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Has anyone ever run what I call a “production shop”? I know this isn’t the proper business term for it but what I mean is where you just make something (i.e. the widget analogy) and market it. No custom design and production is continuous more or less without having prepaid customers
Whether it be furniture, stair pieces, etc. (flooring mill comes to mind) does anyone have any experience doing this?
And no, I don’t have any specific questions…yet (well I actually do but they number into the hundreds) just curious as to how a business like this would operate.
Mike
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Cookie Cutter Carpentry- Sounds pretty boring to me Mike.
Go to the office, make coffee, feed the wood machine,push the ON button, sit back, drink and watch the machine spit out fancy termite food.
Bob :-)
*Bob, Boring maybe but I'm looking at the aspects of more stability, less hassles with lost time estimating and never getting the job and waiting for the phone to ring. I'm looking more towards the "build something and they will buy (hopefully) concept". No idea where I'm going with this, just brainstorming.Mike
*I build all sorts of stuff and am in the process (again) of opening a spot where I'll sell custom made furniture. I can 1. sell off the floor (which is hit/skip) 2. take and create custom orders (bread and butter) 3. have a guy come in and talk about wholesaleing an item. He may order, say, three hundred of a lamp design I've created. If I take the deal, I've just become a production shop as everything must be geared towards this one endevour.....boring, but big bucks. (if I maintain the schedule/delivery etc.)To mass produce anything without a buyer waiting in the wings would be risky indeed. Don't know what you have in mind, but they do have those buyer shows where you can peddle your wares. If it's good, chances are someone will give you a contract.
*Jim, Interesting...I don't really have anything in mind per se at the moment, just trying to work into a specific niche I suppose. You sound like you are in a position I would like to be in. Production stuff keeps you going but an occassional custom order is appreciated as well. Basically I'm in a position where I have a nice bit of shop space, a collection of tools and now just have to find a specific application for them. I love the idea of just making custom furniture but don't know if thats a sustainable income without something else going like a basic produce and sell, cookie cutter item?Mike
*Custom shutters is huge here in my home town. The interior shutters that open and close
*Michael: I used to make curved casing with my Williams & Hussey moulder. When my stair business went full time, I had to let this part of my business go. I sold my machine to a friend who does curved trim after hours. He lets me use it on occasion for my work. He made over $35000 with it last year just part time. He has a good job, and it is a struggle with him leaving it. So for now, he is having his cake and eating it too.Curved casing isnt cookie cutter type of work. Every sitution is different, and since it is custom, and curved---you can make a nice profit. Just look around at all mid to upper houses. Most have arched windows.It is wide open out there. I am always referring clients to my friend for curved casing.Michael---If you are interested, I would be more than happy to share with you some curved trim making tricks that I have learned from others and through my own experience.One more thing: Making curved trim is a perfect side job that can privide income during a lull in your other work.
*Mike. If its the custom furniture biz your interested in maybe you could post it over at FWW. They might be able to more accurately answer the question.
*Mike, I knew two guys who did what you're asking about. One made one item only for a company that imported small animal figures from South America I think. He made a display piece that was a glued up stack of #2 pine bandsawn into an ark. (Like Noah's)Made them by the hundreds a couple times a year, pretty much just puttzed around in between doing whatever came along. He had a pretty good thing going with those, I guess the importers had them in stores all over the country. The second guy made schlock that he sold at craft fairs. The kind of thing you see at a swap meet, really fast & dirty, but there's a market.He made clocks from 1x12 #2 pine, cut out the shapes with a big plunge router with a cove bit and a pattern. All day long that router would run making these damn things. Used to drive me nuts as he was 3 shops away in this big industrial complex.Next step was MINIMAL sanding with a palm sander and then into a bath of CHEAP dark oak stain. You can make your own if you're really cheap.Wipe off the stain with a window squeege first then quick swipe with a rag and onto a rack to dry. Next was a squirt with sanding sealer, fast dry & fast build too. Best done outside in the middle of the night if you casn get away with it & the weather permits.Assemble with screw gun, install cheap battery clock, and Viola, ART!! Cheap art, but pays the bills.Is this what you have in mind? It's just like working in a factory, only you own the factory. Both of these were 20 years ago, #2 pine was cheap and was pretty decent too. Anything like this is probably gonna get your neighbors real pissed real quick if you plan to do it at home. What's the local government have to say about home business? Good luck, Joe H
*Mike: "I'm looking at the aspects of more stability, less hassles with lost time estimating and never getting the job and waiting for the phone to ring."IMHO, these "hassles" are the same for any business owner (regardless of industry), and you will probably have some version thereof even with a production shop. I certainly don't mean to be discouraging. More power to you for exploring different options. Even with stability, don't discount whether or not you enjoy the work. Or if you don't enjoy it, at least make enough money and have enough time left over for your "real" life.
*>You sound like you are in a position I would like to be in.Well, not really. I had a store before and had to give it up. This time I have a much better location and hope to do better.....we'll see. I framed my last job this winter..hitting sixty and the beams are getting too heavy. I look around and find I'm the last of the Mohicans... My goal is to make only about thirty thou a year for the rest of my life (no to retirement) this is reasonable. I don't think a young guy could make it in the upper end furniture business if he needed much more. (some do, but like any art, you need the name recognition) You can build the stuff, but it takes time (and who can afford employees anymore?)....and Chinese oak stuff sells for next to nothing........... This is fun for me (design/build) as the kids are gone and I have few bills....plus I have access to tons of really reasonable, beautiful wood. I have no market, just love to start new things .......and dive on in.......Life is a journey and I've always given up security for adventure......can you do that? what are your needs? Know before you start..............Stan has a good idea and he's right about the casing (I make some from time to time).
*mike.. most production shops go south because there is ALWAYS someone who will make it cheaper...but stan's friend making curved casing is niche work..find a niche and fill it bettter than anyone else and there won't be any room for the low-bidders in your niche..here's another example like stan's friend..friend of mine makes all the bungs (BUNGS !) for Jamestown Distributors.. and they are sold by mailorder all over the world..turns out it is cheaper for guys to buy bungs than make them..he gets cut offs from all the local boat yards,,so he makes iron wood, mahogany, teak, oak pine .. you name it. he cuts bungs.. had him make me a couple thousand TREX bungs a year ago....that's all he makes..bungs...and his trash is full of...you guessed it.. bung holes...hah, hah,hah....
*Wow, Quite a variety of replies here. All good too (aside from Mike's bunghole joke...although I did see that one coming).Yeah, I'm still in the decision stage of where to go with this. I've tried to make a decision matrix but it looked more like the Word Jumble in the daily paper.No matter what I did, I would be happy to make what Jim mentioned (around $30k) as to be honest, I'm not doing that continuously in my business now. I guess I'm just looking at I have such an investment in my shop (1,152 sq. ft. with a nice variety of tools, not bragging mind you just trying to justify not getting rid of them) that I feel I NEED to do something with them and unfortunatey remodeling and rennovation hasn't done it for me. I'm awaiting any decisions on the "3 house deal" but I hate to wait and see about things. I'd rather get the ball rolling and then try to juggle ten balls at once. ...and my neighbors wouldn't care. They've tolerated the 2 year operation of building the house and most are so darn curious as to what I'm doing, I could likley get some of them involved! Maybe even charge for tours of the shop? ;)Stan, What kind of investment do you think custom trim would warrant? Not putting you on the spot but is it something that I might be looking at needing $10-20k to get into? I bet something like that would work around here as there is only one show in town that does it and they are always busy and relatively high priced. Everywhere else you go ends up being a special order from out of state.Thanks for all the input guys. Man, deciding what you "want to be when you grow up" isn't for whimps!Mike
*Mike,I have a freind who is a custom kitchen remodeler. During Xmas actually about a month or two before Xmas He turns loose in his shop making custom waste baskets for high end gift shops. They pay him a pretty penny for them and they charge a whole lot more. There beautiful ebony inlayed when I first saw them I was very impressed.
*Michael - I did leaded art glass work for alot of years. Did a lot of one-off jobs of course, and they always consumed an inordinate amount of time by nature- we had to charge a lot and did make money, also we were the only studio in the area so there was plenty of work. But, we made the best money when we did larger projects, especially commercial when it involved some repetition. Typical might have been a restaurant with 100 window panels in five sizes all the same design motif, and maybe 30 light fixtures all the same. Couple times we looked into supplying door lites for window manufacturers, like a few thousand units, but we found out right away that there was no way to compete with the typical Asian outsourcing. So, to me the place to be would somewhere in the production limited run area, commercial like restaurants, banks, non-chain stores, etc.. I like Mike Smith's approach of finding a specialty niche, seems there are quite a few success stories in that approach.
*Michael: You can get a brand new Williams & Hussey machine for around $1900. Then as you do jobs, you start building up your knives. This way, the jobs pay for the knives and you are not sitting on $2000 outlay for knives. This machine will mould up to 7 inches wide and 8 inches thick. If you have a profile that is not standard, just trace it, fax this off to one of dozens of knife grinders, and you will have a set of knives for that profile. Knives typically run $125 to $200 for each profile. If it was a non-standard profile, I always charged for the knives on top of the work, unless it was a big order. Then, eventually you will have a nice selection of available profiles.Had I had to do it over again, I would have bought a $600 knife grinder. That thing would have paid for itself with just 4-5 sets of knives.So, with a modest $3000 investment, a little practice, and you will have a very good source of income.I must stress that this machine will make money on curved trim, but it is next to impossible to make money doing straight trim in standard profiles. There are too many competitors doing straight work.Now, if it is a special custom shape, then its a different story. You can supply your client with very custom mouldings.
*Stan, Thanks for the info. I may be doing some research into it as well.Mike
*>Man, deciding what you "want to be when you grow up" isn't Ha! I'm still deciding...but my choices are becoming rather limited. I'd say your shop is large enough to do just about anything ....as mine is just 800 jambed full of wood....and I do whole kitchens from time to time. .........One other thought..talk to the upper class builders about building "speciality" items for them such as mantles/surrounds....bookcases etc. ....anything a sub trimmer might not be able to handle.............or talk to new homeowners about the same thing.........I KNOW there's work there.......furniture also.Make some pretty things and enter an arts and crafts show.....meet the people. The biggest problem is marketing....make em love you.
*Michael:Jim made a good point I forgot to mention. I am always getting asked about fireplace surrounds. A person could stay very busy on those also.A Kreg pocket screw tool is just the thing for making surrounds and mantles.When I go into a house to measure for a stairway, there is a good chance to pick up curved trim jobs, mantles, surrounds, custom builtins, etc. I know I could add an amployee to my business and keep him busy without touching a stairway.
*Mike, I've been thinking about this a lot lately as doing everything from furniture to roofing is just no way to make a living. Every day is different, but it's no way to make a living. But the thought of producing the same exact thing over and over sounds deathly dull. I'm thinking that eventually I'll specialize in one area of trim work, kind of like what Stan does--reap the benefits of similar setups for each "production" run, but still have a little variety in each day. Think like a business man and once you've figured out the systems train a apprentice to do most of the work, and you can begin on another line...have a stair guy, a cabinet guy, a door guy...idealistic I know but it could work....Have you read Jim Tolpin's book "Working at Woodworking"? He describes both the production end and the business end of making simple cabinets. I've used many of his pruduction ideas with success. Still too repetetive for me and my A.D.D. tendencies, but effective.
*Stan:What kind of knife grinder would you have gotten? And where. I have an old W & H and this interests me. $600 seems to be very reasonable , although I think that translates to about a million Canadian.Thanks, Scott
*Stan, Have my Williams and Hussey machine now for about six years and love it but was put off by the cost of the cirular attachment back then...do you recall what the current cost of the attachment is now? Your idea is a really, really good one especially in my area where there are so many million dollar homes and up....the possibilities could be endless. Now ya got me thinkin'. Whats the difficulity in making the arches if any? Do you laminate your hardwoods like stair railings or just join pieces..do you have to make custom fences for each arch...give me the low down from your and your friends experiance if you wouldn't mind...I also always considered buying the knife grinder as well.....so you see....I've been in the same state of mind as you cept I got all involved in building this major spec house which is just about done...so now may be my moment to get back to that idea cause my backs about killin' me from this job I'm finishingThanks, Andy
*Scott: I cant recall the name of the knife grinder, but it was advertised in FH, and several woodworking magazines. I actually saw one in use and the best I can do is to tell you to call Michael VonBehren Builders, in Springfield, Il. There head trim man had the neatest little shop. His job was to make all the custom built ins and trim for their jobs. I watched him grind his own knives and like I said, I would have bought one if I had continued making curved trim.I will see if I can find the name of that machine and help you out.
*Andy: The cost of the circular attachment is $6-700. You can make one out of scraps of 3/4 inch melamine and three bearings for about $30.I made hundreds of arch trims with it until my stairbusiness took over. What I would do is use a simple radius formulae, and find the radius of the inside casing. I would then trammel cut patterns out of mdf that followed the radius and width of the desired casing. I would make my casing out of solid boards and never laminated them. These boards were edge glued in staggered blocks so as the grain all went the same direction, and the trim appeared to have been cut out of one board that was as wide as the trim is tall. The grain looks so much better if the trim is made of solid wood than if it is just a bunch of strips.Next I would lay the mdf pattern arch on the glued up stock and screw it together using screws that did not go in too deep. I would then jigsaw real close to the pattern, and finish with a flush cutting router bit. Now we have a piece of trim stock that is exactly flush cut with the pattern. This assembly is then fed through the circle jig on the Williams & Husseyand...out comes a piece of curved trim that looks like it was cut out of a solid board that was 24 inches wide, or whatever the height of the trim is.Sorry I dont have a picture, but I would be happy to take some for you in a few weeks. I have been wanting to mill some scotia trim with my machine that I sold. I will be going to this guys shop and could take some pictures of my ex machine and jigs.One other thing. After you have been making curved trim for awhile, you will end up with a nice assortment of various mdf patterns for different radii arches and trim widths. I kept all the radii marked on each pattern, and would usually be able and go over to my rack and pull off the desired arch.Many times also, I would take an arch that was say 38.5 inch radius, and cheat it about 1/2 inch radius either smaller or larger. This cheated radii change would stay put because it was screwed to the trim stock. Hope this helps, and ask anything, because there is more to explain between the lines.
*Stan, Damn, you've almost got me hooked! I'm seriously thinking about this as a possibility???Mike
*Michael: If you really know me, I will always try to give an honest opinion. This curved trim business is something else, but so is stairbuilding..I just had to make a choice between the two.
*Andy: I found the knife grinder out of a "Woodshop News" magazine. It is a Veil Profile Copying Grinding Machine. $699.00Tel. # 1-800-915-2601Basically, it works like a giant key cutting machine. You make your profile on plexiglass, and the guide follows the layout as it grinds the knives. I most definately would buy one, because the knives for that Williams & Hussey are about $50 dollars an inch. In otherwords, if you wanted a 4 inch casing profile, that set of knives will cost you $200. The knives can then be resharpened by just chucking them in the machine, and running the stylus over the plexiglass profile.Theres more to tell, please just ask.
*Stan, Very interested in how to build the radius attachment. If you get the time I'd sure love to see pictures. Can you do "eliptical" casings or just true circles? Reason I'm asking is I'd sure love to make casings that go around eliptical archways especially the ones in my spec home I live in. Wish you lived closer so I could come by...oh well. N.Y's a ways off from you I'm guessing. Going to definatly look into your idea in a big way. Thanks so much Stan. MAybe see you at the Doug Fest in Mass this year if it goes down. I hear even Andy Engel will be there....Hey Andy, will you sign our beer mugs and bring those canvas FH bags???The other Andy
*Andy: The jig does elliptical as well. What happens is the mdf pattern is guided through a trio of bearings. The one bearing at the top of the triangle is fixed, and the bottom two are attached to a sliding dovetail block that is spring loaded. Basically, the spring loaded bearings keeps the trim perpendicular to the cutterhead. You can cut full elliptical casings in one piece with this jig.It is hard to explain without pictures. I will try to get some in a few weeks.
*Stan Thanks dude. I'll be patiently awaiting your Kodochrome. Maybe I'll call W&H and get a brochure of the jig and I'll be able to understand more fully exactly what you've so genorously tried to explain. Thanks, Andy
*Stan,I've been following this thread with great interest. I have always been interested in W&H Moulder/Planer and wish I would of bought one when I first heard of them....I think they were about $500-$600 then. When you said you would glue up the blanks, did you use biscuits or anything else or just the glue? Thanks for all the info you've given. BTW are you located in Indiana, I live in Cincinnati, so we may not be too far apart.
*Jeff: I am 30 miles north of Champaign, Il., or about 100 miles south of Chicago.When I glue up the blanks, it is all edge grain glued. In other words, just like gluing boards edge to edge. The glue joint is stronger than the wood itself. If one were to use biscuits, the biscuit or mortise for the biscuit may show when the wood is profiled.Andy or anyone else: ask anything, I am not afraid to type. :)
*Thanks Stan,I misunderstood and was thinking end grain. Thats why I was wondering about biscuits.I'm sure I'll think of more questions, so I'll ask when I do!Thanks again....Jeff
*Stan, I'v been messing around with some numbers ($$$) and was wondering what your thoughts were? Do you think you would charge per the piece or per foot, etc. For the curved runs, materials would obviously not be outrageously high as even with high end stock, if you end up gluing up a few smaller pieces, the overall cost wouldn't be too much as not much length is needed. I guess the costs would be the inital knife cost which would be reduced once you had a nice library of knives established. I'm still thinking about this, who to market to. pricing, etc. Mainly just brainstorming for ideas...Thanks.Mike
*Michael: I always charged by the piece. The material really was inconsequential. Its all mostly labor. I would typically charge $125-$150 per casing if it were paint grade, another $25 for stain grade. This was for diameters up to around 5 feet. Then I would charge proportionately more for larger diameters. $200 was about where my prices peaked.The thing about it is that you could glue up your stock at the last hour of the day. Go out in the morning and mill out a pile of trim. The work will go in spurts, but with occasional campaigning, one can keep it rather steady. The jobs that are really lucrative are the upper end homes. These typically have arched windows and arched interior openings throughout.Also, a little selling on your part while the contractor/client are building the house can persuade common door openings having just plain straight casings, into ones with your arched casing adorning them.
*Stan, Thanks for the info. I'm still thinking...thinking...thinking.Mike
*Michael: One more thing...It is the best little sideshow I have ever come across. I worked several years fulltime as a trim carpenter with this little machine supplementing my income. I would go out after work, glue up my stock, and then Saturday morning I would run some trim. Usually just a few hours, and I could match my income from working fulltime. This machine was a determining factor when I decided to set up my stairshop. I knew it would at least keep the family from starving, and it exceeded that.Like I said...I had to decide between this and stairways. I sold it to a friend, because basically I have my cake and can eat it too. When I need something milled, I can use my ol machine. I always compensate my friend for it however. It is better for me that it is out of my shop, because I am always running across curved trim jobs. I at least have the temptation removed from my shop.
*That is interresting Stan that you feel that way about that machine. I havent ran a bazooka in several years, but I wont sell it or any of my other tools that I know how to run. You mentioned keeping your family from starving. Funny, that has always been in the back of my head. You are very generous for sharing , thank you.
*Tim: If the time comes when my stairwork isnt keeping my 40 hours occupied, I will immediately buy another Williams & Hussey. After I went 100% stairs, I never used it. So, I let it go to someone whom I could if needed, rent it for a little job.
*Stan,I've been following this thread with great interest. I've been trying to come up with a sideline gig for myself, since my wife is now staying home with our son full time.I'm in a fairly rural location, with the nearest medium sized city being 1 hr away. Houseing construction and remodling has been steady around here, but not booming like some parts of the country. I wonder if your successes story would be repeatable here or not.I'm wondering what kind of market you have around you, and how much that contributed to your "niche-market" success story. How did you spread the word with GC's that you provided this service?Thanks again. Your're being very generous with your time and knowledge.
*Stray: I live in a small town of 4500. Champaign-Urbana Il. is 30 miles to the south with 100,000. Bloomington-Normal, Il. about 100,000 to the west 50 miles.You have to know how to make the trim first, of course. This will make you much more sellable. I would just hit the road and gather phone numbers. When I have gone into a strange town, I have had good luck by contacting the Pella window dealer. Almost every big area has one, and these guys can steer you to the upperend contractors. Other major suppliers work well also. Networking is a good practice to follow. Everyone knows someone that you dont. Have some business cards printed up, and keep checking back. After awhile, word of mouth takes over, and its off and running.
*Thanks Stan,That actually sounds similar to my region in demographics. Good point about gettin' the skill down first!
*I think Fine Homebuilding did an article about making curved trim using the W&H. It's probably been 5-10 ten years ago. I'll search for it and when I find it I'll let you guys know.Jeff
*Jeff: Youre right, I had forgotten about that article. I have it and I will try to fing which issue it is in.
*thank you for your advise and i would love to see your pictures im a new member and I don't know to respond and quite youse this site yet but I will save your advise in my file. again thank you
*Andre,Welcome aboard!Rich Beckman
*Andre: Glad to have you on. That moves everyone up one notch. :)