I need a little advice from the experts.
I am meeting an architect today to talk about me taking a job as a project manager on a new ICF house. As a carpenter, contractor, housebuilder, renovator, the job of project management has mostly seemed to just go with the territory. I have always enjoyed having all the strings in my own hands and I can handle this job easily.
The jobs I have found to be less satisfying have been the ones where I wasn’t in charge like where I’ve been brought in as a subcontractor to build the shell of a house and I haven’t been able to tell the plumber or electrician or whatever, “I want it done this way”.
The hard part for me will be to define the scope of work, liability and responsibility and the rate of pay because I have never had to break it out of the whole job before and I’m feeling my way on this. One thing I know for sure is that I want clear definitions but I don’t know where the pitfalls are. How much does a project manager make? And for what, exactly, do they make it? Can anyone help me on this?
Some background on this job: the customer used to live across the road from where I built this architect’s ICF house ten years ago and she has known him and his family and his house for that long. His job went like clockwork. I was on that jobsite for four months from the time I stuck my chainsaw into a tree there until the family moved in (on Christmas Eve). The architect himself was largely absent because of the pressure of other work.
Back in April, the customer and I were just beginning to talk about me building her place when I took a fall on the job. I had turned her job down because I had too much on my plate then, but I haven’t worked since i fell and my jobs have evaporated. I’m only just limping around now and still can’t do much physical work. After a long search, she has found somebody she believes can build the place but has no faith in their ability to manage a complicated job efficiently or communicate effectively. She had hoped to start this job in May or June.
Ron
Replies
Why not just do it as the gc and sub out all the work? Maybe do some trim or painting if you recover by then. If you built the archy's house, then you'll be doing the same thing, but without breaking a sweat ... but you'll have plenty of headaches and indegestion.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
before your fall, did you charge diiferent rates when u did different aspects of a job? i suspect not.
charge your usuall rate for the job when u had the whole shebag.
where you may need to put some thought is how many hours to apply, where before you were multitasking and now you're not. how many hours do you need to be on site and how many hours would you lose not doing something else etc etc. what u figured in the back of your mind, you now have to bring forword, and the spec/scope of work/authority of your position is important.
hip shot. someone mentioning your GCing, but you mentioned she found someone, maybe using (can't remember the name) sytem where you don't charge O&P on that sub, but put it all on labor and then you GC with them as a sub. customer sees the $ she heard from them and u still cover everthing on your labor, and you are in charge of the other guy.
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bobl Volo, non valeo
Gents, thanks.
I haven't yet spoken to the customer and I don't know what commitments she has made. All I know is what she wants and that's a project manager.
I just got back from meeting with the architect. He didn't design this house. He's a good friend of the customer and her mother and he knows me and was asked or offered to try to get us together
The house was designed by another architect I have worked with. A good guy. He doesn't miss much. I've got the drawings in front of me - interesting project! It's a hybrid of ICF and wood frame. Solar heat with wood stove backup. Site is a six minute drive from home.
Ron
I don't have alot of information to give the best of advice but there's little hints that this may not be the greatest project to cut your teeth on.
Sounds like she looking for a backup for herself in managing the job. She lacks the expertise but wants to control all the players.
Project management comes with legal responsibilities and therefore demands total control and has to be outlined in documentation. A signed agreement with a full description of the mandate.
What you should consider is to take on the role of an advisor at a set rate per hour for your time.
Gabe
there were quite a few guys around here who started doing PM after their companies went bankrupt..
they would even give seminars on it at some of the trade shows..
they wrote the contracts, solicited the bids of all subs... authorized payment, inspected and rode herd on the GC..
they had zero liability.. their fee was in the neighborhood of 15% of the project cost..
i never understood why anyone would use another layer of control above the GC... but , that's the way they did itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Gabe,
You're perfectly right: she does lack the expertise and does want to control all the players - through the agency of a projet manager. As for responsibity and liability, authority and control, well that's what I expect to negotiate. In this trade, there is no statutory liability that supersedes a contract. I am hoping for some guidelines on what is common in the business and where the rocks and reefs are.
Mike
Sounds like a lovely arrangement. I don't yet know what commitments the customers have made, but I assume that if they want a PM then they will be the GC and everybody else subcontracting. 15 % eh? I had my sights a lot lower than that.
Ron
It sounds like you are in the drivers seat. Its gotta be pretty hard to find someone you can trust to handle all your affairs and if you make them comfortable in knowing you have the expertise to get the quality they demand then dont be affraid to get paid a decent living.
I think as a PM you should get at least 15 percent of the project budget. When someone does a cost/plus job with tools on they are getting 15% plus an hourly rate.
Maverick,
You and Mike have got me raising my sights and maybe adding for windage too.
Ron
I would be surprised if a PM would get 15% of the budget. The level of risk just doesn't seem great enough to justify this. A GC has a lot more direct financial involvement and a lot more direct responsibility for the final product.
We are working with a PM for the first time right now. We are usually the GC. I will ask him what his arrangement is today.
I think that goes to the essence of the thing: the degree of liability can be negotiated and a greater degree of responsibility should mean a bigger bill. Perhaps we could be thinking about a portion of the fee, a kind of a bonus, held in trust by a third party for a year to be paid if nothing goes wrong. Might be hard to define, though.
Ron
The guy we are working with is in a similar position to you; he can't do the job himself. In his case it is because he is too small a company to actually do the work. In addition the project is too ill defined for a gc or even the subs to give a bid price. He was hired for one reason; they trust him. It's not too bad a reason and we will do our best to make him look good. That's why he hired us.
So I met the clients last night and I have a job. We still haven't defined the terms of this job but I'm starting to make up a complete spec and material list and line up some subs, which I'll do for time and expenses. It's a good looking house and a complicated project. Could be fun, but I still have a contract to negotiate.
It seems taht finding somebody to assemble the place could be hard. Everybody who's worth a pinch of shet around here is working already. Subtrades are easier to find than carpenters. There are no more carpenters. Time to rasie the rates, gents.
Ron
You told me that the plumber was qualified and had done a good job and look at the mess that he made, toilets don't flush right, pipes are leaking and my brother in law's neighbors son says that it's not to code.
I'm going to sue both of you for damages.
Trust me, there's always liability in management.
Gabe
gabe.. depends on how the contract is written.. believe me.. these guys had no assets.. but a good contract... the Homeowner and the contractors were the ones holding the liability..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
It's true that if you want to screw someone and you have a little legal knowledge that you can do a good job of it.
But we're talking about someone who wants to protect himself as opposed to someone who wants to screw someone else.
The original question was asking if there was any pitfalls to look out for and the answer is most definitely. It's not just a question of how much to charge but how much will you still have at the end of the project.
If you sell yourself off as an expert or even take on the role of an expert then your comments, recommendations and decisions will also take on a level of responsibility.
Otherwise what are you being paid for?
Gabe