Replies

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 10, 2007 03:58am | #1

   These may be some things you should have been aware of before making the decision when you were examining all the pros and cons.

   Your manufacturer puts out a booklet detailing ways to attach trim and siding and to finish the interior, etc. Some have proprietary methods that are worth knowing for yours.

   Generally though, you screw strapping to defined locations on the ICF blocks, then attach finish surfaces to that.

   For ledgers - depends what sort of ledger, but there are special forms for bearing surfaces and positions. One does NOT simply screw ledgers to the ICF! It sounds like your contractor needs to read the book BEFORE he pours.
   And alternate method to using the ledger form blocks is to hang in some allthread or anchor bolts when pouring, tied to the rebar, then remove the foam right where the ledger will install, and then bolting the ledger to the wall in direct contact with the concrete.

   adding ledgers is definitely WORK to consider, but it is only a "problem" if he does it wrong.

    

    

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2. 
   alwaysoverbudget | Oct 10, 2007 07:16am | #2

   i worked on a icf house that we left the sheetrock 3" high off the floor,then went in and inserted a 1/2 pc of  wood to use as a nailer  for our base trim. seemed to work pretty well. larry

   why pay someone to screw it up,i can do it for free....

3. 
   RippySkippy | Oct 10, 2007 06:54pm | #3

   If your experienced contractor doesn't know about the Strong Tie connectors,  run away.  They are not difficult to install...and they work very well, but do need to be installed before pouring. :-)

   Oissue I had to work though was T'ing an interior stud wall to the block where the stud wall didn't land on an interior strap.  Ultimately I used a hot knife, removed the foam in 5  rabbets,  10" long x 3 inches wide x 1/2" deep down to the internal strapping at the top, bottom, middle and then half way from top/bottom to the middle.  Glue and screw a 1/2" plywood ledger across 2 straps, screw the interior wall to the plywood pieces.  Very strong, not a single drywall interior corner failure.

   I ran a 1/2" piece of plywood around the perimeter where there was ICF, and nailed the trim into it...seemed to work well.  Just make sure your plywood is shorter than your trim height!

   Think about EVERYTHING you can possibly imagine and anytime you think you might want a hole in the wall, do it before the pour with a PVC sleeve. 

   Rip

1. 
   ronbudgell | Oct 11, 2007 02:24am | #5

   Rippy

   I use a couple of 6" Hilti bolts.

   Ron

4. 
   AdamGreisz | Oct 11, 2007 12:55am | #4

   I built an ICF house (Quad Lock) years ago and we had to remove the ICF to bolt our roof ledgers (story and a half house) to the concrete. This was before strong tie connectors were approved. Removing the foam was very time consuming, especially comparing it to nailing a ledger to the studs through a piece if sheathing. Bullet proof when complete.

   I have not done any work with ICF since the Strong tie hangers were approved but it sure likes like they simplify the process.

   Wood is Good

   Adam Greisz

    

1. 
   ronbudgell | Oct 11, 2007 02:27am | #6

   Adam,

   What's a roof ledger?

   Ron

1. 
   AdamGreisz | Oct 12, 2007 01:20am | #7

   A roof ledger is the horizontal framing member that the roof rafters are attached to when a lower roofline intersects with a wall. Imagine the one story porch running into the two story house. In the case that I mentioned it was attached directly to the concrete of the walls (thus it was necessary to remove the foam). We used wedge anchors to bolt a pressure treated 2X ? to the concrete and then used hangers to attach the roof rafters.

   My recommendation for building an ICF house is simplified design. Cost is multiplied by corners, lower roofs hitting ICF walls and typically any attachments are more time consuming (trim, cabinets and drywall).

   I was the superintendant on a very large residential ICF project. http://ravenwood.org/index.html. It was a very difficult design and ended up taking longer and costing more than anyone could have forecast.

   A subsequent boss decided to build an ICF house for himself. He used the same Quad Lock Brand. He took my advice and built a simple design and used his money for the finishes. Both houses came out stunning. The concept is nice but as with any alternative design it costs more.

   Wood is Good

   Adam Greisz<!----><!----><!---->

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   Edited 10/11/2007 6:23 pm ET by AdamGreisz

   Edited 10/11/2007 6:45 pm ET by AdamGreisz

   Edited 10/11/2007 7:03 pm ET by AdamGreisz

   Edited 10/11/2007 7:04 pm ET by AdamGreisz

1. 
   ronbudgell | Oct 12, 2007 03:15am | #8

   Adam

   Thanks for your help. In the circumstances i would call it the same thing. I don't know what I was thinking.

   I have pre-installed anchor bolts to carry such ledgers and have also used wedge anchors (which I usually call Hilti bolts, no matter who made them) when the layout didn't work. I would probably install right on the foam with enough anchor bolts or whatever to carry the bending load on the bolts due to the offset of the foam. That's a guess, not a calculation.

   I agree with you completely about simplifying designs for ICF constructiion. If you have to have a lot of corners, it's probably a lot simpler to build with wood.

   Have you seen ICF Connect hangers? With these hangers cast into the forms, you hang joists, rafters, whatever directly and individually from the concrete - no ledgers, no expensive simpson hangers, no fussing with anchor bolts.

   They are getting to be popular around here, but I haven't used them yet.I will be using them on my next one, starting this month. They ought to save a lot of time and money.

   http://www.icfconnect.com/

   I have been in touch with the manufacturer because the newest version of the National Building Code of Canada says we "must" use ledgers and I wanted to know if I could use these hangers and still avoid site-specific engineering.

   They were as helpful as they could be considering they had never had a problem like mine crop up before and couldn't understand why their in-house engineering wasn't good enough for our local building inspection department. I can't either.

   Ron

1. 
   AdamGreisz | Oct 12, 2007 03:45am | #9

   When that project was completed 2001-2002 none of the ICF specific hardware had been approved. Our engineer also specified (in addition to ledger w/ 3/4" A.B. 16" o.c.) large  straps (similar to LTT but 48" long)on top of joists at 48" o.c.. We pre set the floor ledgers with the bolts already attached to the ledger. Cut 7" diameter holes for each bolt location to allow the concrete to support the ledger. Poured our concrete and then installed the LTT to the top of the I Joists. Played havoc with our sheathing.

   If I was to plan another (and assuming my engineer required a ledger) I would like to try the simpson ICFLV. http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/ICFVL.html

   I love the ICF concept but as with most alternative construction I believe the engineer went nuts and we so over built the the house that it became very costly.Wood is Good

   Adam Greisz<!----><!----><!---->

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