Replies

1. 
   omaha | Feb 12, 2006 08:31am | #1

   Try this link:  http://www.usg.com/navigate.do?resource=/USG_Marketing_Content/usg.com/web_files/products/prod_details/Sheetrock_Brand_First_Coat_Primer.htm#top

   I have never used the First Coat but according to the site above, a topcoat is all that is needed after the First Coat application.  Hope that helped.

2. 
   DonCanDo | Feb 12, 2006 09:53am | #2

   It took a bit of "googling" to figure it out, but the binder in First Coat is vinyl acrylic, which is just another name for polyvinyl acetate or PVA.  PVA is basically white glue and is the binder used in most interior paints and primers.

   I've never used First Coat and I'm sure it works just fine.  But there's probably nothing "special" about it that makes it a superior primer for drywall.  I've used a variety of primers, all with about equal effect.  With the exception of some really cheap primer I bought at Rickel a while ago.  Well, I'll never buy anything there again!

   -Don

3. 
   AaronRosenthal | Feb 12, 2006 10:04am | #3

   I use Sherwin Williams Qualitycoat. Thick, made for new drywall/filler, and not very expensive.

   Quality repairs for your home.

   AaronR Construction
   Vancouver, Canada

    

4. 
   mccarty12 | Feb 12, 2006 02:06pm | #4

   I use First coat all the time with good success. It seems to hide the difference between the board and the mud better than the other primers I was using.

   
   

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   Edited 2/12/2006 6:10 am ET by McCarty12

5. 
   BossHog | Feb 12, 2006 03:01pm | #5

   I think USG first coat is a good product. I'd definitely recommend it.

   Then just regular paint over that.

   Men are Like handguns
   Keep one around long enough and your gonna want to shoot it.
6. 
   Zano | Feb 12, 2006 03:24pm | #6

   I drywalled a house a few years ago and primed it with USG First Coat.  When the builder mailed me the final check he included a note which read "the painter who has been painting for 25 years said this is the best primer and his work never looked this good".

   Use 2 coats of the First Coat and one coat of paint and you will never have a better painting job as it acts as a skim coat over new drywall.

1. 
   jimparksjr | Feb 12, 2006 07:11pm | #8

   I tested one room with First Coat then a PVA primer then 2 coats of color and it turned out great but it sounds like I can skip the PVA primer.  Is that true?

1. 
   IdahoDon | Feb 12, 2006 09:11pm | #9

   I'm constantly surprised at the amount of press the PVA primers get.  They are a thick primer that hides irregularities and joints in new sheetrock, but there's nothing special about them other than they can build up thickness quickly for not a lot of $$.

   Millions of square feet of walls have been primed with nothing more than flat wall paint without problems other than the need for an additional coat or so.  High build primers are quicker and if we're talking business, then sure, it's a money matter, but there isn't anything special about them that absolutely positively has be be used or the top coat will fall off the wall.

   If the tape/texture is done well I've used nothing but two coats of flat white interior paint and will continue doing so, even after trying PVA.

   Good painting,

   Don 

   Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

1. 
   davidmeiland | Feb 12, 2006 09:17pm | #10

   You mention texturing. If the walls will have a sprayed texture then they should be primed first, then textured.

2. 
   Zano | Feb 13, 2006 02:55am | #12

   First Coat supposedly has the PVA in it.  The main important factor in a good drywall job and consequently the paint job is the primer and not the paint.  The First Coat especially with 2 coats backrolled acts as a skim coat over the entire wall.  Problems arise if a good primer is not used, only paint is, is that you are painting on two different types of surfaces.  The compound is smoother then the sheetrock paper..what you want to do is prime and then paint over one type of surface and the First Coat and I surmise the Builders acts as a skim coat.  The best one is Tuff-Hide by USG, you can only spray it and on ceilings no need for paint..the stuff is awesome!

   Try one room with 2 coats of First Coat and sand it lightly after the the first coat and then only one coat of paint and then tell us what you think.

   I have an article from American Painting Magazine from 1996 which explains all this.  I tried to get a link to it but to no avail.  Perhaps when I rehook my scanner I will scan it for you.

1. 
   stinger | Feb 13, 2006 06:09am | #13

   1996 is before SW came out with their Builders Solution product.  The coatings technology had not advanced to that stage yet.

   IMHO, the USG product First Coat is about like skimcoating your entire gypboard surface area with watered down mud.  Your paint will look uniform, versus painting over walls of gypboard paper fields with mudded seams, where the sanded mud flashes through.

   But the USG product Tuff Hide is a surfacer, going beyond what their First Coat will do.  It makes for a uniform substrate, in terms of permeability, and does some leveling.

   SW did an even better job in formulating a primer-surfacer, with their Builders Solution, than USG did with Tuff Hide.

7. 
   stinger | Feb 12, 2006 04:14pm | #7

   It is more expensive, but the Sherwin Williams product "Builders Solution" yielded me much better results.  And I have used USG's First Coat.

   With everything cleaned and ready, the SW-BS goes on, gets backrolled, and you are ready for finish.  No primer required.

   The SW-BS is scary to work with at first.  It gets sprayed on heavy, using a big tip.  I cannot remember the wet film thickness right now, but it is up there.  When backrolled, it will look quite bumpy and textured.  You'll think, "Omigod, what did I do?"

   But wait.  Give it time to do its thing.  It will level out, tighten up, and give the flat base you want.

   Go here to see some info: http://www.sherwin-williams.com/pro/sherwin_williams_paint/sherwin_williams_paints/interior_paint/pdfs/SW_BuildSol_IntPaint.pdf

   
   

   ---

   Edited 2/12/2006 8:20 am ET by Stinger

1. 
   RW | Feb 12, 2006 11:03pm | #11

   You backrolled it?

   Never done that. Spray a lot of Builders. Wet film thickness on walls you can get about 15-17 before you're in jeopardy of sags. Ceilings more like 25. Can says use a 525 tip but I like 521 better.

   Next time you use it try a wall without backrolling. Just put it on in two crossing passes and let it sit. When its dry, like next day, just walk over it quick with a pole sander and see if you don't like the end result better."A bore is a man who, when you ask him how he is, tells you." -Bert Taylor

8. 
   rasconc | Feb 13, 2006 08:56am | #14

   Not a painter or rocker by trade, but do remodeling and repair.  Did my own house (125 boards or so pro hung and taped) and some fair sized other jobs.  I first used PVA on my place and was really surprised.  At that time HD had the 5 gal for about 22 bucks.  I probably have rolled or sprayed about 60 gal of it and still like it. 

   Last few small jobs I used a "vapor barrier" primer I got at True Value with good results. 

   I would doubt any need to do PVA and First Coat, seems redundant unless you just like to do two coats of primer.  Last one I did I went ahead and had the Vapor Barrier" primer tinted to get close to the top coat.  It did not mix the same color as the base mix but covered well. 

   I try to do PVA and two coats of final paint.  That second coat takes very little paint and takes very little time considering the quality it adds.

1. 
   Lateapex911 | Feb 13, 2006 01:25pm | #15

   Anyone use BIN 1-2-3??

   I have, and it seems fine, but I haven't the broad base knowledge i would like to have.Jake Gulick

   [email protected]

   CarriageHouse Design

   Black Rock, CT

1. 
   Mooney | Feb 13, 2006 06:44pm | #16

   The viynl primer and surfacer are the two topics in reality in this discussion. Its not really changing from that fact.

   The different products are doing things a little differently but the principles are the same or with out one of them.

   The vinyl primer is truly a drywall primer and anything else thats applied thicker is a surfacer .

   Stinger probably explained it the best in his application and also admits its more expensive. But more expensive to what ? The other finishes thats been mentioned simply dont provide the same quaility of a surfacer.

   It was reccomended that he leave the finish alone which is abandonding the priciples . The goal of the two part application is to blend the drywall the same whether its a joint or rough sanded paper and mask the difference while the pva base prevents telgraph.

   The homeade primer  I use is much like Stinger describes but the application is different . I use joint compound as the surfacer mixed with PVA for telgraphing . [4 gallon box of USG joint compound with a gallon of PVA primer]  It is shot in a mist at 100 psi actually painting it in new construction with a texture pump. Ceilings and walls are all covered at the same time . The water will leave the primer and its time to back roll it thus leveling all surfaces. It looks like a mat  finish and as it drys further it flattens to the wall as Stinger describes.

   However , the mud primer will hide more inperfections at a cheaper material price but sometimes a higher labor expense if its rolled primarily.

   Youre not going to get better unless you put more material on the wall and work it. But then theres a point of small returns.

   These primers were built  for the probelms of emamels not flat paints . It is true that 2 coats of flat will do a job if emamel is not added to it . If it is then the it  changes the rules. The cheapest finish is a two coat flat finish and by those standards under level 5 finishes are acceptable if truly a level 5 is accomplished with a final sanding of 100 grit screen or sponge sanding . Too many times though the finish it self doent qualify and these primers are asked to do cover up jobs when the job only begged for a quality finisher.

   Tim

    

    

   Edited 2/14/2006 2:17 am by Mooney

1. 
   jimparksjr | Feb 14, 2006 06:50am | #17

   Thanks for all the input!  I am currently testing a room not using the First Coat.  I've just finished priming it with Sherwin Williams Prep-Rite and I can already tell the First coat would have been helpful in providing a better surface.  I'll let you know after I finish my tests in a few days. 

2. 
   RW | Feb 14, 2006 07:17am | #18

   I disagree. The abandoning principles part. If you read the spec sheet on builders, nowhere does it even mention backrolling. It says spray it, and heavy. It recommends heavier than I've been able to do without runs. And I think the backrolling is simply extra work. And once you put a roller over it, you've just limited the mil thickness that you can keep on the wall. You can't release 17 wet mils from a roller, at which point I think you have abandoned everything the product had going for it. Might as well just use a primer.  

   If you've used the stuff, when it goes on that thick, it hides it all. The dried wall - theres no difference between paper or joint or sanded too much. The only thing you can't do is leave a mess of debris on the walls and floors before you spray. If you sweep or vac that out of the way first, you end up with darn near an autobody finish. The occasional strand of something caught in the mist gets frozen when it dries, thus the quick lick with the pole. Shears them off if you have them.

   http://www.sherlink.com/sher-link/ImgServ?id=datapages/builders_solution_surfacer_107-21.pdf

   "A bore is a man who, when you ask him how he is, tells you." -Bert Taylor

   Edited 2/13/2006 11:21 pm by RW

1. 
   Mooney | Feb 14, 2006 10:31am | #19

   The rules are ;

   Any time a paint or texture is worked after application it will hide more than just being sprayed.

   The best case senario is the difference in splatter and wipe down texture. The very same texture applied. One is left alone and is accepted and the other is troweled . Troweling covers much more .

   Second case senario is spraying orange peel and letting it dry. Now spray it with emamel and see exactly what we are discussing. It will telegraph all the sanded paper . If one texture coat had been back rolled it would have layed the paper down but most importantly it will give a uniform finish all over the room.

   Theres no way you can spray a whole room ceiling and walls and have an even finish in the whole room spraying that heavy paint as back rolling provides.

   Tim

    

2. 
   RW | Feb 14, 2006 05:34pm | #20

   I think you're comparing apples to oranges. DW mud thinned is not a primer. But it isn't worth arguing over."A bore is a man who, when you ask him how he is, tells you." -Bert Taylor

3. 
   Mooney | Feb 14, 2006 05:47pm | #21

   Not arguing .

   Drywal mud thinned is a surfacer . The PVA mixed with it is the primer. Both mixed together is a surfacer /primer. @ about 3.00 per gallon my cost before its thinned with water .

    

   For an added feature , block filler / PVA  mixed does the same thing but doesnt require as much mixing .  

   Tim

    

    

4. 
   Mooney | Feb 14, 2006 06:11pm | #22

   Ah,..

   I think you are very experienced and pretty intelligent so I kept wondering why you said apples to oranges because I had already stated the properties which I did again. I think I found what you were talking about ;

    

   69568.20 in reply to 69568.19 

   The rules are ;

   Any time a paint or texture is worked after application it will hide more than just being sprayed.

   The best case senario is the difference in splatter and wipe down texture. The very same texture applied. One is left alone and is accepted and the other is troweled . Troweling covers much more .

   Second case senario is spraying orange peel and letting it dry. Now spray it with emamel and see exactly what we are discussing. It will telegraph all the sanded paper . If one texture coat had been back rolled it would have layed the paper down but most importantly it will give a uniform finish all over the room.

    

   That was mot meant as an example for using drywall mud for primer but context that working the finish will provide a more uniform wall covering more . I could have used other examples that might have been better such as spraying paint versus rolling it . The rules never change requardless of the materials changing.

   My impression of the directions on the bucket is sales at a higher price . Yes it works because its a surfacer/primer sprayed thick but it will hide more and provide an even finish if its back rolled. I could say the same thing painting a wall with block filler mixed with PVA , but I can get better results working it .

   Tim

    

3. 
   atrident | Feb 14, 2006 09:55pm | #23

     What do you do when rolling to get the inside corners? Use a corner roller?

1. 
   Mooney | Feb 15, 2006 02:25am | #25

   Using a 1 1/2 nap lambs wool roller they are off set 1/8 of an inch when they are wet with paint . The paint spreads them out while the nap to the roller is held tight so you can slop both sides and then bring one side in flush.

   Tim

    

   Edited 2/14/2006 6:25 pm by Mooney

4. 
   IdahoDon | Feb 15, 2006 02:05am | #24

   Too many times though the finish it self doent qualify and these primers are asked to do cover up jobs when the job only begged for a quality finisher.

   Amen 

   Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.