Hi there,
My sister passed away and I’m the executor for her estate. I haven’t done this before so I’m starting to do some research. I met with the lawyer who wrote up her will and he can help but he’s expensive at $250/hour. He even charges $115/hour for his secretary, or administrative assistant. The estate isn’t very large – a house with about $70K equity, a car, a truck, a small boat, and household items. The proceeds are to split between her two kids.
Anyway, I was wondering how hard it is to probabte a will without a lawyer. Her estate is in Virginia. The lawyer says that I’d have to be bonded because I’m from out of state (Massachusetts).
I’m about to start my Google research but would appreciate any advice from you all. Thanks in advance!
Roger
Replies
crash.... what part of virginia ?
donk lives in Va
I've got a brother lives in the Northern Neck and has a small law firm.... i'll try to get a hold of him and see what he can tell me
i think you want local representation in Va.. that would be less expensive to the estate than you traveling
Thanks, Mike. She lived near Fredericksburg (Locust Grove). Her son and daughter live near there. Her son can co-qualify with me but he's 27 going on 12 - not responsible or mature enough to be depended upon.
I can get pretty cheap direct flights from Boston to Richmond on JetBlue, about $150 round trip, but I would like to limit the travel to save more for the kids.
Crash, I have done this before. It's a foreign country till you figure out the right order of stuff.I really highly recommend heading to your public library. They will have a bunch of guides on probating an estate that will define stuff and walk you through what you have to do. Or, a trip to Barnes and Noble or Borders. You ought to be able to find a guide specific to Virginia, and you'll need those laws and procedures, and it will be worth spending 24.95 to have all the info in one spot, in your hands. Or get it free from the library, inter-library loan if necessary.I was able to settle my Mom's estate in NC without a lawyer with no problems whatsoever. My father-in-law in Ohio? They were going to make it really hard there NOT to use a lawyer. Unfortunately, each state is different.I'm sorry about your losing you sister. Hang in there.
Thanks, Theodora. I found a pretty good web site that discusses Virgina probate process. I'm working my way through it. The accounting part sounds like a pain.
http://www.virginiaestatelaw.com/index.htm
Crash, I would advise against coadministrating with your nephew. His mother may have named you, and excluded her children for a reason. My oldest sister and I are listed as the executors of my mothers will. Mom knows her kids, and has acknowledged that the other three kids, aren't qualified or capable of handling the situation for various reasons.
Just FYI - DonK lives near Clarksville, Virginia.
Roger,I live in Fredericksburg. If I can help in any way, let me know.I'm not sure what you could need from me, but I can try if a need pops up.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Thanks, Jon. I am constantly inspired by the generosity of strangers. I can't think of anything but I greatly appreciate the offer.
Of course you could buy her 1991 Wellcraft boat and trailer that she used on Lake of the Woods... ;-)
In Texas we have a 'small estate' affidavit that could be handled either by you or a lawyer fairly cheaply.
Don't know if your state has that.
Clean burning natural gas is the energy independence future of America.
Thanks intrepid. In VA it looks like the estate has to be under $15K to be considered small.
That's too bad. In Texas you can be under $50,000 after excluding a house used as a homestead and some other minor exclusions.
Good luck.
I am sorry for your loss.
edit: correct spelling
Clean burning natural gas is the energy independence future of America.
Edited 4/2/2009 3:58 pm by intrepidcat
As a sidebar to this, intrepidcat, if neither the will is probated nor the 'small estate' is filed before fours years, then Texas sees the estate as "never having a will".....
Might make a big difference when the second wife and her daughter who left the state with everything, leaving the only daughter with zip... No matter what the will said, after 4 years and no probate, the daughter is now entitled to half her dad's estate... Part of the trouble is that the second wife's daughter had power of attorney while he was in a rest home and transfered the other half ownership to her mother...three months before he died... Then, unknow to the only blood relative daughter, the two had a garage sale and sold or gave to the second wife's side of the family 99% his stuff, then even sold the old fellow's workclothes...
There may be nothing left in his estate, but it just boils my blood to what the old lady and her daughter did!!!
If anyone has a comment of Texas Probate law and that kind of "stealing", I'd appreciate a comment on what it would take to get justice over the second wife and her daughter...
Thanks for the side bar, OP, Bill
Edited 4/2/2009 9:56 am ET by BilljustBill
Call a "Senior Center", they have counseleors who will know where to point you.
My Mom was a greiatric Social Worker, and was quite skilled in the process, and knew which lawyers to point the survivors towards.
Also the greif counselors at hospices, could be a very good resource. They are another group of non lawyers who deal with such things on an ongoing basis.
I can give you two data points.
I probated my dad's will in Ohio. It was a bureaucratic nightmare. Fortunately, I had a good lawyer who kept things moving along. His fee is fixed by the state at a percentage of the estate. It took over a year, but that's the way the law grinds. Likewise my brother-in-law (from Virginia) settled his mother's estate with a similar story.
Same brother-in-law settled my wife's father's estate (his father in law also) in Virginia. He and his wife collected up some papers, filled out a couple of forms, went to the county office and were in and out in an hour. He said it was a breeze.
I probated my dad's will in Ohio. It was a bureaucratic nightmare. Fortunately, I had a good lawyer who kept things moving along. His fee is fixed by the state at a percentage of the estate. It took over a year, but that's the way the law grinds. Likewise my brother-in-law (from Virginia) settled his mother's estate with a similar story.
Same brother-in-law settled my wife's father's estate (his father in law also) in Virginia. He and his wife collected up some papers, filled out a couple of forms, went to the county office and were in and out in an hour. He said it was a breeze.
Sounds like the difference between a will and a trust (or other "will substitute").
Actually, this is the point where a properly set up trust saves big bucks, time and hassle. And the setting up doesn't have to be expensive.
Amen. The difference is light-years.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
And I assume YOU, if anyone, noticed my inclusion of the term, "will substitutes."
Many devices are in this category that will excuse an estate from probate. Trusts being one, but simple beneficiary assignments, Transfer on Death (TOD), Payable on Death (POD), gifts, donations, and the almighty "Quit Claim Deed," will do the same thing.
true, but depends upon the state. I have clients all over the country...only a few states use the (TOD) designation. In fact, it is not used in CA, where I spent most of earlier years in the business. I had never heard of it until my cousin asked me to use it with her account. She lives in Ohio. It IS used there. Anyway, you are, of course correct.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
CA adopted the designation in the early ought's.
I moved there just before and tried to do a few people as such. Couldn't until that adoption took place.
good to know. thanks.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
Pete,
My husband and I set up a trust (among other things) when our oldest was born so that the money/estate would be available more quickly for her care in the event of our deaths. It cost us only $300 to do, but of course we'll never know if the lawyer did a good job or not :)
I guess if we do end up moving to LI then we'll have to do it all over again. Judging by the cost of everything else there it will cost us around $2,000+.
Crash, I have nothing to offer buy my condolences for your loss.
we had to redo our estate paperwork when we each time we moved in the last 20 years including:
CA
IL
NJ
PA
Each one was handled differently for various reasons...not the least of which was state laws.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.†-President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
I agree, all states have different laws. As an only child, my Mother died (Dad died before my Mom) I was in charge of the estate. My mother died in VA when her permanent residence was in MD. I was working at the time and couldn't take time away from work or family to handle the legal necessities. Yes, I paid for a lawyer's expertise, time and effort. I didn't spend sleepless nights wondering if I did the right thing at certain deadlines, putting pertinent notices in newspapers, etc. I didn't think the lawyer's fees were over the top.
There is one thing you haven't mentioned. As the Executor, you should hire a professional to file income taxes on the estate. Or, if you are gifted in doing taxes, which I am not, you can file them yourself.
Are you aware, if you do all of the above by yourself, you are required to be paid for your time and effort from the estate?
An aside: My husband's brother was the Executor for their mother's estate. He did keep records and mailed them to my husband (we lived in a different state.) My husband always felt his brother took too much money as the Executor. So, to save bad feelings and keep the family relationship intact, I suggest hiring a lawyer.
Rog, most probate lawyers work on a fixed fee set by the court in terms of percentages. At least here in California, they can not charge hourly, or charge more than the percentage without Court approval.
Check around. Your deal doesn't sound right.
Hi Crash-
Probating a Will can be fairly straightforward. Oftimes, it's what's called "formwork". That's why the lawyer wants the assistant's time paid for. He likely makes a profit. You are still going to be the one doing the legwork, getting the info to put onto the forms - stuff like names, addresses, death and divorce certificates and lists of assets and debts.
I've been tangentially involved in a couple estates down here. My law license was in NY and every state is different. That being said, the folks at the local courthouse are really helpful. It's country. Fredricksburg is not. That's a populated area. Call them. If the clerks are busy, they will not be able to spend time talking to you in the detail you want, but it is their job to help. If you do it alone, it might take you a few attempts to get the papers filled out right.
Keep really good, accurate records of what you do and how long it takes. They can come in handy later. As far as the accounting, I know in NY that can be avoided if the parties agree that the estate has been properly distributed. There may be a way around it in VA too. I would not make distributions until stuff is set up properly and they agree in writing about it. Sorry I'm a skeptic, but I've seen people change their minds after they get the money. The written document helps there.
You are probably entitled to a commission for the work that you do. You are also entltled to hire competent assistance - including a lawyer and accountant. The estate may be worth $80-100K. If it costs a few thousand dollars, it might be worth your peace of mind. I personally believe that charging by the hour is fairer to the client, as long as it's honest time. Some lawyers charge a percentage of the estate, up to 10%. For uncontested estates, that's usually high, unfair to the client.
Be careful about courthouse recommendations. I have heard stories about clerks getting kickbacks. Interview at least two or three lawyers before you hire. Ask how many hours it takes, and why. Ask if there's anyway you can just call if you run into a problem. You will get a feel for whoever you are dealing with.
As far as doing this with your nephew, I wouldn't. Then , there's always a question from his sister if you two are in cahoots against her. It also opens gets sticky if you disagree about how to handle something. Your sister gave you the authority - use it.
If you want, you can shoot me e-mail either through the board or not. I will try to answer particular questions, if I can. Good luck.
Don K.
DonK and everyone,
Thanks for the advice! For some reason I couldn't find this thread for a few days. I thought I had started it in the General Discussion area.
Anyway, I sent the lawyer the retainer check after researching VA probate. Next time I talk to him I'll get an estimate of how much time/money he estimates for the job.
I promise to keep accurate records. I'm on the fence about my nephew because it would be useful to have someone down there with some authority to act in my place. But I need to think about it some more.
Anyway, thanks again. I'll let you know how it works out... if I can find the thread again... ;-)
My wife and I are handling her aunt's will now.
The lawyer we're using is one reccommended by one of her other aunts and it's been a mistake since the first time I met him and had that gut feeling..............he's disorganized and starting to seem shady.
Having said that, as much as I've had to prompt him, it would have been difficult to navigate without a lawyer.
There were two funds that were a nightmare to liquidate.
Also, if you think there will be any dispute over the proceeds of the estate.................an attorny provides impartial oversite
The question to me would be less do I need one......and more do I have the right one.
Thanks, Robert. When I met with the lawyer he seemed very professional and organized. So it was a warm fuzzy. So I'm not uncomfortable that he'd do a good job.
Before you get the bond double-check the will. If she stipulated in the will that you would be the executor and would serve "without bond" then you probably don't need one.
One of the first things to do is to get the will registered before the court, I believe (at least what I've heard 2nd hand in other states). When that happens (and you've met any bonding requirement) then you're officially "it".
Many courts will have a preprinted list of steps you need to follow. Should be fairly simple (outside of selling the house) if you're reasonably organized about it. Be sure to keep rigorous records.
There's probably even an "Idiot's Guide" to this.
What you say is consistent with what the lawyer said about qualifying with the court. I checked the will and it does say that I don't need to be bonded so hopefully that'll be adequate as you say. Thanks gain!