My frustration is over I got it done ,barely, but I can not figure out what I was doing wrong.
The situation is:
3/4 copper pipe run on a horizontal, cold water for about 8 feet
Two 3/4×1/2×3/4 tees in the line about 3 feet apart up to dual vanity sinks.
End of line was a 3/4 ell with a 3/4 x 1/2 adapter to the toilet.
I needed to move the outside frost proof faucet.
So I removed the 3/4 ell and adapter replaced it with a 3/4×1/2×3/4 tee. Sweat that on no problem ( I drained the line before all this)
Then comes a 3/4 street ell at about a 45 degree angle in the end of the tee, 12″ of 3/4 pipe another 3/4 street ell turned the opposite way that is into a 3/4 copper to 3/4 iron pipe adapter which the faucet get screwed into. I assembled this then sweated it to the 3/4×1/2×3/4 tee. No problem with all of this, it all went fine.
Last step replace the riser to the toilet, clean the new piece of pipe the 1/2 side of the 3/4×1/2×3/4 tee. Flux both heated it, ( the faucet is not screwed in) can’t get it hot enough. Take it apart try again, solder just breaks off does not melt.
I keep trying different torch angles (standard torch and propane) no result.
Try a wet rag wrapped around the 3/4 pipe 6″ away on the side of the supply no result.
Try two wet rags either side of the tee no result. Had tis help in the past.
Clean the torch Nope.
Last I try blowing out the pipe a bit of water came out 4 oz or so not much,
but it could of been way down stream. Blew into the roman tub sprayer hose.
Before this I checked the tee with something dip stick style it came out dry.
Cleaned the torch again to be double sure heated the tee from the bottom.
Got it just hot enough to melt the solder.
So what went wrong, why was I able to solder it all except one joint 15 minutes later, needed to measure and cut the 1/2 pipe, same sodder , torch, flux, and propane. I am embarrassed to say this took hours, I would of gotten an new torch and Mapp gas if anyone was open. But most people say propane is fine up to 3/4.
As always all commits are welcomed even the jabs.
Wallyo
I sweat a lot of copper pipe in my time, never had this much trouble.
Replies
Try this.
Light the torch.
Ok, get Mapp is all I got.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
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Sphere is there a missing photo in your post?Never used mapp gas have never needed it. Can it be used with a standard 10 dollar torch head? What gets me is why was propane no problem on the other 5 joints, just the sixth one.Wallyo
Just a smilie missing from Sphere's post, no picture. In my experience, propane on a normal head is marginal for 3/4" copper. MAPP is hotter, and the propane is hotter in a swirl burn head, like the original TurboTorch. It is mysterious why the other joints were fine and the last one was wicked to you. Propane getting low, less pressure=less heat? I'm just guessing here.Bill
You missed the punchline.
Look again.I use Mapp exclusively for plumbing and propane for copper roof work, but yes, Mapp cylinders fit any head that propane does.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Sphere Sorry meant a LOL for "light the torch", I got the punch line and a good chuckle.Thanks
I see your problem is that you didn't get all of the water out and didn't force the line down away from where you were soldering. When you put a riser piece on it you slowed down the water vapor from leaving the tube.
Don't get too anal about the different gases they will all work, you just need a different tip for larger sizes, luck. (BACK IN THE OLD DAYS THEY EVEN USED GASOLINE!).
"If all else fails, read the directions"
I'm With Shacko, if steam can't freely escape or at least get pushed far enough away down line than to much water vapor is still present to allow for proper heat.To test; undo all connections and re-start in reverse ending at the hose bib with it open.
Most people don't appreciate how much heat water can soak up as it boils. You can actually boil water in a Dixie cup placed in the coals of a campfire, because the water prevents the paper from getting hot enough to burn. The cup burns down to the water line, then as the water boils away the water level drops and the cup eventually burns up when the water is gone.
BruceT
Exactly right, very good example for this thread. Now you mention I know I've had trouble convincing people in the past about that trick being possible during "did you know" type talks.
Shacko Good point on the riser it was not too tall 10-12 inches, but since I was in the crawl space and it was in the bath I could not see if any vapor was coming out or hear if it was sizzling.Also wondering if the riser was touching the ceramic tile if the tiles were working as a heat sink? They are 16x16. I know if the line is full you will never get it hot enough, but how much is too much?When I drained the line I opened every faucet in the house. Some may have been trapped in via vacuum and found it way back.Wallyo
Heat can draw moisture to the exact spot where you don't want it, thats the reason that in a similar situation I always jack the pipe down to give fall away from the point of soldering, any water could be too much if the pipe is sloped toward the joint. A hotter torch might have helped, but you don't need it if you keep the water away, luck.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
I recently came up with the exact same scenario. Couldn't get the solder to take for anything. Clean and bright. Bone dry.
New fittings on the same pipe no problem but those old fittings that were a bit longer and thicker gave me nothing but a hard time.
Got me to wondering about metals content and the different solders used back then that might have done something. Dunno.
Maybe I never got it heated enough but shouldn't have taken as long as it did when the flux burns out.
I'm thinking the old fitting was the culprit. If I could have made that fitting work it would have saved be a slew of trouble and a headache.
If it's any condolence when searching for an answer and relating my story to others I found that many had run into the same situation and none had an answer.
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John RuskinAndrew Clifford of Clifford Renovations, who serves as a steward of our history for future generationsWe can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measurable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
Edited 6/4/2009 4:56 pm ET by rez
RezInteresting point, I described the situation to the best sales man at the supply house yesterday, he has been there longer then I even moved to the state, that was a while back 20 yrs +, and it is not a big box store, they are retail/wholesale plumbing and electric only. He just said "I don't know that is awful weird".Side notes: The tee was brand new the riser on the other hand was older, a small stick I had in the shop for years it was behind a wood pile.I also for a split second thought of buying a shark bite equal tee, the 10.00 price turned me off.Penny wise pound foolish?Wallyo
A propane torch, especially the turbo-torch style that produces a swirling flame, is plenty hot, even for pipes up to 1-1/2", or even 2". I've done it with hundreds, if not thousands, of joints. I'm talking about the ordinary kind that screws directly on the small tank.
My guess is that, either you had water in the line that you didn't know about, or you may have actually over-heated the joint so that the flux was burned off the surface, and the solder would not flow into the oxidized joint.
I'll offer some soldering basics at the risk of sounding preachy.
It's important to understand the role of each of the elements that come into play with soldering:
1. Flux's main purpose is to protect the cleaned copper (or brass) surfaces from oxidation. It does not cause the solder to flow, does not mix with melted solder, and the cleaning properties of many fluxes are just a bonus--you could use ordinary Vaseline as a flux, if needed. (Or no flux at all if you were able to solder in an oxygen-free atmosphere.)
2. Heat does not "suck" solder into the joint. Heat simply makes the solder melt so it can flow.
3. Capillary attraction is the force that draws the solder into the joint. Properly-manufactured fittings and pipe are made to create a tolerance, or space between them that is just right for capillary action--between 2 and 9 thousandths.
4. On a horizontal joint, it's always best to heat the bottom of the fitting and pipe first, especially on larger sizes. Heat the bottom (6:00 o'clock), feed solder at the bottom as soon as it will flow, then bring the heat up on one side up to 12:00, feeding as you go, and being careful not to over-heat; then do the other side the same. Small pipe, like up to 1", you will just do the bottom, then the top. Never top-feed the solder--it's a bad habit to get into, even though many guys do it routinely. Gravity pulls the solder down as quickly as capillary attraction pulls it inward, and you will get a "holladay" in the top part; the joint seals only because of the small bead of solder on the mouth of the fitting.
5. Try to heat both the fitting and the tube at the same time, bringing them both up to the same temperature at the same time. Thicker, heavier metal parts will absorb more heat and come up to temperature a little slower.
rdesignsMight of been water if it was it was not much.over heating, not sure on that I disassembled the joint, cleaned re-fluxed and tried again too many times.Could not get the solder to even melt it just fell off in 1/4 inch bits.I always though flux helped draws the solder in thanks for clearing that up.What do you think of the tile heat sink see my last post?Good tip on not to top feed I do that for sure, I will repent and change my ways.Just a bit more info don't know if this is good practice but I usually heat till the flame is turning a green tint then I solder. I could not get a green flame.Wallyo
Edited 6/3/2009 8:55 pm by wallyo
It really does sound like there was water in the line. If steam is exiting via the joint you are trying to sweat, it will clean out all the flux and prevent solder from going into the joint. Getting solder in there while steam is coming out is sort of like trying to push a boat up a waterfall.Bill
As others have pointed out, a closed system is going to try to "breathe" through the last unsoldered joint--whether by steam or air passing through the joint.
However, like others, to me it sounds more like water in the line because of the way you saw 1/4" pieces breaking off. That's what happens when the joint assembly is not hot enough to melt solder on contact--the heat of the torch is just melting bits of solder.
Judging when the joint has reached temperature is important, so that you don't overheat and burn out the flux. To judge this, pay no attention to the flame color. Simply touch the solder to the joint without getting the solder directly in the flame. When it melts and is drawn into the joint, pull the heat away briefly as you continue feeding solder. Move the solder up and around the joint till it quits melting, then add heat to the parts not done. Remember: you can always add heat, but you can't take it away. The bigger the pipe, the more critical are all these steps.
Did you wire brush the inside of the fittings????
How clean were the ends - should be bright with NOTHING missed.
JunkhoundYes I wire bushed several times before each try inside the tee and out side the riser.
Clean and bright the were.Wallyo
Then like others have said, you still are getting water into the joint area.
Try adding a union for the last joint.
I'm not sure if any of this was your problem but here are somethings to try next time.
Open the highest valve in the house and the lowest one, this will help to drain the whole system. If water gets close to the area you are soldering,(even a little), it will sink the heat away.
A slice of bread,(without crust), can be shoved into the water line to serve as a temp water block, but it will go gooey rather fast.
Those pipes have to be clean, that is part of what fluxing will do, depending on the flux.
I have even had to use 2 torches before, but not much. 3/4 copper pipe is the so called limit for a propane torch, but 1 inch copper has been soldered several times with great success.
Another note: It is next to impossible to solder the last connection when the system is closed, or no valves are open, as the air expands inside the pipe and will usually blow a hole in the solder, before it can cool.
Plan B, is to get a solderless connector, but they are not always a good answer either.
Anyway I hope this helped....
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