry around in pocket recording task times and other notes back when I was still in college! There a little bit faded and hard to read nowadays but they made me grin to read them again.
I one of the added benefits I have found over the years about the compulsive habit of writing down task times is that act of writing them down seems to add to and build up that portion of our memory we all think of as 'innate' experience. I think you might have been alluding to just that with your comment "It really is an experience thing as what you specialize in will dictate part of it."
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I think excessive optimism is the number one desease in our profession. You look at a job and think, "I can do that in four hours." At that moment, you're not thinking about trips to the supply house, set-up, time-devouring details of the job, clean-up, billing, etc. When you finish the job in two days, you wonder where the time went and how you're going to pay the bills.
To avoid or at least keep this desease under control, get a logbook and fill it in every day. This way, you can track the actual time you spend on every job you do. It might not help you on the present job but it can be very helpful on future jobs.
To paraphrase your post: "Optimism is the curse of the working classes." ROFL.
It's only that funny because what you said is so true. Fits my M.O. perfectly. It took me many, many repetitions of the same task to get realistic about how long it actually required to accomplish.
Edited 11/30/2007 2:18 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
It took me many, many repetitions of the same task to get realistic about how long it actually required to accomplish.
Reminds me of something I heard the other day:
Success is the result of good judgement. Good judgement is the result of experience. Experience is often the result of bad judgement.
Bowz
Mudslinger - "
I think excessive optimism is the number one desease in our profession. You look at a job and think, "I can do that in four hours." At that moment, you're not thinking about trips to the supply house, set-up, time-devouring details of the job, clean-up, billing, etc. When you finish the job in two days, you wonder where the time went and how you're going to pay the bills."
That's for sure. That's a real good point to bring up.
Another form the 'excessive optimism disease" sometimes take is the "I really want (or need) this job syndrome" and skip the estimating cost routine altogether and give the potential client a price you know will land you the job and they you end up paying for it over and over again. Literally.
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From: Nick25 - "I've had my own company for just about six years now, I still enjoy it, I like just about everything about it. I've been dealing with chronic back pain for almost two years now. "
Ah,... that's not good. To what do you attribute the back pain to? An injury? Bad form (like bad lifting techniques) or something else. Better think about taking care of that before it gets worse. Recovery takes longer and longer the older you get.
"I'd like to start doing some other things, I'd like to do my own additions, and renovations. I'm still getting lots of leads, but it's painfully obvious that I'm new to this. I can't even give a ball park figure. I don't need to know overnight but this is something I'd like to work towards."
Well that's certainly evidence of some smart thinking on your part because you very certainly can't pick it up overnight.
"Has anyone been in this boat before? can you give me any advice as to what my first move should be. I'd appreciate it more than you'd know, Thanks, Nick"
What's the first move? Since you said you've been in business for yourself for six years now can I assume you've been working on a T&M basis all along??? If so the first thing you have to do is make sure your hourly rate is the correct and really doing the right job for you (covering all your fixed and variable overhead costs). You need to have the rate down right because when you start to estimate project tasks you'll figure out the labor and material requirements for the task and multiply the labor hours by that rate. So if that not right you only be making things worse as you take on the risk of bidding projects.
If you're wondering about your rate there's a book I often mention here entitled How Much Should I Charge?: Pricing Basics for Making Money Doing What You Love that will help you with that and beyond that I have an Excel based workbook you can plug you number into to help you set that rate (The Capacity Based Markup Worksheet aka the PILAO Worksheet). In fact you'll find those and a bunch of other helpful resources on a blog page I've written called: My Suggested Syllabus and Texts for for a Hypothetical Contracting 101 Class.
Before I go on to how to look at projects and break them down into their component parts for estimating why don't you tell us where you stand in regard to having an hourly rate set up. Also it would help to know do you have any employees of your own? How many? Are you thinking with these new types of projects you want to get into that you'll do the work in-house or will you be using sub-contractors?
Let us know and we can move on from there.
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"I can't even give a ball park figure."
can U guess break down each step of a project into the various phases than need to be done? Know each and every step?
can U then guess aprox how long each phase ... and even each part of each phase ... would take U to complete?
if so ... then my "that'll take about-a" estimating plan may be worth a try.
I do most remodeling ... I also sub trim/tile/cab installs ... most of the sub work turns into turnkey kitchens and baths ... as I upsell my remodeling background.
anyways ... I know this works for me .... for remodeling.
not sure if it translates to other types of work.
I simply walk thru the job to be done ...
like say a basement remodel.
and think to myself ...
"layout" ... that'll take a day.
"foam" ... that'll take a day.
framing ... "plates" ... that'll take a day.
walls .... that'll take 4 days ... and 4 days is almost a full week ...
and knowing myself ... I can certainly stretch 4 days into a full week ...
so walls is 5 days.
etc.
in my world ... there is no such thing as a "half day".
any time I think "that'll take a half day" ... one full day is written down.
unless ... the very next catagory ... is a half day also ... with similar tools ... then they're combines ... but doesn't happen too often.
and like I said ... 4 days is rounded up to be one full week.
as I'm walking thru ... I'm also figuring out things on a weekly basis.
I simply walk thru ... and build it in my mind ... then figure out what I'll get done in a full week.
my method is only broken down into full days and full weeks.
a day can be 6 hrs ... and some days are 12.
but I decide what I can get done in a day ... and go from there.
then ... simply add up the days and or weeks ... multiply by your "hoped for" daily rate ... and there ya go.
I also add "fluff" between phases.
sometimes the rounding up takes care of it ... but if nothings been added in ...
I add a day here and there ... trust me ... U will be working that "free day".
I also like to get my mechanicals subs in as early as possible. Get their numbers set as much as possible ... then add my percent on top of their estimates ... after I round them up ... 'cause it's remodeling ... and they will find something to spend that round up on.
Not too techinical ... no fancy spread sheets ... but there's nothing better than taking all the time U need to walk around that project and build it ... step by step ... in your head ... then break that down as much as possible ... and take a good honest guess at how long each and every phase will take you to complete.
and now is not the time to be optimistic!
if U think 3 to 4 days ... write down 5.
and tell the customer 5 to 6.
and when it turns out to be 7 ... no one is that pissed at ya.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff
good advice
Nick read this
"and now is not the time to be optimistic!"
Get this into your head.
Sometimes I wish I could.
Rich
yeah .... me too!
thanks for making it big and blue!
maybe I'll even remember it now.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I guess where I get lost is materials, I don't have enough experience buying them. I could give labor only estimates fairly easily. I just find there to be so many un knowns in these projects. I think my competition has done similar jobs that they can base a number on. Some of these people expect me to walk in and ball park a 2nd floor addn. and call back to give me hell when my actual quote is 10,000 more than my ball park (On a 150,000 dollar job) Maybe those are the clients I don't want anyways. I've actually been to high on most of my quotes. A few people have said they would like to use me but can't afford me, or were maybe a expecting it to cost less. I used to spend my summers in Pittsburgh, I'm not sure where it was a big old house, very high ceilings and gargoyles in the corners, on a hill(which is a great deal of pgh. I know.) My aunt and Uncle used to live out there maybee you knew them (Joking).
Ballpark estimates pertain to their job. Why not try an end around-tell them that other projects have been in the blank to blank range. "I'd need to do a closer cost study to narrow it down to your project".............and remember when doing the "from/to" guess, not to be too low on the "to".A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/