Hi. I’m a first-time visitor to this site. I bought a 120 year old house three years ago and don’t have a big salary, so am trying to do a lot of work on it myself. I think I might be asking for advice on a regular basis!
The current problem is with the exterior paint. I power-washed the siding, which had become chalky, and stripped the paint off of the trim. I applied a primer from Home Depot: Zinsser Cover-Stain Primer Sealer Stain-Killer Bond Coat. It is oil-based. The paint I used on the siding has caused no problems. The paint I applied to the trim is another matter. It is Glidden Evermore Latex Enamel Hi-Gloss. I put on two coats.
Over the winter ALL of the horizontal trim surfaces have cracked open. It didn’t matter if it was on new wood or old, applied on hot days or mild, facing north south east or west. The wood was bone dry when I painted. Absolutely all of the horizontal surfaces are cracking. The vertical surfaces seem ok so far, but I feel anxious that they will follow suit in a year or two.
So, what is the problem? It seems like it must be the primer. Or is the combination of primer and hi-gloss a mistake? What can I do to prevent this happening again?
Replies
How was it applied? Is it cracking and flaking, or alligatoring? How long was the primer on before you top coated? Why would you use Glidden exterior? :) How long did it dry after the P washing? What kind of siding?
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It was applied with a brush (that's what you mean, right?).
The old paint on the trim was alligatoring, so I removed it completely with a heat gun. The new paint is cracking and coming off of the wood. It seems like the primer is coming off with it.
The primer was on anything from one hour to several days before painting. That timing didn't matter. The horizontal surfaces varied greatly in age of wood, timing of painting, etc, but they are all cracking.
"Why would you use Glidden exterior? :)" - Aha. What are considered the better exterior paints? The Home Depot guy told me Glidden was the middle range in quality.
The power washing was applied to the siding, but not normally to the trim. It was started a year before, and the last sections finished in early summer. The painting did not start for several weeks after the washing. It wasn't damp, not at all.
The siding is that old fashioned kind with asbestos in it - I think someone called it "shakes"? Do you know what I mean by that? The paint on the siding seems just fine. No sign of trouble.
Ah, it's just the trim.
With out seeing it we can only hazard guesses, but some things pop out.
You brushed it, so I would assume it's not excessively thick coated.
If the primer is coming off with the paint, the adhesion problem is most likely with prep work, moisture or the primer. I'm not to fond of Zinsser as an exterior primer, or most other fast dry primers in this situation. I would prefer to see a slow dry oil primer, in most cases. Some problems are caused by applying harder finishes over softer. Fast dry primers are usually softer. Especially using a high gloss.
I normally don't like to powerwash, if you sprayed the siding, plenty of water found it's way into the trim boards, though it seems you waited long enough, there could have been trapped moisture depending on drying conditions. Conversely you say that you started prep a year ago. Did the wood sit bare that long before you appled primer? That can be a trouble spot if you didn't resand.
There could be any combo of moisture problems going on,trpped or infiltration because of improper flashing or caulking. and maybe combined with inelastic paint or primer coats.
Barry E
Edited 6/18/2003 6:02:16 PM ET by Barry E
Barry E said:
"You brushed it, so I would assume it's not excessively thick coated."
No, though I was not so happy with the Glidden at this point. I applied two coats and had a feeling like it was already as thick as one ought to have it, but still in some spots it really didn't cover well. (I've suspected this could also mean a poor quality brush? I bought the regular inexpensive ones but took good care of them.)
Barry E said:
"If the primer is coming off with the paint, the adhesion problem is most likely with prep work, moisture or the primer. I'm not to fond of Zinsser as an exterior primer, or most other fast dry primers in this situation. I would prefer to see a slow dry oil primer, in most cases. Some problems are caused by applying harder finishes over softer. Fast dry primers are usually softer. Especially using a high gloss."
Well, I'm starting to see some possibilities here. I do think you might have something with the soft primer and high gloss paint being a bad mix. And see below....
Barry E said:
"I normally don't like to powerwash, if you sprayed the siding, plenty of water found it's way into the trim boards, though it seems you waited long enough, there could have been trapped moisture depending on drying conditions. Conversely you say that you started prep a year ago. Did the wood sit bare that long before you appled primer? That can be a trouble spot if you didn't resand."
I still don't think moisture was the problem. But maybe my prep was bad. Yes, the wood did sit bare in some cases. (Not all, though. In some cases I removed the old paint and put on primer the next day. In some cases it was new wood.) And I didn't realize that I needed to sand the wood if it felt smooth. I was lax there. Is that why? Because I didn't sand enough?
Barry E said:
"There could be any combo of moisture problems going on, and maybe combined with inelastic paint or primer coats.
If I were to guess without actually looking, I would guess poor primer and/or more prep work being needed."
So, ok. I've got someone working on a few remaining spots that needed major repairs. I plan to paint all that this summer, and then the house will be done, finally. So this is what I think I hear you saying. I could keep using the high-gloss Glidden, but should get a slow-drying primer. Any suggestions of brand?
I also need to do a more thorough job of sanding.
Should I remove the paint from all the surfaces that cracked this summer, or can it wait until next? Any tips on prep - just take it back down to the wood and sand it well and paint it again?
Thanks for all the help - I guess I'm suffering the typical results of a do-it-yourselfer....
What you said about brushing gives me another thought. Maybe it was overbrushed? It's a common problem and thin coats can cause as many problems, especially on the exterior, as overly thick coats.
As far as the sanding, it wasn't a matter of being smooth, but of "tooth". If it sits awile between prep and primer it should be resanded. Wood resins and/ or chalking may have worked back to the surface that would need retoothed.
As far as brands, any quality long drying oil primer should be fine, I prefer Sherwin Williams in most instances, but I would stay with a "system" for warranty down the road. As far as topcoats, it pays to buy the top of the line, which should be 100% acrylics.
"Should I remove the paint from all the surfaces that cracked this summer, or can it wait until next? Any tips on prep - just take it back down to the wood and sand it well and paint it again? "
That should work, but I would also use a moisture meter to make sure of the content.
" I guess I'm suffering the typical results of a do-it-yourselfer...."
I've seen similar results from some pros, so don't sweat it. And remember this is all just theory from afar.
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Barry E
Amy,
Any chance that what you have for siding is asbestos shingles?
What I'm conjecturing is that the source of the problem with the horizontal pieces is…………water infiltration into the wood during the fall or warm days of winter when snow may be replaced by rain. That combined with subsequent freezing temps, could easily cause the wood to swell and the paint to then crack because the swelling would exceed the capability of the paint to stretch.
I'm imaging that by horizontal trim, you mean head-jambs and casings of windows and doors, and maybe the windowsills. Are there metal raincaps over the windows and doors….or at least a functioning bead of quality caulk? Are the joints between the bottom of the window side-jambs and the sill caulked to prevent water encroachment there?
If you do have asbestos shingle siding, the butt joints between the shingles would have likely been originally backed with 30# paper. This may be deteriorated to the extent where rainwater can now enter and slide down the sheathing behind and then come in contact with the window head-jambs and casings. Caulking those vertical butt joints between the shingles may then be in order. PL Premium polyurethane caulk would be my choice, I think.
I will have a look outside and respond more fully later, but two things I can say right now:
Yes, I think the siding is asbestos shingles.
I made a wooden gate attached to wooden posts that I also painted with the same primer and paint last year. They are not a part of the house at all and the horizontal surfaces on this (i.e. the tops of all the boards and posts) also cracked.
" I made a wooden gate attached to wooden posts that I also painted with the same primer and paint last year. They are not a part of the house at all and the horizontal surfaces on this (i.e. the tops of all the boards and posts) also cracked."
Hmmmmmmmm. Now we do have thought provoking mystery, it would seem.
I'll keep thinkin' on it. No promises.
Edit: That new gate wasn't made with PT wood and painted while still too damp, was it?
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 6/18/2003 3:00:09 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
AmyA said:
" I made a wooden gate attached to wooden posts that I also painted with the same primer and paint last year. They are not a part of the house at all and the horizontal surfaces on this (i.e. the tops of all the boards and posts) also cracked."
Goldhiller said:
"Hmmmmmmmm. Now we do have thought provoking mystery, it would seem.
I'll keep thinkin' on it. No promises."
Is this kind of unusual then? Do you think it could be that I just didn't use a good enough quality of paint and primer? (I don't think it could be a bad batch because I bought many buckets of primer, and am on my second bucket of trim paint, purchased months later.)
Goldhiller said:
"Edit: That new gate wasn't made with PT wood and painted while still too damp, was it?"
Is PT wood some kind of treated wood? It was the kind that has a sort of green color. But I made the gate in the fall of 2001 and painted it in the summer of 2002, so it wouldn't have been too damp, would it?
Yes, PT refers to pressure treated lumber. this stuff usually arrives at your local lumberyard and to you....wringing wet from the treatment. But no, in that amount of time there should be no moisture left from said treatment. And....as cautious as you were about painting only when the house wood was dry, I suspect you did the same with the gate.
Barry E mentions something important I think about using that particular primer with that particular topcoat and one of the reasons I didn't comment on it is that I've always avoided using these primers for exterior work out of suspicion alone. The slow drying oil primers are my favorites also for exterior wood.
I've had no further brain storms as of yet concerning your problem. Maybe later or perhaps someone will jump in here who does.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Hi. I'm first of all replying to your earlier post:
You said:
I'm imaging that by horizontal trim, you mean head-jambs and casings of windows and doors, and maybe the windowsills. Are there metal raincaps over the windows and doors?.or at least a functioning bead of quality caulk? Are the joints between the bottom of the window side-jambs and the sill caulked to prevent water encroachment there?
Yes, the problem is occurring in all those areas. There are no metal raincaps, but most of the trim had a brand new bead of caulk. I caulked everything before I painted it. Some of that caulk was Home Depot's cheapest kind, but I found out about the better polyurethane stuff half-way through the summer and used it after that. Those sills, etc, also cracked. Most of the caulk still looks like it is intact.
You said:
If you do have asbestos shingle siding, the butt joints between the shingles would have likely been originally backed with 30# paper. This may be deteriorated to the extent where rainwater can now enter and slide down the sheathing behind and then come in contact with the window head-jambs and casings. Caulking those vertical butt joints between the shingles may then be in order. PL Premium polyurethane caulk would be my choice, I think
Hmmm. This could be part of it. I had started caulking between the shingles (you mean the up and down gaps between them, right?), but a contractor I had at the house at the time said I didn't need to do that.
I just don't get any impression of moisture running down inside, and there are all these surfaces where that couldn't have been the reason anyway.
I'll answer your second post now. :-)