I am in the process of building a home in Maine. Yesterday, when the
tile installers arrived at the site they found that the 1/2″ plywood
underlayment (over 3/4″ advantech OSB) had not been sufficiently screwed
down. The underlayment had been screwed at intervals of 8-12″ into the
floor joists only (19.2″ o/c). The tile installers have refused to
install tile unless it is screwed every 6-8″.
While I agree with the tile installers, my builder disagrees, and claims
that this is how they have always attached the underlayment. He claims
that it is fine because it is glued down, not just screwed. He has
refused to screw the underlayment as the installers have requested.
What is the proper technique? TIA
Replies
If the subfloor is screwed down every 8" and THEN underlayment is an additional 1/2" and GLUED AND SCREWED.....what more could one ask for???? Sounds pretty impressive to me
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Perhaps I was not explicit enough. The subfloor is nailed and glued, I am not certain as to the nail spacing. The 1/2" plywood underlayment is screwed and glued at 8-12" intervals on top of the joists ONLY, meaning that there is actually 19" between the screws (joists are 19.2" o/c). Hopefully this clears things up.
Thanks.
So why not just shoot some more screws in.better safe then sorry. How long could it possibly take?It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I have always screwed subfloors off every four to six inches. Hitting the joists also very important. You can't do too good of a job when it comes to doing your base layers. If you mess up under your finish floor, you are finished! Doug
Glue and 6-8" is right.
I never could understand why a contractor would fight for the right to do substandarad work just because, "we've always done it this way"
I agree totally. Another aspect of this issue is that the warrantees on some floor coverings and the adhesives formulated for them will be in force only if specific underlayments, fasteners and fastener layout are used.
I don't know if that's the case here with tile (what kind of tile?) but how tough can it be to do it right and move on...sheesh!
The APA (American Plywood Association) requires their products to be screwed/nailed every 6" in the field, and every 3" to 4" on the edges and seams. According to them, if it is not done this way, it is NOT done right. Also, they don't care if it is glued or not, so long as the FASTENERS are spaced as noted.
I'd tell the contractor to get with the program and stop using excuses. I would do the same as the tile guys, and refuse to install my products on substandard substrate.
Just an opinion...James DuHamel
J & M Home Maintenance Service
"Southeast Texas"
I agree that the simple solution is to add more screws and make the tile guys happy.
I disagree tha they are really needed.IF YOU GLUED PROPERLY!!
In my experience floor installers are as finicky as painters.
Why couldnt the tile guy just put in more screws.
I realize he has to warranty his work but if you tell him its ready then you have accepted that responsibility. If you and he both understand this then he should shut up and get to work!
Too many times guys like this will come one a job looking for an excuse to be somewhere else.
If he is booked up and needs to be elsewhere thats fine, just say so.
but if he just want to go fishin or to the bar then ....
Sorry if I ranting here but it seems that this is becoming a common problem for alot of the specialty trades.
I come to a job with a trailer full of stuff so I can get it done! not looking for an excuse to get a twelvepack and tke the rest of the day off.
Well I'm done now!!
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
T,
If it were Me, myself, and I doing this job, we three would just go ahead and put the screws in. But maybe this tile setter has done [lenty of work behind this builder before and is sick of doing his work for him.
Years ago, I was subbing roofs on condo jobs in CO and one builder in particular used the crappiest crews he could find to sub his framing out to. As much as a third of the roof sheathing would not be nailed off when I got there to shingle.
First time - no problemo! I just nail it off and shingle, then mention it casually to him that I had done him a favor.
Next unit was worse - I still nailed it off and billed him for the time, forcefully pointing it out.
Third time bill came with a warning that I was getting sick of doing their work for them and wouldn't do it again.
Fourth unit - I walked off the job saying call me when it's ready.
Stanmdards tile setters contract calls for the installer to inspect the substrate to see that it is prepared to standards of the xxx association and notify the responsible party if it is not right. If he installs over substandard prep work it means that he has accepted it as OK and he is then liable for damages due to someone elses sloppy work if there is a failure. This tile setter may be a **** depending on the way he goes about doing this but his standarads are right up to snuff and the 'builder' is far from professional.
BTW, the right time to set the screws is when the glue is fresh as the underlayment is being installed. That way the compression assures a more continuous contact between layers so that the whole becomes one, eliminating minor movements which are the bane of tile installations. same principle as using clampps in a cabinet quality glue up - you are trying for full contact - otherwise the glue is acting as a cushion as much as an adhesive weld.
Excellence is its own reward!
After further discussion with the builder he told me to screw it myself if I wanted it screwed down every 6-8", or they would do it at an hourly rate of $33 plus cost of the screws.
I ended up doing it myself.
I also recieved some literature from the Tile Council of America stating that 6" along the seams and 8" in between is required.
Thanks for your replies guys.
"After further discussion with the builder he told me to screw it myself if I wanted it screwed down every 6-8", or they would do it at an hourly rate of $33 plus cost of the screws. "
Did he tell you to screw it yourself or was more like "screw you?"
Did he provide any authority for his position that it was properly fastened? Seems to me there is plenty of authority that he's wrong (e.g., APA)
I'd consider asking him one last time to support his claim that he had done it correctly and if he fought it, I'd consider firing his a*s. What else is he screwing up on (or, not screwing up on, to be more accurate?) If I did that, I'd (i) talk to a lawyer first, (ii) file complaints with the BBB (if he's a member) and any local trade associations he belongs too. Try calling the local investigative news teams. This kind of issue doesn't sound like it has the flash they want, but ya never know.
Oh, yeah, conside hiring a good home inspector or another contractor to go through it ASAP. Like I said, he's probably messed up some other stuff. Don't expecct the local building inspectors to have caught everything. Thye miss stuff from time to time, some of 'em are on the take. A jerk contractor who won't make a small effort to keep a client (and subcontractor happy) strikes me as the sort who might have a line item in his bid for helping the local inspector make some payment on the new boat.
Of course, this all assumes you haven't been a jerk, yourself, in dealing with the contractor up to now!
And contractors wonder why they get attitude from the public!
Edited 6/2/2002 8:48:02 AM ET by Bob Walker
I can't wait to remodel some off these screwd glued tattood nailed floors. Probably have to tear'em out down to the joists. Maybe get em up with napalm. I got a good method now, cut it up in squares, long crowbar pry up, get 2x4 under edgeways, block under and stomp...... underlayment goes flying, hit's helper in the face.
no turn left unstoned
As a contractor in Tennessee I require the 1/2" plywood be stapled to the advantech at 4" oc with 1 1/2" staples. In the past we nail it ever 4", along with the screws and glue, but found staples tie the to subfloors togeather better.
charlie
You can add another spec to your list: ANSI A108 spec (standard on which the TCA Handbook is based) calls for the ply to be nailed off every 6" along the edges and every 8" through the field. Note that this is for a tile installation directly over plywood (i.e. no backerboard under the tile). If this is the subfloor only and your tile guy will be installing backerboard as an underlayment over the ply, then I would defer to APA requirements.
Your tile guy is right, and IMO it's builder's responsibility to get it where it needs to be.