I need help making a judgement call.
On the weekend of 9/9/06 I will finally be installing some 2 1/4″ red oak strip flooring that I have had in storage in my pole barn for three years. I would like to know if it’s reasonable to expect that I could install it and finish it during the same weekend.
Here are the details:
barn not climate controlled, but flooring kept dry
at time of install flooring will have been in climate controlled house for 3 weeks, a/c running entire time, in house bundles were stickered, but not openend
Northwest Indiana, ranch house over full basement
subfloor will be existing old fashioned diagonal planks, currently covered with plywood underlayment, plywood was underlayment for carpet and will be removed this week
finish will be Bona Traffic, using their Dri-Fast stain
I don’t have a moisture meter
Do you think the floor needs more time to acclimate after installation, or can I transition to finish directly after install.
Thanks for your help!
Replies
Acclimation happens when stickered before nailing it down. Once nailed, it is stoo late to prevent any more problems.
As to whether you can install it and finish it in one weekend, you gotta be all azzes and elbows, and have a small amt to do or plenty of help
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If your concern is whether the red oak will be properly acclimated within 3 weeks - I think you will be fine.
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Based on your info, I also think you should have no problem. A moisture meter would help, but it's not essential.
But remember flat-sawn red oak moves more than just about any floor, so be sure to leave 3/4" at the base perimeter.
WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The old wives tale about an expansion gap is just that! THink about it - how would the wood expand that much compared to the underlayment- It is nailed down - are the nails going to move - I hope not- Is the oak at 3" wide going to expand that much - I hope not. If you think about it - there is no sound reason to be concerned about leaving a significant gap. I would agree that say a 1/4 inch gap would be prudent to avoid some problem related to expansion. But for a nailed down floor there is no reason to have a 3/4" gap. For a floating floor - now that is a different story as the floor expands basically independent of the underlayment.
My 2cents.
I'll tell you why, Mr. Porsche.
From personal experience that's why, and not based on anyone's theory.
I laid my kitchen floor down(red oak) with only a 1/2" perimeter spacing for movement. Two months later when summer came, even though I have central air, that 1/2' was not enough cause now the wood is tight to the wall(no base in yet).
And this is only a 12'wide kitchen.
So if want to talk about old wive's tales I'm sure there's a forum for you. But this site is dedicated to real solutions to construction issues.
I would be concerned about the construction since something is moving that SHOULD not be moving. This is based on my experience and other technical references - I can cite a few if you wish!!!
I know you're an engineer, great. But this is red oak, and I've milled a lot of it to know that despite what your technical references may cite, it is prone to more case-hardening, with potential dangerous kickback, than any wood I have ever worked with.
You can believe me, or you can dismiss this. But experience in the field does not lie.
Also it moves a great deal. The construction was professional, felt paper over two layers, 1/2 + 3/4" ply over 2x10s 12" oc. The flooring was nailed tight with an air nailer. Wood moves. Accept it.
I understand all your info - quality construction - but lets say we agree to disagree-
Wood certainly expands - but one of the reasons one gets cupping is poor moisture control - The reason the wood cups is not that it can not expand enough and reaches the wall - it is that the individual boards were nailed down and can not move - so they cup - the same reason that a floor may well have gaps between the boards - each board expanded and "crushed" itself and the board next to it. Just my experience from issues I have seen and installed. In my mind and experience - wood that is nailed to another piece of wood in a secure manner does not move from the underlayment more than the expansion off of the nailed joint. Then furthermore the underlayment should not move significantly since it is tied to the joists - and if the walls are moving with respect to the joists - there is something unusual lets say. I do not doubt what you say - I am sure that you saw what you saw.
Well, I agree with you.
Poor moisture control is main reason flooring cups. And why gaps exist later when the season changes. It is true in cabinetmaking as it is in flooring- moisture content is key to good work v. work that looks good at first then turns out not so good.
I think the original poster knows enough and should have a fine floor. Mine, we'll have to wait and see.
"The reason the wood cups is not that it can not expand enough and reaches the wall "Wrong again!The reason wood cups is that it is absorbing more moisture from underneath in the crawl space than it does out of the airconditioned space above the finished surface. I've seen proof time after time after time.Put away your comic books and listen to those who actually work with wood.
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I agree I knew that someone would pick this up after I posted it. I have tried not to engage in degrading behavior calling books "comic books" and provided what I believe sound technical explanations - the proper discourse for a forum - I think enough said - this is my last reply to the subject as I can see that some of the individuals here take offense.
no fences taken..
you were just a little too over the top in saying a 3/4 space was not neccessay
strip flooring does move, quite a bit season to season
and mostly across the width... we don't leave no 3/4// but we do leave 3/8
your gap in your 1920 floor could be covered with a shoe mold nailed to the base and not the floorMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
As an engineer, I'm sure you have useful knowledge to share in some areas.
But I took offense to your calling my knowledge "an old wive's tale". So- you started this not Piffin. And some of us get a little edgy when we are not respected for all the knowledge we've accumulated over the years, and then we're asked if we can "lower the price a little?"
I'm sure that doesn't happen in your profession or many others, but I'm not crazy about it.
Anyway, I digress.
Have a good weekend.
The reason wood cups is that it is absorbing more moisture from underneath in the crawl space
I'm not sure I completely agree with that. Isn't it a function of the growth rings? The underside of the boards are typically unfinished, so that is the route for the moistutre to enter.
Having said that, I now wonder about the details. Floor boards have to be installed face up, and there's no guarantee that they were milled with growth rings always in the same direction. Yet all the picture you see of cupped floor, none are cupped down.
Ok, I'll go away now. Just proves I need more experience.
But I;m still wondering how a floor can move 3/8" inch and not tear the nails out. And once it expands, how does it shrink back? Are the nail holes now enlarged?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I have to agree with your question. What does happen between the moving flooring material, the nails, and the subfloor when the outermost board of flooring reportedly moves 3/4" inch and back over a season? Regular T&G is nailed at an angle, which might allow for a little movement but some flooring, like mine, is face nailed. So, as was asked earlier, are the nail holes closest to the wall in my rooms now enlongagated to 3/4"? I am about to tear up some floor, so I will report back on the size and shape of the nail holes in my floor. I am sure that all of you will be waiting with bated breath...
when it moves that much, it does tear some of the nails out or open splits in the flooring, and it does not always go back. It is just as likely to shrink in place with small spaces between boards and with nails rubbing on wood and causing squeaks.
It can be a real disaster, that is why it is so important to be fanatical about doing it right in the first place
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FWIW..... I was at JLC this past spring. Gary Katz and Jed Dixon were teaching a full day course that I was a member of. This topic came up and they both sort of just looked sideways at each other. They couldn't have been on more opposite ends of the spectrum on this topic. Gary ended up getting all flustered and basically called Jed a knucklehead (I forget who took which position). It was really amusing to watch though. Two professionals who's work I greatly admire disagreeing on what should be an apprentice level topic.
Me? I don't know. I know that I installed mine with a minimim 1/2" gap. Better safe than sorry if you ask me.View Image
Which leaves me wondering just how tight I should try to get the 2"x5/16" strips without tongue and groove red oak that I will be face nailing to the 2x8 T&G subfloor. This is the dry season and I will let the red oak strips aclimatize for a couple of weeks, but still unsure whether I should just snug the strips to each other or put some pressure on them. I doubt that I want to get them too tight as the problems I have had in the past were with the strips buckeling when they got wet (from dog pee in an area that had a rug, in both cases). And, yeah, I will leave about a 3/4" gap between the wall and the outer most strip of red oak flooring. Thanks
Edited 8/31/2006 8:05 pm ET by CaseyR
casey... this is just square edge oak strips ?
good luck bro.......clear the house and issure ear plugs to the neighbors !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
LOL
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Doesn't amtter too much. you'll have so much squeaking noise that you'll be tearing it up soon anyway.there is a reason for T&GWhat is your reason for trying to do without it?
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The reason for laying 2"x5/16 square edge oak is because that is what is in all of other rooms of the house and has been since the house was built in 1957. I have never heard any squeaks, of course my being deaf might be a factor there (although I was not nearly this deaf when I first moved into the place). However, I have never heard anyone else complain about them and they are fairly common in this area - being in all the neighboring houses. They look really nice in the areas of the floor that weren't soaked for extended periods in dog pee. With the 2x8 sub floor being tongue and grooved and the strips being face nailed with two nails every 6" seems to keep the strips in place pretty well. Since I am getting the place ready to sell (assuming that there is still a market out there...), the easiest options are to replace what's there or cover it with carpet. The realtor says all hardwood floors is a big plus, even if it is only 5/16" thick.
Interesting.I wonder if the finish coatsa of poly are seeping between enough to act as a glue securing one to another to save on squeaks...The 2" subfloor helps too. Not much deflection in that
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Not saying that porche is right, and I have no experience either way, but ... If the floor expanded 3/4" in both directions, enough to close the gap (or even 1/2") wouldn't the nails in the last 2-3 rows of boards be ripped loose? I can't image ther's enough slop in the nail to allow 1/2" of movement.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Flooring nails are usually a jagged T shape, and hold very well. There are other flooring nails.
The wood though comprised of individual pieces, moves as a unit to the point of least resistance. Since all the boards are equally nailed save for a few at both sides which are face nailed, the floor moves to the open gap at the sides. And the pieces are only nailed on one edge at the tongue, allowing movement mostly but not exclusively at the groove side.
your two cents is worth just that.I leave a minimum 3/8"I have seen floors heave themselves right up off the subfloor - not mine, but others who failed to acclimate and to leave a good growth gap.
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I understand and respect you experience - My own house which was built in the 1920s - the oak flooring ABUTS the base molding. When I first saw that close of gap - I was astonished - but there never has been a problem and the gap at the baseboard is not visible unless I point it out to someone. Perhaps that is the way all floors were constructed then? But at least some thought has been stirred.
When you speak from limited experience with a demeanor that denigrates others real time experience, you can expect correction.Sorry if it was too harsh for your sensitive nature.I have worked older homes with the flooring laid tight to the base also.
Back then, the processing and quality of the materials was different than now.You may have red or white oak. It may have been quarter sawn. It may have been harvested from old growth or virgin forest. It might even have been air cured for seven years before turning into a beautiful floor. Most of these conditions and practices are not possible today, or are very rare. Sop it is unfair to come in criticizing good honest, experienced advice baased on one floor and citing figures in a book that may or may not be correctly interpreted and applied. Flooring is as much art as engineering. Wood is beautiful because it has variations. It is not as predictable as steel.Keep all this in mind next time you challenge someone. You might be wrong
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I know that I had said that my last post would be the last but I need to reply to you post. It was not a sensitive nature - I just don't belive that professionals of any type should engage in name calling - I wouldn't tell someone that worked for me, with me or another company to get his head out of a comic book - its just not professional and if one wants to be treated as a professional as I believe you all are - then that is not appropriate "tagging" in my opinion. I did originally state that the gap issue was an old wives tale and if that was taken as offensive - I apologize - but I tried to keep my conversation on a technical AND experience basis.
Old wives tale = comic bookLet's let it pass and go forward from heere then. Sorry to offend.
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Thanks for the help everyone. Didn't mean to start anything.
I will probably go ahead and finish the floor immediately, but the weather at the time will have a say in that matter.
My original concern came from the comments made by the author of Taunton's flooring book. In chapter 4, on page 83 he states, "I wait a minimum of one week and sometimes as long as a month or more before sanding a new floor. The wood needs time to acclimate to its new environment and to relax from the stress of being nailed and screwed to a flat surface. In very dry or very wet climates, wait at least a month."
I'm not a floor mechanic, but I know wood will move with great unyielding pressure. Sometimes it will move a little, and sometimes a whole bunch. Hokey smokes, don't sand it for a month? I am in the sales end of the construction industry, and I know most of the jobsites I visit are on a much tighter schedule than that. Yet, he is the Fine Homebuilding endorsed expert, the guy who literally wrote the book, and those houses in a hurry aren't mine.
Anybody care to elaborate?
eric,
I waited two weeks, but only because I was lazy.My flooring sat in my shop for a month prior. One month inside unfinished is excessive in my opinion. Again, it all comes down to moisture content in your lumber relative to humidity level under and above where the floor is laid.
IIRC, your flooring has been sitting for several years in a barn, and has thus come to an equilibrium moisture content better than a lot of the junk sold today, and installed tommorrow.
PS. In all fairness, I must admit my floor was from Lumber Liquidators- yeah I got sucked into a supercheap price on 3 1/4" red oak, which is now cupping slightly. When I opened the packs and saw pieces as little as 5" long, I shoulda known.
Edited 9/1/2006 8:57 am ET by jackplane
I should have been more specific in my original post that started the string.
My home is circa 1962, thus the diagonal floorboard subfloor. I'm really hoping that's as stable as its going to get:)
As far as the flooring reaching equilibrium, that's what I'm worried about. It hasn't been a very dry summer here, and my fear is that I won't be able to correct three years of non-climate controlled MC to indoor air conditioned MC in the time I have. The floor is going down on 9/9. I have help lined up for it, and can't reschedule. My big question is to finish or not to finish. I'm not an expert, and don't expect perfection. I just want it to be as perfect as I can make it. If I needed perfect I would pay one of you guys to do it, but then I couldn't enjoy the process, learn from it, or waste your time here.
Many thanks to all who share their knowledge here. I have been a Fine Homebuilding subscriber for many years, and this forum is truly a great supplemental resource.
Eric,If you're uncertain, why leave it to chance. Rent, borrow or purchase a moisture meter and find out exactly where you're at.Steve
When you are talking about his equilibrium moisture content, that is in equilibrium for the barn it was stored in, not his house.
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True
Sounds like the problem he is going to have is shrinkage, not expansion. As long as he can live with gaps between the boads there should not be a problem with installing the boards as-is.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
dat's true
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I didn't read the whole thread, but go over the the Knotts section and see what the cabinet and furniture makers say about wood movement in pieces that will never see a drop of water and are a whole lot smaller than a foor. Then, find some online site that talks about old rock quarrys and how they used to drill holes in the rock and drive dry wood dowels down into the holes and pour water over them. The wood swelled and fractured the rock along the row of holes. If it will crack rock, no kind of nail driven in wood is going to keep it from moving.Look at a wood floor in any house in the winter and then again in the summer. You will see a noticable difference in the gapping. Ever noticed a door being tighter and sticking during the wet and humid times of the year?
The diagonal 1x sub flooring mentioned has plenty of gap between the boards I bet. It's because if it didn't and it rained before the roof was on the wood would expand and blow the top course of block off the foundation. Really, it's happened. Even plywood manufacturers require spacing. The drier the wood and air is when the floor is installed, the more space is required. Lastly, I think I saw mention of engineering reports. If you or anyone can produce an engineering report that says there is any way to lay a red oak, or any other wood floor, that doesn't move with seasonal humidity changes, I'll show you an engineer with a degree from some bogus on-line school. If in your experience you haven't seen any movement, you may need more experience. You might benefit from reading some of the things written both here ane in the magazine about miter joint movement in window casing.
OK - I can see this thread continues - The issue that I initially addressed was the need to maintain 3/4' spacing around the outside of a typical sized room when laying hardwood oak flooring.
The matter in question is not really if wood expands - certainly it has a coefficient of expansion that is both temperature and moisture related. I have never disputed that wood can expand and contract (read my posts). What is at issue here is DIFFERENTIAL expansion in a regular residential room with hardwood flooring.
If wood expands differentially to the subfloor and joists as much as 1 1/2 inches over 9 to 10 feet- there is something that is out of the ordinary is my contention- note that I don't say that it can't happen - just that it should not be expected. The examples that you provided are basically plain expansion - not differential expansion - in other words how much one wood expands compared to another piece is differential expansion. Although a door swells in the summer - that still is due to plain expansion for the most part as the walls are more constrained against movement and hence the jamb moves less than the door.
To put this in perspective - look at the hardwood that you place around the fireplace hearth. The pieces next to the hearth are typically faced nailed and then you transition to the tongue nailing. If the expansion that many are asserting occurs - a 1/2 inch or more gap would open up next to the fireplace. I don't know about others - but I would get a quick call back if that happened on a house. Also if as some have stated - the differential movement is significant - what will it do to the face nailing? At least significant squeaks would develop due to the hardwood moving one against another in the winter.
But I don't insist that you by my belief- just respect- it is not built on pie in the sky thoughts. Thanks.
Ron
I'd disagree with you that differential expansion shouldn't be expected.I served a full apprenticeship as a boat builder s I have some experiences with wood expanding. The rule of thumb I use in a marine environment is to allow for 5% expansion across the grain for softwood 3% across the grain for hardwoods and 1% along the grain for both.Therefore if you lay a hardwood floor perpendicular to the joists there would be a differential expansion between the flooring and the joists. I am not suggesting that in an average residential environment a 3% expansion should be expected I normally work to around half that."Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all." Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)
I agree tha a 1-2% expansion is reasonable - but much of the expansion is taken up in the expansion and contraction of the hardwood as it stays "static" on the subfloor. In other words of you have 3" wide flooring over 10' then you have about 40 strips - if they expand and contact slightly on the subflooring - no problem usually - but that is why there are problems if a floor is put down tightly in the middle of winter - expansion. But with moisture equlibrium - the differentital expansion around the edges of the floor will be very small - that is why you see fireplaces with the wood right up to the hearth.
Ron
So if I may digress a bit with a technical question on this subject...How much of a gap at the wall do people think is necissary for 5" wide rift sawn white oak flooring? This is going on a stair landing. The wood has been on location waiting to be installed for 5 years (well acclimated) and the landing is approximately 8'x4'. I also note that in the cross grain direction (which I think is the only one that matters when discussing wood expansion and contraction) one side of the landing is against a wall but the other is open.I suppose that this is more of a theoretical question since I have already installed and finished the floor. Still I am interested in others' opinions.In response to the original poster's question I would comment that it seems to me the biggest variable in the time needed to install the floor is the amount of sanding required. If there is a lot of variation in the installed height of the boards then you will be spending a lot of time making sanding dust. The biggest variable in the total project time is the finishing. I am not familiar with your finishing products. I used Waterlox products and am very satisfied so far but they do take quite some time to dry and cure.Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Chris
I guess the biggest landing I have done was about 6x9, but for most, I don't think I would worry about that particular wood laid in tight
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Rift sawn, nice! I prefer all oak either rift sawn or quarter sawn. Oak is most stable in these two sawing methods, and your landing isn't that big, You will be fine with a 1/4 to 1/2" gap.
As piffin stated, the floors in your 1920's home was either quarter sawn or rift sawn.
Most early floors were. Today sawmills produce about 80 % flat sawn and only 20% quarter or rift sawn. They dont usually seperate it.
Another quality of quarter sawn is its ability to be less permeable to water. Old whiskey barrels are made of quarter sawn white oak for its ability to hold whiskey without leaking.
Btw, I have a source for 4/4 quarter sawn white oak for $6.07 a foot if anyone is interested.
http://www.hardwoodbarn.com/
Another quality of quarter sawn is its ability to be less permeable to water.
Close. The way a board is sawn has nothing to do with holding water. Red oak is ring porous and white oak is not ... or the other way around, I forget ... and th tiny capillary pores in red oak allow water to pass through.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
The reason white oak has always been a traditional wood for boatbuilding, barrels etc is that all hardwoods have long tubes running through them called vessel elements.....like a bunch of straws. White oak has little starchy plugs in these vessel elements called tyloses, so after it is sawn into lumber, water can't travel along those tubes. Red oak doesn't have them; you can stick a piece of red oak in dish soap and blow bubbles from the other end....if air can blow through them, so can water.
Everyone;
I definitely am on the side of leaving room for expansion (I use 1/2")....I've seen buckled floors, and the manufacturers spec the expansion for a reason. The standard spec on maple gym floors is 2" at all walls and doors, even when nailed down.....there are pictures around of at last one gym floor that has moved and pushed the bottom of the walls out. Same thing is going on on a smaller scale with any floor, and I totally respect the force that swelling wood can exert. Quartersawn will expand less on the width than flatsawn (quartersawn will get thicker as it picks up water), but it will still grow.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
I didn't read all the replys so this may have been duplicated by others.
My opinion is no it's not ready to put down. Any wood stored in an outdoor envronment will be in the 12 to 15 percent range this time of year. Bringing it indoors with the ac on is the right approach however AC with no heat will not force out the interior water very fast. Stickering only the bundles will have a negative effect since the outer boards of the bundles will dry faster than the sandwitched boards and once installed will shrink at different rates, Not good. To speed it up sticker all the boards and circulate the air with a fan or if you opt to leave them in the bundles they should set for several months.
Riverman,
Thanks for the direct and informative post. Most others seem to think I will be ok, but I respect your opinion.
The stuff has already been in my house for over two weeks with the a/c on. How about I break open the bundles and restack with stickers between every level and put a fan on it. I will be able to sit like that for 6 days before I need to do anything with it. Nofma suggests at least 4-5 days to acclimate. I doubt that they can make that recommendation with the assumption that all flooring will have been kept under climate controlled conditions prior to sale. One of the local lumber yards keeps their flooring in a shed not so different from my barn. I know they aren't holding inventory for three years, but it doesn't take that long for the wood to take on or give up moisture.
Also, are you saying don't finish it right after I install, or are you saying it won't even be ready to install?
You could install the flooring now, it’s a matter of how much shrinkage you can live with. August is about the worst time to install flooring. My guess, based on your info, the wood is around 9%-10%. If that’s the case and your home is climate controlled as in AC summer and humidified to 50% in the winter the flooring could show 1/32 + gaps once acclimated to the live in conditions. This doesn’t sound like much however keep in mind the gaps accumulate, some rows may be tight and others show twice or three times the gap width. Flooring is cut from low grade lumber, hence the short random lengths, some is flat sawn some ¼ sawn, with many being a variation of both. The shrinkage between the two laid end to end can be quite noticeable. 2- 1/4 strip flooring is narrow enough to hold the above to a minimum. Another factor to consider is if the flooring is installed in new construction or an older well acclimated home. New construction contains an enormous amount of water and installing 6% flooring to soon can yield huge gaps at the joints of the sub-flooring. Again it depends on what you can live with, if you have the time I would wait another couple of weeks. As to finishing, anything under 10% will work. A suggestion on finish. The new water-based floor finishes work very well, get a professional grade as apposed to the usual Minwax homeowner variety. Try a few sample boards to see what it looks like. Water base on oak gives the wood a dead look. Around here most installers use a first coat of poly oil followed up with two coats of water base for clarity and durability. Word of caution the oil first coat needs to be totally dry, 48 hours is best.