We just had the propane cooking discussion, but what about clothes driers? Option is electric vs. gas drier converted to propane.
Any opinions? Any opinions based on actual experience?
Thanks, Joe H
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every trailer trash neighbor in my neck of the woods have one, nuthin new
Johnny, it's new to me in Southern Cal. Gas comes out of a pipe in the ground, pay the bill every month and it keeps on coming. Moving to the Twilight Zone appliancewise. Joe H
Hey Brownbagg, I guess that makes me trailer trash, funny though, the appraisers seem to think this "trailer" of mine is worth over three hundred thousand bucks. Apparently you live amidst trailer trash? It's quite a drive to the nearest trailer from where I live.
We've been using a gas clothes dryer for twenty years, actually the same one, come to think of it. How many electrics last that long? We moved to where we are now and converted our gas dryer to LP since their are no natural gas lines here. It's a simple changeover including different orifices. The thing sounds like it's incinerating our clothes but we've never had a problem. It's cheaper than electric here.
LeeLee Grindinger
Furniture Carver
Put it this way, the house got real close to being livable around mid Nov. I watch the neighbor four year old throw a kitten twenty feet in the air. His mama would not do anything so I sold my trailer for ONE DOLLAR and was out by midnight. Best thing I ever did. It so peaceful in the new house. No dogs, camaro on blocks, loud music or beer cans in the yard. I kept watching "COPS" to see if the trailer needed painting.
I moved from an area with natural gas to an area without. Converted the Whirlpool over to run on LP, works great. As with most parts of the country, electric heat for warmth or for drying is usually a more expensive option than fossil fuels. The benefit of an electic clothes dryer is that you can safely vent the "exhaust" into the house when you want to add heat and moisture, and wires are easier to run than pipes, generally.
I don't have a clue what the others are talking about.
Natural gas always costs less than other options to operate. Propane usually costs less than electric. Burning some kind of gas will be a lot quicker than electric. Like 50 mintues for a dryer load instead of 100 minutes.
"I don't have a clue what the others are talking about." I think they're saying, "You gotta love a place where the houses have wheels and the cars don't."
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Jeez, my house has never been on TV...
LeeLee Grindinger
Furniture Carver
Lee,
BrownBagg just said "trailer trash" neighborhoods often use propane. He didn't say that the use of propane implied "trailer trash", and I'm sure he didn't intend to offend you.
Propane is common in areas where the expense of piping in natural gas exceeds the cost of trucking in propane. Where housing is temporary ("mobile homes", for example), propane tanks would naturally be more prevalent, since installing permanent natural gas lines would be a long-term investment.
I am temporarily "Trailer Trash" and have a large & butt ugly propane tank to go along with it. Delivery day, before I started collecting the White Trash accessories necessary for trailer living. Joe H
Joe, you'd better get some old tires up on that roof or it'll rattle in the wind.
LeeLee Grindinger
Furniture Carver
"You gotta love a place where the houses have wheels and the cars don't."
David, I've always referred those folks a 20/20/20's. A $20,000 bass boat, next to a $20,000 pickup, next to a $20,000 home.
Good numbers on the heating values, though mine are a little different. I contract for LP in the summer, paid $0.85/gallon this year.
Also, for those interested, you can get an underground LP tank. I bought and buried a 500 gallon tank this year as well. Did not particularly like the eyesore. 8' x 3' x 6'deep, nachored it to the bottom with 4" of concrete and rebar loops, nylon straps, before backfilling with sand, top with soil. UG tank cost about $550.
Natural gas has 15% more energy than propane lb for lb. That is per the local Natural gas provider. As for why I joined the TT contingent by using propane... Well here is the cost of getting Natural gas.
In northern Wisconsin it is allowed by the supplier to give 1000 dollars per home/lot for the cost of extending the natural gas pipeline. Here is the expense in my case.
5300$ to run the pipeline from the current endpoint to my place. Every lot in the area gets the 1000 dollar allowance. The hook is you only get the 1000 dollars if you hookup in 3 years time. If you don't hookup then you have to pay the 1000 dollars back to the utility. I could only find 1 taker and 2 possibilities in my neighborhood.
Then you need to have the drop plowed in to the building from the street. $3.50 per foot from the road. Figure 350 foot (in my case) that is $1225 plus my share of the pipeline.
Assume I can get everyone to ante in on the pipeline. Then it is only 1225 that is amortized against the 15 % savings on energy content. 650$ a year in gas is roughly 100 bucks saved per year. At that rate with interest in the investment being 0 I'd look at 12 years to get a payback. Further I'd have to convert the appliances at 200 to 400 bucks each by having a plumber re-orfice the devices.
I'm building new and I found it hard to justify the expense and the orchestration of people.
As for gas vs electric clothes dryer, the savings is real. I don't know the actual savings but it looked like 50% when shopping for appliances. The energy efficiency tags on every appliance tell the story on the selection process.
Using gas to provide heat is smart. Every time you change energy from one type to another (heat to electricity) there is a loss. It is a complicated equation but consider the powerplant that makes a coal fire, heats water, turns a turbine, generates electricity, then transmits it over wires to your house. Realisticly the energy drops to 60% of the produced heat. In my days at Michigan State the alternative energy class I attended figured the best efficiency the MSU plant produced was 80% and that was due to the campus being heated with the waste heat from the generation process. (Turbines use only superheated steam).
Gas is the most efficient process for your dryer.
I gotta go get the beer out of the trans-am before it freezes. It makes a great refrigerator in the spring & fall.
"Natural gas has 15% more energy than propane lb for lb."
Are you sure about that? The oven we currently have is gas, and has been changed 3 times from natural gas to propane when we've moved.
When it's been on propane, we get a heck of a hot flame. On natural gas, we get a little wimpy flame.
Maybe it has something to do with the pressures involved? Anybody know?Pentiums melt in your PC, not in your hand.
Pressure is higher on the propane... I think. However the orfice size is supposed to compensate for that. BTU wise there is more energy. Whether it is lbs or cuft escapes me. But that was a recurring theme from the Natural gas supplier.
So does that mean that my oven is set up wrong?
When using the broiler on propane, you get a flame that covers almost the entire top of the oven. On natural gas, you get a wimpy little flame about an inch long.
There's something under the stove top that you take out and flip over to convert it from one to the other. I think we even (Gasp!) read the directions each time we converted it.The mind is never blank. If it were, how would you know?
Woah on the propane / NG comparisons! Here are the particulars, followed by what really matters.
Propane (pure, but pure propane approximates the LPG that you buy) has 2,590 gross BTU/cubic foot and 21,661 gross BTU/pound. Methane (the largest component in "natural gas") has 1,013 gross BTU/cubic foot and 23,879 gross BTU/pound.
Cost wise, what matters is your cost per BTU (or 100,000 BTU's). A therm (100,000 BTU's) of natural gas costs me $0.38 which is pretty cheap compared to elsewhere. Propane, delivered is about $1.40/gallon or $1.47 per 100,000 BTUs'(there are 95,000 gross BTU in a gallon of LPG. So propane would cost me 3.8 times as much as the natural gas I use. Within a few percent, compare the cost of a gallon of propane to a therm (100 cubic feet) or natural gas. Natural gas always wins.
My electricity is $0.083 / kilowatt-hour. So it costs me $2.43 / 100,000 BTU. More expensive than propane (the case most places unless there is a big hydroelectric dam near you). And much more expensive than natural gas (true everywhere) - 6.4 times for me.
If your stove puts a lot more heat on propane than on natural gas, you didn't do the complete conversion, I believe. Depending on the make and model, you may need to change the orfice, adjust the gas pressure and/or adjust the baffles to admit more/less combustion air. Definitely check for CO in the vicinity and if you get a yellow flame or soot on the pots - STOP - and get it serviced. Too likely that you are spewing carbon monoxide into the house. Most stoves put out very similar heats on NG and propane, sometimes a bit less on propane.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Enlightening facts.
Here is a fun comparison. Your rates are much different than in Wisconsin. The direction is the same in comparison but the numbers are skewed differently.
Alaska Electricity .073 KWH $ 2.17 / 100 KBTU
Wisconsin PS .083 KWH $ 2.43 / 100 KBTU 342% higher than WPS NG
----
Alaska Propane 1.40 / Gal. $1.47 / 100 KBTU
Wisc Propane .93 / Gal. $0.98 / 100 KBTU 38% higher than WPS NG
-----
Alaska Nat. Gas 0.38 / Therm $0.38 / 100 KBTU
Wisconsin PS NG 0.71 / Therm $0.71 / 100 KBTU Baseline Wisconsin
All of these results (in my case) ignore the delivery expense and the monthly fees to be hooked up. Surprisingly there is about 8 bucks each for the gas and the electric but the propane is free delivery.
Depending on the usage there is some incentive to pay the 1200 bucks plus additional setup cost for installation of natural gas here in Wisconsin. In my case it is an uphill battle to get the main line installed. Possibly with more neighbors it will be easier.
Thanks Dave. I love it when someone puts teeth (facts) in a discussion.
Thanks all for the many responses. Looks like propane is it for now.
I don't know what the price of natural gas is. That would take 1000' of trench, through one stream bed and who knows how many rocks. The local plumbing supply has that stainless plastic coated pipe at about the same price as here in Southern Cal, I'll put it on the someday list.
Just bought an electric water heater to add to the trailer, it came with a little 7 gallon gas/electric unit. Built a nice little pink EPS foam house for it at the rear and ran some pex through the tail light.
Froze a case of Hilti brand foam too, didn't seem to have hurt it any. Sure comes out of the gun slow at 30º though.
Thanks, Joe H
Now, I can start my collection of old appliances to spread around the trailer, and keep an eye out for an old Camero to put up on blocks out front. Anything else I need for the yard? Plastic flamingos maybe.....gonna pass on the trash neighbors though.
I've used both, as I have hot water heaters. In both cases, gas is vastly superior (piped city gas is my only experience with the dryers -- both with hot water). It was also cheaper in my cases.
Gas dryers and heaters do a faster job -- faster clothes drying (the electric dryer took forever), faster recovery for the water heater (with the electric heater, we had to pace our showers). Strange, because the BTU ratings didn't seem to indicate such differences. Also, I note that the electric appliances referred to were twenty plus years ago. I don't know if they've gotten better, since I vowed never to use electric again back then.