I’ve heard that, if possible, the best way to go with caulk (either inside or outside) is to prime first and then caulk. That goes for spackling nail holes, too. I’ve seen it done both ways on job sites. I’m currently working on a client’s house who had unprimed Fir windows and doors installed some time this Spring. The siding was also replaced with unprimed (and, by the way, untreated cedar shakes). The guys doing the installation caulked the unprimed shingles around the exterior trim as well as the exterior trim (primed poplar) to the unprimed windows. What is happening now is that the caulk around a number of the windows is failing (has lost it’s adhesion and is peeling off). Is this because these windows and doors were exposed to the weather before they had a chance to be painted? Is it because they should have been primed before the caulk was applied? Or is it a matter of not pushing it into the gap between the exterior trim and the window and door frames?
At any rate, which is the better way to go, if possible? Prime and then caulk, or caulk and then prime? Just wondering how others here think.
Needless to say, my client is not a happy camper. I believe the guys who did the caulking will have to come back out to the house, dig out the failing caulk, and reapply it.
Replies
I prime first, sometimes prime again over the caulk.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
New book alert; Eckhart Tolle "A new earth"
A must read.
Sphere,Yes, as a paint contractor for over thirty five years, I, too, always prime first! And, if you spackle after priming, you do have to at least spot prime all your spackle. Priming over your caulk certainly doesn't hurt! Guys who install windows and siding generally don't prime the wood before they install. Obviously, that added step would be very time consuming, but, I believe, it would be the better way to go.Thanks for your feedback. It will be interesting to hear from several others and see where they come out.
the proper sequence:1) Prime first2) Never, never, never let siders or framers caulk...unless you want a big blob of caulking with a finger ran down the middle.Framers do a lot of thinks well, but as a general rule caulking isn't one of them..it's usually an after thought
Barry E-Remodeler
Barry,Thanks for the post. Well, too bad someone wasn't there to stop the siders from caulking. From what I've seen, I'd say these guys aren't any different.So, aside from aesthetics, is caulk on unprimed wood less likely to adhere as long as it would on primed wood? That's my concern fro this poor woman. Would it be better, if adhesion has been compromised, to sand it off, prime the window frames, and caulk again?
yes' jim
redoak<is caulk on unprimed wood less likely to adhere as long as it would on primed wood?>The answer is maybe. A lot depends on what they used for caulk as well as what material was being caulked. but as a general rule caulking drys out and is more prone to cracking on unprimed wood.<Would it be better, if adhesion has been compromised, to sand it off, prime the window frames, and caulk again?>I wouldn't say the adhesion has been compromised, everything else being equal it mainly has a shorter lifespan. Would I cut it all out? Probably not unless it was showing signs of failure. There are many houses out there caulked the same way that are doing okay.I would worry more about the quality of the caulking material over being on unprimed wood
Barry E-Remodeler
Ditto.
I wouldn't make an issue of it. Bottom line is it's done and undoing it will be a whole lot of work that someone has to pay for. Do you want to pay for it and take too long to get your job done? Or do you want to take too long to get your job done and cost too much? Especially considering that the goof-up is somebody else's.
Just git the job done and everyone will be happy. As for the ugly caulking job and whether it fails or not, that reflects on the carpenter, not you. --------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
Ted,You're probably right, although it does make me feel a bit uneasy about going over a #### job that will probably fail sooner rather than later.
Polyurethane? It probably won't fail. :)
The thing about caulking before or after priming is one of those situations where it boils down to personal preference. I prefer to prime first more to err on the side of caution, as opposed to there being one right way to do it. I prefer the carpenters don't caulk or putty because I prefer to do it my own way. But if it's already done, I'm not going to dig it all out and do it over again.
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Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
Edited 5/30/2008 10:10 am by Ted W.
I'm with you:I'd prefer to err on the side of caution. And, I sure as heck don't want anyone else doing the spackling or the caulking. If it's done poorly, an excellent paint job won't hide it.
You bring up a valid point. What caulk is used ? acylics and urethanes are way different than silicones and tri polys.
Worthy of a thread itself.
So called Painter' Caulk like Alex and ( damm brain fade) are gonna behave a lot more like finish caulk, than , say ( ok, White Lightning, brain is back) SP-1, or packing caulk.
I think Big stretch (latex) is a good to middling good for both. If I was looking for finish slick, Geocel or Lexel is hard to beat, both paintable with oil or latex, but read the cure times.
I've not used Silicone in a very long time, I feel caulk needs to be reversable, or not, no inbetween, and silicone never seemed to be friendly that way.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
Sphere,Not familiar with some of the caulks you mention. I've generally used Alex on exteriors prior to painting. Just read up on Big Stretch. Looks like a better product than Alex. Noticed that it simply requires a dry surface; doesn't mention priming first. I'll look for it. I'm pretty sure H.D. doesn't care it, or any of the Seattle paint stores I frequent.Lexel on exteriors?
yessiree, Lexel is great.
I'm in the camp that holds the caulk as a god , and you get what you pay for. Like i said, this is worthy of a review/debate/thread on its own, not just proper sequence.
I'm apologetic that right now, I am under the influence of some pretty hard pain meds, and cannot structure my thoghts as well as I'd like.
I may be wanting to discuss this at lenght as soon as I can focus more clearly. Keep in mind, the caulk is a tool, not a fix, nor a hide...it is needed to allow other materials to perform as warranted. Caulk is what makes the space station work in a vacuume with wild temp swings and elemantal expansions.
Food for thought..Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
I'm with you, I don't use silicone at all anymore. There's to many superior products on the market.
Barry E-Remodeler
I still have some sausage tubes from Limerick Nuke Plant in Pa.
Requires a Milwaukee gun, nasty, NASTY, stuff..100% pure silly cone..somethin like 500 years life span..you wanna see nasty..this is it..NASA uses the same goop.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
Barry,Excellent point: what caulk is being used? I think the stuff these guys used is a urethane caulk, not Alex. Makes sense that caulk over unprimed wood might shorten it's lifespan due to accelerate drying. I didn't think about that angle. Some of it will have to be cut out because it's already peeling off in some areas. Seems those areas had direct exposure to the weather, i.e., no overhang, Western exposure, etc.
Like all the others said, prime first.
As an all-around handyman I know that when I do carpentry for someone else to paint, that I should not caulk or fill nail holes. And when I'm painting someone elses carpentry, it drives me nuts when they go and cauld/putty, for just this reason.
Also, I find it a lot easier on my eyes to see all the joints and nail holes when everything is primed.
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See some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
Ted,I'm in complete agreement with everything you shared. As I asked Barry (see above), is caulk on unprimed wood less likely to hold up as long as caulk on primed wood. Do you know? The job these guys did with the caulk is really something to behold. You'd think that maybe they got their six year olds to caulk that day. It's like slightly controlled finger painting!Thanks for the post.
I'm sure if adhesion is compromised, but if the caulk shrinks, after a while you get a line of rotting dark wood in its place.
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I seem to be in the minority, but I caulk first. Fill the nail/screw holes with the lightweight white filler and a 1" putty knife, and nice thin caulk on the joints.
The more paint you get over the caulk/fill, the better it will fill and blend. Two color coats (or horrors, one) will sometimes telegraph-through fills. Primer and two coats hides it better (50% better?).
This is about four hundred different pieces, and I don't expect anything opening up. It is all PVC and Hardi, though. Still do the same on new and old wood, though.
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Forrest
Edited 5/30/2008 6:49 am ET by McDesign
Nice prep and paint work. I think Hardi may be a bit different than wood as far as caulk and spackle go? Seems far more stable. Accepts paint really well. I stay away from that one-coat lightweight spackle cause you can't sand it at all. Someone told me that part of it's composition includes ground glass? Which may explain it's resistance to sanding. I've recently run into a painter who uses a modified Bondo-in-a-tube product (by Bondo) that he squeezes over nailholes and sands before priming. It dries hard like Bondo but doesn't require a hardener. He likes the idea of of a hard solid surface covering the nail holes. It's dark red, though, which makes it a pain to cover with primer.
red.... 1st.... every caulk and type of caulk is different
so ... read the installation instructions on the tube
2d
generally speaking the only sequence is :
bonding caulks... unprimed surfaces ( like most urethane caulks, some bondo and filler types )
all other caulks... prime, then fill & caulk, possibly reprime... then finish
unprimed surfaces suck the volatile components out of the caulk , the caulk shrinks , then pulls away.... creating an unpaintable surface.. so the paint fails... and the caulk fails
the primer, adheres to the wood, and creates a base coat for the caulk.... the caulk fills the voids creating a paintable surface
the caulk also has greater ability to expand and contract without failing... again.. some caulks are better than others
our minimum caulk is Alex 35 year....... some applicatios we use DAP 50 year
so..prime, fill,sand, caulk , paint
Mike, I disagree with the Alex life expectancy
the rest of yer post is right on.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
duane... why i oughta...
look tiger ... i didn't say it LASTS 35 years...
i said we use the 35 year caulk
cause it's better than the 25 year caulk.... they call it 35... i have no idea how long it lasts.... YETMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
FWIW there are 3 Alex Acyrlic caulks.Painters - 25 yr
Plus - 35 yrs
Ultra - 50 years..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I just looked and maybe it's
DAP¯ ALEX PLUS¯ Acrylic Latex Caulk Plus Silicone
Superior quality, multi-purpose acrylic latex caulk plus silicone. Highly flexible and durable. Excellent adhesion. Cured caulk is mildew resistant. Interior/exterior use. Paintable. Water clean-up. 35 Year Durability Guarantee. Exceeds ASTM Specification C 834.
Any verdict on DAP ALEX Plus (latex with silicon)? I'm using that. I used a bit of DAP ultra 230 or such, but at nearly $5 a tube vs $2 for the Plus (and available at Walmart) the 35 year Alex Plus seems to be decent enough. I used some along the trim to siding joint of a dormer last fall, and did not get to priming/painting. This spring it looked good enough to paint over. When I paint within a few days it seems to hold up ok. I'll know more in a couple of years. But I sure hope I don't have to redo this. I'm filing gaps all along the gabel ends of 10 different areas that were not done when the house was built
colorado
Well, I wouldn't use it outside and especially in areas prone to movement or with dissimilar materials.
It is easy to work with and looks good.
However, over a couple years if you're lucky it is going to lose what little stretch is has.
Cheap now, pay later....................................
Pretty sure the Plus (or its predecessor) is what we used about 25 years ago when we resided. The caulk is still good.