OK, so I paint my new ceiling with Benjamin Moore super flat ceiling white about a month ago. Last week, I inadvertently put a mark on the ceiling. about two feet off the corner of where it meets one wall. No problem, I have the gallon of the paint still. So I use a brush, apply a little paint (3″ diamater circle, or so) and use the bristles to stipple the paint to match the roller texture.
Well, in the right light, you can make out the spot. Not evident unless you know it’s there, but I can see it. It looks a little “shadowy”, like the outer edges of the spot are duller than the rest. Why the heck wouldn’t it blend exactly if it’s the same gallon of paint, and a super flat finish? Any thoughts. Thanks.
Replies
Was this a one coat job? Chances are that would explain this.
If not, (and if so, for that matter), you could try to touch-up again by using a roller and feather the touch-up out to nothing.
Thanks for the input. Here are the stats:
1 coat primer
2 coats Ben Moore flat white
Same gallon as used in 2nd coat
No lap marks
One more reason to not sweat the little stuff, I guess. In the whole scheme of things, this is insignificant.
You know this is bugging you, get out a roller and feather in a touch-up.
Now that I have thought about this, ceilings are one of the least forgiving surfaces to finish, nevermind touch-up. Typical painting tech says cut in then roll because you will always see the difference and rolling last minimizes it. Touching up rolled surfaces with a brush should be saved for closets.
And keep sweating the small stuff, more often than not you will avoid big problems. ;-)
Maybe you should have used a roller. But you are right that flat paint, especially the quality of BM, should blend very well. That's the beauty of it.
The First thing that comes to mind is that the paint didn't cover well the first time, and what you are seeing is a lap mark. If that's the case then the ceiling needs another coat anyway. If not, I'm stumped. I'll be interested to hear how you fix it.
Yup, only 2 things come to mind. Inadequate coverage the first time around, or my second guess is cure time. Paint has to cure out and will undergo slight color change in doing this. But my own experiences make me question that too - oils do it very apparently, but most latex I've ever come across are already the done deal color wise in a couple of hours. My second hole in my own theory is flat white doesn't have much color to try and change to start out with. I gotta go with putting on a second coat.
It can be a number of things , you pick one , since you were there ;
Did you stir the paint from the bottom up the first and last time ?
Did you box all paint together before you started ?
Are you sure this is "THE " same gallon?
How many coats were put on ? If it was barely enough , you have a small section covered better .
You mention a sheen in a different light . Thats because the finish in the paint is laying on top now , more than the other . After all its had one more coat. Good paint in flat still has a finish of satin . The more coats the more the satin comes to the surface.
The best thing to do at this point is forget about it , or repaint the ceiling. Next time put two coats beforeyou quit and box the paint before you get started. No manufactor gaurentees the very same color in each bucket, and most reccomend boxing on the pail.
Tim Mooney
This wont make you feel better , but if you would have used a ceiling paint , which is a paint with no finish in it [cheap paint] , it would have touched up. You bought a washable paint , there for there is a vinyal finish in it, making more finish where you touched up. Try a really cheap paint sometime , and you will see what I mean . I mix drywall mud in paint the first coat toblend the area from the joints . I lay two caots of this on the ceiling on a slick job , calling it done . It touches up very well. [chaulky finish , like texture]
Tim Mooney
Thank you Tim; That is about the third time in a week that you have helped in my education. I am forever grateful to you for the insights. You are tha Man!! Thanks again.
Dan
Thanks for the kind words and of course , you are welcome .
Tim Mooney
Tim, that reply should have been posted over in "Crazy Construction Techniques".
"Tim, that reply should have been posted over in "Crazy Construction Techniques".
Ive already been nick named Goofy, so to be protected from another nickname , thats not the main reason I use mud in paint . When ever you are called on to provide a slick finish to a drywall ceiling , at least "in certain light " , many times it will show the joints and nail spots . The reason this happens is the different texture between the drywall and the mud . Drywall is really a rough , uneven paper , that soaks the solids in paint very well. Add that to a sanding pole to help rough it up more . Of course after sanding the mud is very slick. It occurred to me many years ago that it should have something "bridge " it all over to be the same before finishing . A finisher can really knock him self out , on a slick finish, only to get his work "raped" by a home owner in poor painting practices , such as putting semi gloss or satin paint directly on the drywall. Some times propainters spray the work , not hiding anything . I got tired of this years ago , getting called back , having to explain it . I might say that they didnt appreciate the explanation after they spent the money on paint and labor. I devised a plan .
Every job I did whether I was just the drywall guy , or the painter too, I sold the job "PRIMED" . Mud mixed in paint [ four gallon box to a gallon of paint ] assured me than under a spot light cast across the ceilling the finish would be the same . Also that mix runs me about 2.00 to 3.00 per gallon .
Tim Mooney
Tim I am intrested in your drywall paint/prime method. let me see if I understand. You mix one gallon primer to one box of premixed mud? Then is this applyed in traditional fashion roller and roller pan? How long do you have to wait to recoat with your paint? Does the surface finish have a higher texture to it than normal? Thanks intresting finish.
Well, in the first place , I just use a gallon of paint left over somewhere if available . A color in pastel is ok , because the four gallons of mud eat up the color. Latex house paint is fine . I buy mis matched colors in pastel for a 1.00 per gallon. This is the application I have in mind when I buy it. I also have a lot of overruns my self.
The mix can be anything you want nearly, by putting as much as three gallons of water with it , makes it pretty thin. The second coat of is where you get the texture , as most of the first coat will sink in, leaving very little on top. I usually go with just the mix and maybe up to a gallon of water. This is choice . 3 gallons of water in the mix will prime the rock though, for a very smooth ceiling . I will also mention that 5 minutes per ceiling is spent knocking boogers down . This is common with any texture . Ive got 24 inch knifes on handles that do the same thing . One is straight for the walls , and one is angled for the ceiling .
There are two ways I put it on . One is a hopper , and then rolled out wet . The other is five gallon bucket and a screen and a nine inch roller.
You will know when its dry , because it will turn painted look white . [if white was used ]
Block filler can be used also with out mixing mud with it. Its pretty smooth.
I would be happy to answer any questions about it .
Tim Mooney
I really like that idea. I noticed that problem 20 some years ago on a basement remodel where the homeowner wanted a smooth finish. The only solution I thought of was going over all the sheetrock with mud and a knife. Didn't want to do that, so in the end we just left it with the texture difference. Thanks for the tip.
Your welcome . I guess I need to mention that I use regular joint compound , because of the binders in it . Cant beat it for a grabbing primer. Plus three wouldnt hold near that much water and it would be soft after it was dry . I ment to say a pole sander above and I didnt get it done . LOL!
This can make some very quality work . I didnt mention that before , but it draws comments how it was done that uniform and slick. Of course its really not slick , but its decieving . I would do it in a very expensive home because of quality, or I would do a spec because of cost . Its very economical.
Another thing is that it covers minute boo boo stuff .
Tim Mooney
Tim,
Just curious as to why you do not use a PVA primer instead of mixing the paint with the mud. Both techniques work, but using the PVA primer is faster.
There are two types of PVA primer. One is a Poly Vinyl ACETATE, and the other is a Poly Vinyl ACRYLLATE. Both do the exact same thing - they blend those two mismatched surfaces (drywall mud/texture and drywall paper) and make the paint cover evenly. I have even used PVA primer for a wooden door that I had to repair with epoxy. The surface was evenly covered when painted, with no signs whatsoever that an epoxy was used.
Just curious...James DuHamel
"The Power Zone" http://www.thepowerzone.org
Ok.
What makes PVA faster for you ? Spraying it ? If you spray it , it doesnt work at all because you simply dont get millage build. Lets just use millage numbers . You would be hard put to get 1 mill out of PVA, its like water . I get 6 to 10 mills per coat out of mud and paint . The mud mix costs me just over a dollar per gallon , compared to 12 dollars a gallon for PVA. If you roll each , neither is faster . An airless will gain a couple of hours over a hopper on a whole house . But if you dont back roll it , your wasting your money buying it . I sprayed Pva on a new house over my wipe down texture . I coated it with flat over that . [I was working labor only on the painting , so I tryed to make it faster] I used an airless for both , but didnt back roll. It didnt pass me ! I rolled another top coat over it and could not get it straightened up to suit me. I did leave it .
Now the positive over PVA. Mud mix will cover scatches , small over laps , and mostly , put a last coat on nails. If you have a bad spot , you can roll the mud an extra time and it will disapear. Depressions and bumps are the only thing it doesnt cover . I am able to make a blimish free ceiling with mud .
Tim Mooney
usg makes a pva primer sealer that dose just what your are talking about, it is thick stuff that can only be applied with an airless, first you scratch coat the whole area then after that you dump it on. it goes by the name tuff hide and judging by the solids at the bottom of the bucket it is about the same ratio as the home brew you describe. i think the cost is around 30 - 40 dollars per 5gal bucket. i use it everywhere and it will cover up light to moderate boo boo's ( sections of seams that did not get feathered completely etc, but not deep scratches or dimples).
James you are using the right thing , the only thing on textured work you should use.
PVA , just isnt the best on slick work.
Tim Mooney
Tim, your stunt will set you up for failure down the road. Any paint system is only as strong as it's base, and your "base" is junk. Over the years, as these ceilings are painted, you are very likely to see peeling back to the board.
But what do I know?
"Tim, your stunt will set you up for failure down the road. Any paint system is only as strong as it's base, and your "base" is junk. Over the years, as these ceilings are painted, you are very likely to see peeling back to the board. "
If you had researched what I said it would have given you knowledge that you dont seem to offer in your statement. Since you dont mind showering negatives with out found knowledge , I will be happy to set you straight .
USG joint compound has more binders than any latex paint . USG joint compound has more binders in it than any acoustic texture made including wall texture . USG joint compound is a structural agent used in binding drywall seams ,including seams with no backing ! So sir , your statement would mean that all drywall seems are junk , and we would be setting are selfs up for failure in haveing these seams "peel back to the board ". So, all homes with drywall are junk!
I really try to avoid conflict , but you gave me no choice .
Tim Mooney
No grief here bud, bring it on. That is what this place is all about, and maybe we will both learn something, ok?
All I am saying is that when you thin down the mud, so that you have an acceptable finish, you have undermined the properties of the product, (and if the mud is such a superior base, why add paint?). We are also looking at this from two different prospectives. You are looking at making a flat ceiling look good, and I am looking at long term performance.
Did you ever wet sand? Do you know why that fails? The mud is watered down too much and the finish paint fails to make a bond, everything will blow off. You Will see this in extreme conditions in short order. Luckily for you your stunt won't be an issue for some time down the line, but I build for things to last. You said you were building 6 mils per coat, after two coats of your system you are likely to measure your mils 'o garbage with a tape. You are also incorrect on just about anything you spoke of of paint chemistry, maybe you and James can compare notes, I think he has forgotten more than I ever knew.
To me this is just another drywaller stunt, and I think I have seen enough of them, thank you.
This is the second time you have implied I know nothing, and I guess that is because I don't agree with you. Be the bull if you want, but I have been playing this game for more than a few years. Let me turn this on you, prove to me what you suggest is proper. If you wonder why I think your game won't work I can give you many examples.
Tag, you're it.
I dont think that you are interrested in my reply any more than I can fly. But , Im going to give you one more to answer your post .
Ive been in this business for 32 years . I havent pulled this trick near that long . Im going to make a guess at 20. I ran a drywall and painting business for 22 years full time . I will tell you that I have never seen mud pull away that has been used as texture . Ive seen a lot of acoustic pull for bonding reasons and water damage. I have retraced my work in this period of time many times , but it was an experiment to start with I will agree. The reason why I never had a problem with trying it was that its the same as orange peel , splatter, or knock down. The water in the mix I use is the same as taping mud for my bazooka . The reason I use paint in it is because I can spray a coat of paint on top of it or leave it on a ceiling if I choose to. This method has worked the best for me for some applications . On a job that had a blown wall texture , I would use PVA primer . The application I use the mixed mud for is "slick work" . Im better using this method than any other for this application , and it has worked many years for me . I was just answering the original question and I have been asked to explain to this point . Everything I have to say has been said . If you choose to not like it , thats your option .
Tim Mooney
Tim, you didn't invent this trick, my brother in law used to do it, and I have seen it cause failures. Most often in garages and baths, but occationally elsewhere. In a perfect world it probably wouldn't be an issue, and it probably wouldn't be an issue if it doesn't get painted over.
Maybe the area you live in doesn't have the humidity and temp changes mine does, or maybe you aren't thinning the mud as much as I assumed you were, but you said you were building 6 mils per coat and that is pretty thin.
I'm just advising caution, but I have to tell you that I really don't care what anyone does to their houses as long as I don't have to deal with the mess.
Tim. so far the thread has been limited to new work. what if texture vs. the mud + paint alternative is used on a repair adjacent to a painted surface, where the texture/mud + paint is applied to the painted surface to some degree (let's say latex enamel)?
a) mud + paint application ("texture"), paint.
b) "texture", pva prime, paint
c) pole sand, "texture", paint
d) presand, prime, "texture", reprime, paint?
e) none of the above
i want to see how committed you are to your method in this real world example...
brian
"(let's say latex enamel)? "
You just changed the ball game . Oil primer and then proceed.
" I want to see how committed you are to your method in this real world example..."
What is this ? A test ?
Tim Mooney
to some degree... i just listed the various alternatives that came to mind, leaving the wiggle room for your response with the "none of the above".
i routinely observe texture applied to repairs without priming surrounding enamel paints (+ included the concept of prescuffing enamels). i didn't want the novices to be left with the impression that your use of the word "primer" for your paint + mud mix to be misconstrued as eliminating the need for a primer for painted surfaces being "textured".
i do appreciate the value of your contribution to this thread. i've done it before. would do it again (though probably not for company work for a client - simply unconventional and i'd be hard pressed to persuade a construction superintendent to allow it ;-).
now, i'm considering using your same mix for orange peel texture on some kitchen ceiling repairs. we are priming with Kilz prior to painting and the textured repairs are flashing. guess we'll try PVA primer instead.
thanx,
brian
"now, i'm considering using your same mix for orange peel texture on some kitchen ceiling repairs. we are priming with Kilz prior to painting and the textured repairs are flashing. guess we'll try PVA primer instead."
That tells me you already sprayed the orange peel and painted it , if its flashing.
Any way; Tape your repairs first and finish, prime the whole ceiling[kilz], orange peel the ceiling , PVA primer , top coat. Orange peel will not do the same thing as the mud rolled on , because its not 100 percent coverage.
This mud that you are spraying on is no different than the application of rolling it for your superintendant to veiw as practical. Lets back up here and say that the rolled on mud doesnt have to have paint in it . If this is the confusing factor to above posts , it shouldnt be. The basic principle of rolling mud is the very same as spraying mud as a texture. There are many people who put paint in accoustic also. I guess if someone was cynical about putting paint in it they could surely use two coats of top coat on top of rolled mud and you would have tackier mud for bonding. Any way remodel is always to be construed differently because you" know not", before you got there .
Tim Mooney
So you saying a skim coat is gonna fail?
Wrong, if ya are. Joint compound is one of the sticker things out there.
Tim's had some "goofy" ideas in the past....this ain't one!
Jeff..............Al-ways look on......the bright......side of life...........
.......whistle.....whistle.......whistle........
I didn't say a skim coat will fail, Jeff.
Thanks for the reply Tim.
Here, everything has a strong texture to it. I do not remember ever seeing a house here with smooth walls or smooth ceilings. Maybe that's the difference.
I use PVA primer for one specific reason - to bridge the two different surfaces. I do not use it to cover scratches, dings, screw heads, etc... It was not made for that purpose. It is made to bridge the surface differences, and allow the top coat of paint to cover evenly. In every instance that I have used a PVA primer, I have not been able to see where the texture/mud was applied. These surfaces look no different than the paper surfaces of the drywall. In our cases here, there's lots of texturei between.
I buy PVA primer by the 5 galon bucket, so I only pay about $8 0r $9 a gallon. Pretty cheap insurance for me.
Have a great weekend!!! James DuHamel
"The Power Zone" http://www.thepowerzone.org
Could you explain a little more about why you mix drywall mud to the paint and what is the recipe?
What you are asking is in the posts above . Un less there is something else you would like to ask.
Tim Mooney
You'all need some comic relief. I've a true story of real stickability knowing we are all aware that the cobbler's son gets his shoes fixed last.
In the middle 80s I rented a house that had a hole in the kitchen ceiling drywall where a roofing vent wasn't flashed correctly and would catch twigs and leaves and build up water to leak. I opted for a previously untried experiment to fix the hole with the least amount of effort since it was not a paying job. The whole was about 3 or 4 inches long, an inch wide, with the paper of the drywall curling back up into the hole.
I went and got some contact paper, you know...sticky on one side, poor folks use it as shelfliner over roach dropping stains. I carefully made a rounded patch to eliminate corner pull up and pulled the backing off and placed it over the hole. Attentively running a fingernail and other flat edges over the patch to secure the stickum to the painted ceiling. I then rolled a couple coats of paint over the patch to blend it in. Numerous coats over the years continued to hide the booger.
It wasn't until 2001 that the patch became noticable when I wasn't around and a painter aquaintence I had showed the patch to went and stuck his finger in it making a new hole in the process for whatever reason. Coulda killed him for that. I'm convinced that patch would still be there to this day.
And that's the rest of the story.
Let the thunder crack and the waves roar.
We're going on.
Edited 10/30/2002 10:03:02 PM ET by rez
So you got a little lippy and decided against it huh?
Roar! Let the thunder crack and the waves roar.
We're going on.
And this is over last night, over my smile I presume .
I was just going to say that your story was an exellent example of what mud and paint does that took years for the paint build up to do. You meant it in a funny way , but it was more serious than you realized. Actually you had the zoom lense on !
I deleted it because I thought the thread had heard enough on the subject .
Tim Mooney
Actually my comment 'What exactly do you mean by that?' was in reference to an old post dealing with the Man from the Organization. A little attempt at humor. Apparently very little. And feeble at best.
I'd still like to nail that guy who poked a hole in my patch tho'!
In the meantime...
Roar! Let the thunder crack and the waves roar.
We're going on.
Tim, I was going to send you an e-mail, and maybe it would be better that I do, but here we are.
Oh ####, I have to go.
Gawd, you make it out like I am giving you personal grief, I am not.
I have seen problems arise and I am trying to give a heads up. Excuse my style, I am busy as hell and I have crap for time to even read this place, never mind respond to anything.
okay, Qtrmeg. so you must not be a proponent of using thinned compound as a texture coat material. your prediction is that it will peel off the walls? maybe you would be happier if latex additive or floetrol was used as a thinning agent in whole or in part?
Edited 11/6/2002 11:00:19 PM ET by brian smith
What I was trying to point out was that you May run into trouble down the line if you build up a paint system using an over-thinned mud as a base. That's all. The more coats of paint you add, the more likely it is to have a problem. I think I also mentioned that there are environmental conditions that may or may not aggravate the situation.
I really couldn't follow what you were saying in your next post, but it brought to mind another potential problem. I think Tim is mostly recommending the coating over bare rock & mud, a surface that we can say rates a 10 for adhesion, but if you are applying something similar over alkyd based Kilz the surface rates something like a 3.
Fyi, I almost never use mud without thinning. The only "additive" I use in water based products is water, no soap, Flotrol, no nothing. I have added paint to mud and texture, for various reasons, but I would rather not if I don't have to.
my concern is that selling mud + paint as "preprimed" is not so much that "overthinned" mud when mixed with paint does not bind as well to a substrate (adhesion). Who knows. It's working for Tim.
imho, what you are actually pointing out is a question of whether the paint in the mud is actually sealing that adhesion layer from moisture (introduced with the repainting down the road that you point out). when introduced on an enamelled surface in a repair, the moisture in successive paint jobs may well penetrate through the mud + paint layer if no PVA is used on top of it.
my point about adding latex was centered around increasing the sealing ability of the paint + mud layer.
the point about adding floetrol was centered around not diluting at all. Using water dilutes the paint + mud. Using paint conditioner would help the material flow without requiring excessive amounts of H2O.
there may be a middle ground that may alleviate some of your concerns...
on the project that we are working on, the owner's crew is providing the materials and we are given mud for texture, Kilz for priming prior to painting, and paint - all the ingredients in Tim's approach. it takes 4 coats of Kilz to seal the texture coats. i requested PVA for all future sealing. i'll probably get it.
we will continue to use the Kilz to pre-prime the enamel before texturing as Tim suggested, because the Kilz may have an adherence factor of 3 on your scale, but enamel would have an adherence factor of 0.
understand that i intend to use PVA over thinned mud texture to alleviate flashing. Tim's approach has appeal and merit in his applications and it's working for him. the limited sealing capability of the paint in a texture may work as well to cure flashing. i have to be a little more concerned because i'm working with a different beast in the remodelling game. i may use his approach for simple orange peel texturing on kitchen and bath enamelled surfaces. that, plus i got caught up in the binding properties" argument, is why i chose enamel as my substrate example. after thinking about it, it's when flat paint is used that would present more problems for Tim's method because the enamel topcoat would, more than likely, seal his base from moisture introduced in future recoats. the moisture in successive applications of flat paint will penetrate the underlying layers and may well lead to the failures you anticipate.
you only use commercial texturing products, period?
brian
Saw a drywaller last week "patch" a misplaced round electrical box. Cut styrofoam to fit *tight*! in the hole, squeezed it in just under flush, and put durabond 20 min over it, texturing with an old paintbrush. You never knew it was there. I was impressed.
Why not patch it with drywall? I can just see something bumping into the wall at the spot where the styrofoam is and leaving a huge dent. Down the road, if anyone tries to sand off the texture to wallpaper they're going to have problems too. Doesn't seem like fine homebuilding to me.
"A completed home is a listed home."
Well, you're entitled to your opinion. I don't know how many round boxes are in your wall, but for most of us that pretty much designates ceiling, as would matching a texture in most cases. I don't know that I've ever heard of anyone wanting to strip the texture off a ceiling so they could paper it, but this repair probably wouldn't impede that if they were so motivated. Next time you want to be critical, either change your approach or have a clue what you're talking about.
Sheesh, touchy, touchy. Where I live both walls and ceilings are usually textured. I have wall sconces with round boxes in my own home. Wallpaper is often applied to ceilings, and I have sanded down two ceilings myself just for this purpose. The questions remains - why not patch with a piece of sheetrock?
Cluelessly yours,Lisa
"A completed home is a listed home."
Apparently because he didn't feel it was necessary to make a bigger hole in order to remove the errant box.
Quit foolin' around, you could have rerolled the entire ceiling in the time we've spent trying to figure what went wrong. YOU know it's gonna wake you up at night, and YOU know thet WE are all gonna KNOW you have a less than perfect job out there, so do us both a favor and do the right thing......repaint it all. Your conscience will thank you in the morning.
well , you could stop looking at it
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I vote for dimmer lights.
Jeff..............Al-ways look on......the bright......side of life...........
.......whistle.....whistle.......whistle........
You have a few replies and have some excellent advice. I believe the problem you are facing is something called flashing. It's kind of like marks on your carpet after you vacuum, its all the same carpet, but different colors. It could be alot of things, the paint settled, brush vs roller, extra coat, I don't know. You can try feathering the patch with a roller, but if you have reflection occuring on that section of ceiling from a window or a light fixture its going to be tough to fix. The next time you put a small mark on the ceiling, take a very small brush, and just touch up the mark. Keep it small and stop looking up, it'll drive you crazy.
sometimes board sometimes knot